Best vintage DD turntables from the 70's and 80's?

@best-groove

Easiest to place the picture of the wiring block "borrowed picture"
on the system page with my TT-101.

@totem395   

well, I've seen your photos, the transformer is already set up to accept a couple of voltages, just move the wainscot; I thought it was also set for 220-240V

THORNES 125 DUDE jump on one ASAP!!

@best-groove

I thought it was also set for 220-240V

Not that I'm aware of.

@totem395  are we speaking of a step down transformer? If so, I've got one for the luxman.
Thanks for the insight,Brent

  are we speaking of a step down transformer? 

Nope, the internal table transformer and it voltage taps.

Thanks @totem395 
Is this something JP will take care of @chakster  internal table transformer and it voltage taps.

If it's in his care I would think so.
If your speaking with him say hello for me its been some time.

@totem395  will do. I'll call him once it arrives. I'm lucky to have it in JP's hands. 

TT-101 going right to JP Jones from here in a huge bullet proof package. My sample is working, excellent condition, here i’m checking the pitch for the last time. After complete restoration it will be Brent’s first flying saucer (I have another one for myself here).

@chakster as you know, I’ve got the Victor 7045 and 7082 waiting here in Museum and Victor carts. It will be a saucer invasion. Very excited to sit the TT101 next to Luxman with the Sony PUA-7 arm XL50 cart and the FR-64x with PMC3 cart.

Finally, I can login. 

None of the units I've worked on have had selectable transformer taps.  It may be that the Japanese domestic units did not while some of the export units did.  At any rate, it looks like Totem may have a rare unit. 

According to this gentleman’s video-he is swapping motor and power supply on a Luxman PD-441 Which purportedly uses the same motor, the motors manufacturer is Mitsubishi.....
https://youtu.be/EE_rPAXTwTI
thanks,
johnny

You have got some great suggestions on vintage DD turntables.  I  owned a couple and totally enjoy them but I think you would also have alot of fun if you also pursued a vintage idler drive table.  Garrard or Lenco.  Give it a shot.  Who knows you might even like the idler drive better. 

According to this gentleman’s video-he is swapping motor and power supply on a Luxman PD-441 Which purportedly uses the same motor, the motors manufacturer is Mitsubishi.....

Wow, Mitsubishi.
Another Japanese giant. 

I'll share pics as soon as my TT-101 gets back from JP. He's making it new again. 

@knollbrent , I recently picked up a Luxman PD-444 and have installed my Sony PUA-7 & PUA-9 on it.
I have yet to attempt to fit my FR-64fx with b-60 base- it may not fit on the right side….
sounds spectacular! I have never been more happy with a turntable. Now I need to start letting go of stuff….

I have yet to attempt to fit my FR-64fx with b-60 base- it may not fit on the right side….

It will, on whatever side, I’m using 64s with B60 and 64FX with N60.
Look on the right turntable in my system

I recently picked up a Luxman PD-444 and have installed my Sony PUA-7

PUA-7 is perfect for Luxman, this is my ex PUA-7 I shipped to Brent few years ago.
Here is my system about 5 years ago with PUA-7 and Lustre GST-801, I’m still using Lustre

If you have original PUA-7 (sold as separate unit) you have to drill additional hole in LUX armbase, here is mine in process. This tiny hole is on the right side of the SONY template.

@dronepunk If you recently picke up LUX PD-444 you need SAES SS-300 mat or MICRO SEIKI CU-180 mat. Ask if you need help with those mats. 

What carts are you mounting on the Sony arms @dronepunk? 

JP, Perhaps you don't recall, but my own TT101 that you diagnosed and repaired does have selectable power transformer primary taps, and one of the choices is 120V.  I think the other choice is 100V.  It was someone else's opinion that units with switchable AC voltage choice were made to be sold to US servicemen serving in Japan back in the 80s.  That makes sense to me.

I like LUX PD-444 because it's so easy to swap tonearms and adjust them. Battle between high mass and light mass tonearms on the same turntable is fascinating. This week my low compliance Miyajima (Edison) MC is next to recently unboxed high compliance SONY XL-50 MM. Tonearms are Lustre GST-801 (heavy) vs. Denon DA-401 (light). Here is the image.   

How about this mega rare ONKYO PX-100M ?

It was 500 000 Yen in 1981 and only about 100 units made.

One available now for 19 900 EURO here in mint condition :)

I think it’s one of the most beautiful DD turntables. Gunmetal platter and excellent design.

*read more about technical aspect

Why no one can make stuff like this today? It’s state of the art design in my opinion. German catalog here.

One of the few JP may not own AFAIK.

Even €20k for a limited edition high-end DD made in 1981 (~100 units) is better than ungly modern belt drive junk I see on the market today for higher price!

That Onkyo has a coreless motor with no “cocking”, according to the brochure. That’s a comfort. Beautiful machine. Resembles the Brinkmann DDs in appearance. Brinkmann also use a coreless motor.

@chakster While I agree with you, I've always wondered why Micro Seiki built direct drives on this exalted level as OEM for other companies - like this Onkyo, the Kyocera, some Luxman models and allegedly also the Yamaha 'gigantic and tremendous' tables  - but never under their own name. The market for DD's - even the more ambitious and  expensive ones - was much bigger than for belt drives in those days. 

BTW Audioscope is notorious for their absurd prices, so €20k should not be regarded as any sort of realistic market value. But then again it never appears on the open market, so they can charge whatever they feel like. I'd love to hear this table, but not at any price!

His prices are high, but where else you can buy a MINT condition unit from 1981 if only 100 made.

Even if his prices are too high the units on his site are still better than most of the new turntables at the same price. And his vintage turntables are minty fresh like they are made yesterday. Great opportunity for rich people to buy amazing stuff :) 

Onkyo is nice!

His prices are high, but where else you can buy a MINT condition unit from 1981 if only 100 made.

In my country!
An enthusiast owns it and even put it up for sale recently but it is assumed that it received ridiculous offers and stayed at the owner’s home.

What is the evidence that Micro-Seiki built the Onkyo, Yamaha, Kyocera, and "some" Luxman DD turntables? I don’t doubt it, but I am wondering about the source of the information. Does Vintage Knob, for example, endorse the idea? While we are at it, does the Kyocera DD, with which I am totally unfamiliar, play in this highest end league?

Based on my reading, personal experience, and many visits to Japan, my list of the best would include, in no particular order: Sony PSX9, Yamaha GT2000X, Technics SP10 Mk3, Kenwood L07D, Luxman PD441, Pioneer Exclusive P3, Denon DP100M and DN308, and I’d be willing to add the Onkyo PX100M on faith. What have I missed? Victor TT101/801, I guess. Honorable mention to Denon DP80/75 and a few Pioneer models below the P3. Anyone want to add to this "ultimate" list, without compromising too much?

Just checked Vintage Knob.  According to that authority, M-S did indeed build two turntables for Kyocera, and those are the only two Kyocera turntables deemed worthy of mention on VK.  However, they are both belt-driven and sport ceramic platters which some of us don't like.  Anyway, because they are belt-driven, Kyocera cannot make the list.

@lewm    in your personal list don't forget the Nakamichi TX1000, Nakamichi Dragon CT, Denon DP100M
Emt 950, 948 and 938 for example.

It’s a little more complicated than simply Micro made some of this brand or that brand’s tables/drives.
In fact some Micro drives were made by Victor albeit not the very
top models simply a matter of convience.

Its also known in the case of the GT-2000 that Victor’s speed control
engineer was brought in on the project don’t recall if the rest of
the drive was all Victor. There was the post by J. Carr way back and on a Japanese site.

So plenty of overlap all over the place more than we will ever
find documented.

I'm sure that is what we were told by the Luxman rep; that Teac manufactured the motors to Luxman's specifications. Having said that, I am not sure that it is true. For some reason the owners frowned upon sales folks disassembling expensive gear.

But it does make sense. The PD-441/444 motor does bear more than a passing resemblance to that used in the original Teac TN-400.

Serviced PD-441 this guy claimed the motor is made by Mitsubishi , here is the video. 
Before that several member of this forum claimed it could be made by Victor, Micro, or even by Teac. 

Lewm, I don't have any first hand evidence, but this is claimed on numerous forum discussions and websites, including vintageknob. I shouldn't have stated it as fact the way I did, but there is at least some circumstantial evidence. According to vintageknob the Nakamichi TX-1000 was also built by Micro to Nakamichi's specifications. As for 'some' Luxmans, the PD-300, 310 and 350 belt drives were almost certainly built by Micro (hard to miss considering the many design similarities), but it might be the case with the PD-444 direct drive as well. 

Also according to the vintageknob there were only a handful of manufacturers of DD motors at the time, which were used by all Japanese brands. Micro was basically a precision mechanical engineering company, so it is very unlikely they built DD motors or speed control electronics themselves.

I remember reading a TAS article some years ago describing the Japanese audio ecosystem, which over many decades evolved into a network of companies and designers closely working together. So plenty of overlap indeed as Totem395 suggests. It would be interesting to read a history some day on how this ecosystem operated and who were the designer teams responsible for the top DD tables we hold so dear.

best-groove, I did include Denon DP100M.  I left off the Nakamichi turntables, because many say that apart from the brilliant LP centering device, they are not such great performers, but I would put ONE on the list of the very best, if you like.  As for EMT, they are not Japanese, and again, please pick ONE for this exclusive list.  Was the 950 the best of that lot?

Matsushita was a Japanese giant that bought the majority share of Victor starting in 1953 but pretty much let Victor (JVC) run itself. Victor was a big engineering firm, they are the ones that designed and built the very first quartz locked direct drive motors and later went on to design and build high end video gear. JVC was a pioneer and at the technological forefront of many technologies.
I think it’s safe to assume that Matsushita was the manufacture of the motors that Victor used as well as Technics. They would have been used in most if not all of the Micro Seiki product line as well. Micro Seiki was a precision machine shop/manufacturing facility, not really into electronics.
Technics was a marketing name made up by Matsushita to sell consumer electronics, it’s not hard to see where they got the technology to build their quartz locked direct drive tables from.
Someone really needs to tie all of these Japanese company’s history together. Many of the people that know are already gone and the rest are elderly. A few years ago I read a lengthy article where a writer had done a lot of research and had stitched together a lot of it but it had a lot of unanswered questions remaining. Now I can’t remember where I read it.
If anyone remembers that, could you please post a link to it? Thanks
BillWojo

  I left off the Nakamichi turntables, because many say that apart from the brilliant LP centering device, they are not such great performers,

There are too many variables in judging the sound of turntables especially as regards the combinations of the cartridge and the arms as well as the quality of these; it's hard to think and believe that anyone can recognize how a turntable sounds if they don't transfer arm and cartridge between one base and another to make comparisons.
It is likely that the TX1000 is complicated to repair in the event of a fault, but that someone may point out that it is nothing exceptional, I repeat the above.
The title indicates the best vintage DD without indicating the nationality, for this reason I have reported the Emt.

Serviced PD-441 this guy claimed the motor is made by Mitsubishi , here is the video.

Ohh not not...that engine is terribly similar to Matsushita engines but so similar to the point that I'm sure I'm betting my million against your penny that it's made by Matsushita itself.
I think the reviewer confused the Matsushita logo with the Mitsubishi Logo which are pretty damn similar.

If you're not thrilled with the GR (you say you love it but are willing to phase it out) I don't know if I would suggest going for a vintage 1200; that would be a step down in my opinion and not getting you to new frontiers because the tables are more similar than different, unless you're really looking to tinker with one that you're not going to be heartbroken about if the mods don't go well.  The belt drive Linn LP12's are a tinkerer's dream as well, if you wanted a new driving experience.

Based on my reading, personal experience, and many visits to Japan, my list of the best would include, in no particular order:

Sony PSX9,
Yamaha GT2000X,
Technics SP10 Mk3,
Kenwood L07D,
Luxman PD441,
Pioneer Exclusive P3,
Denon DP100M and DN308,

and I’d be willing to add the Onkyo PX100M on faith. What have I missed? Victor TT101/801, I guess. Honorable mention to Denon DP80/75 and a few Pioneer models below the P3. Anyone want to add to this "ultimate" list, without compromising too much?

@lewm Good to see LUX PD-441 (small one) in your list, but why not PD-444 (big one) ? Or it was a typo? 

Typo. Sorry 

Biker, did you mean “a tinkerers nightmare “, in reference to LP12?

From a 1200GR I’d consider an SP10R.
Bur also you’re quite wrong to think the vintage examples are all the same. They vary quite a bit in terms of motors, servo mechanism, platter mass, bearings, plinths, and suspension.

best-groove, To further complicate the history, if you want to nail down the inter-relationships, the coreless motors used in the Kenwood L07D and the Victor TT101, to name only two, owe a great deal to the original Dual coreless motor used in Dual DD turntables that were among their first efforts.  In fact, the story I read is that Dual sued Kenwood over copyright infringement, and Kenwood had to very slightly re-design their coreless motor so as to appease Dual.  Since Dual is German, it is likely they also influenced the EMT DD motors, if those were coreless.  You can still see the same basic design in the Brinkmann coreless DD motors of today.

Dual coreless motor used in Dual DD turntables that were among their first efforts. In fact, the story I read is that Dual sued Kenwood over copyright infringement, and Kenwood had to very slightly re-design their coreless motor so as to appease Dual.

I did not know this story, anything can happen no wonder even if in a coreless motor there is not much to modify after having produced it if other brands intend to make it; did you know that Papst made the DD motors for Dual?
Now it could be that Dual designed the DD motor completely in-house and then entrusted the realization to Papst, as it could be that Papst designed and built the motor and Dual decided to use it; these are all hypotheses my where there is no absolute certainty.

Jonathan Weiss demonstrate DD turntable motor from 1927 (Western Electric) in this video.

Great video @cha

He described Belt Drives in 3 words :)) 

Empire

I like my Dual 701 but it's not on par with the high end stuff mentioned in this thread