Best vintage DD turntables from the 70's and 80's?

@chakster Yes I have a Micro Seiki cu180 on mine and centering works properly. The Micro Seiki CU180 does wonders to the sound. I had custom wooden armboards made for the table. Had a Fidelity Research FR66s and a Dynavector 507/2 on it. Served me really well. Will be sad to see it go. Will be looking for a good home for it.

Shane (Downunder), Good on you! Great array of turntables and I’m jealous of your P 3. I recently had a copper mat custom made for my L07D and the improvement in SQ was beyond my expectation.

Dear @lewm : Vintage knob:

"""  And, as often, Micro's direct-drive motors came from... Victor/JVC   """

JVC was added by me.

R.

Technics SL-D2 direct drive semi automatic. My daily ’driver’.

Pioneer PL-600 direct drive full automatic (The silver/metal deck)

Pioneer PL-630 direct drive full automatic

The Denon with rosewood plinth that looks like a cross between a simon game and a flying saucer looks like a standout from that era.  

The best bang for the buck  TT's ever made were the Sony PS-X5, 6 and 7 !.Still a very good table after 40 years if you can find one with working electrics or are handy with same .

Raul, thanks for that quote from Vintage Knob. Perhaps I failed to read that whole sentence when I consulted VK but as I recall their blurb on the PD444 stated the model number of the M-S motor used by Luxman in that table. I didnt note that it was sourced from Victor/JVC, if that’s the case..

I hate automatic turntables, especially the vintage automatic turntables.
If the owner of such turntables is not a DIYer then they must be serviced, refurbished, adjusted, calibrated etc. Many automatic turntables are broken, the electornics does not work well. How much the owners have to pay to restore them ?

The only automatic turntable which i’d like to have is this cute little 12inch size Technics SL-10 (and fully programmable SL-15 with 205 mk4 pmount cartridge), but ONLY if they are already refurbished by some specialista in Japan. Nice for a kitchen system.

Serious vintage turntables must be manual in my opinion. I just don’t trust this automatic sh*t

Automatic turntables are difinitely not the best turntables.

True, That’s why Sony made the PS-X5 a manual , X6 a semi and X7 an auto .I gave  my X-5 away and it still is running fine at 45 years of age !

@chakster the definition of “the best” is quite subjective. In my own subjective viewpoint, I prefer semi-automatic turntables that return the tonearm to its rest at the end of play. The mechanism that furnished that function on my prized (and slightly customized) Technics SL-1700mk2 turntables uses an optical detector, and therefore that part is relatively immune to wear and tear. I do openly admit that the mechanism which it invokes is mechanical, and involves a rubber drive belt that is prone to requiring periodic replacement. That is a small concession as far as I’m concerned for the convenience of semi-automatic operation. Admittedly, my aural faculties have diminished somewhat, so my sound quality needs might not be as high as that of others, but I have never enjoyed such sonic bliss before with lesser equipment. 

@sleepwalker65 

Have you seen this AT Safety Raiser ? Brand new device from Audio-Technica for lazy guys: "Designed to mount on a manual turntable, the AT6006R Safety Raiser automatically lifts the tonearm at the end of a record, protecting the stylus from damage."

I think it's nice option for manual turntables. 

I wonder how it works. It does seem like something useful.

sleepwalker65,

You mentioned that semi-automatic mechanism uses belts. Was that what Technics used to do? You got me worried, I have SL-Q2, low-fi by standards of serious listeners and have never replaced anything. I was, obviously stupidly, imagining there were some cogwheels doing the work.

When it comes to reliability, some thirty+ years ago, the stop mechanism ceased to work and arm would not return. I had to start and stop it with on/off button. It lasted for 6 months, maybe even a little more, and then it started working again for no apparent reason. It worked this afternoon, too. The turntable is close to 40 years old so I figure if I do need to replace some belt now and then it goes for another 40, I am set for life. Literally.

Unless your LP is in terrible condition, I don't see how letting the stylus ride in the run-out grooves for a half a minute or so, while you overcome your intertia and get up to change the LP, is going to hurt it.  So, I agree with Chakster.  I do like having a remote volume control, so I can turn down the gain whilst I prepare to rise from my listening seat for that chore.  That way, the speakers are protected from any transients.

I have never been excited about automatic things near my records and cartridges, actually I can´t trust computers either : )

@glupson, the SL-Q2 has a different mechanism than the SL-1700mk2 to raise and return the tonearm at end of play. I have the factory service manuals for both, and I’ll look it up for you. Yours might just need some cleaning and new grease on those moving parts. 

@chakster  that AT Safety Raiser looks intriguing. It doesn’t say how it works, so I suppose you manually “set” or “load” the mechanism and when the tonearm bumps into the “antenna” it triggers the mechanism to release and lift the tonearm? That would be a must-have for me, if I ever purchase a manual turntable. 

I bought my Denon DP-60L in 1984, a direct drive, automatic turntable. It had a Grace F-9e and sounded fantactic. It still does. The only change is I have a Sound-Smith Ruby OCL replacement stylus in the Grace and higher quality ICs to the pre. It's not as good as my VPI Prime Signature with a Sound-Smith Helios, but quite listenable.
Rollin

chakster

Have you seen this AT Safety Raiser ? Brand new device from Audio-Technica for lazy guys: ...

Wow, everything old is new again. This looks like the exact same "Safety Raiser" that AT made back in the -70s. It is a spring-loaded device.

Cleeds. I still have my Safety Raiser from the 70's. It never worked. The Thorens Q-up model was much cheaper and works great. Mine was $8.00 when I bought mine.http://www.thequp.com/

Interesting rwwear, I bought a Thorens Q-Up when they were introduced.  I could never get mine adjusted properly for tension so it either failed to
lift the arm or would roughly fling it upwards.  I no longer remember which arm I was using at the time.

Overall, my first stereo system included a Dual 1009, though I didn't use the stacking feature, only the auto start and stop.  My second table was an AR-XA and every one I've owned over the decades since had been manual.  It's no big deal when you're used to it. ;^)

the AT6006R Safety Raiser:
This is how it works , explained by Michael Fremer

  

@chakster that video cleared up some of my questions about the AT safety raiser. I would want one for certain if I owned a manual turntable. 

yep, that the only automatic part that some of us may need when fall to sleep in the chair while listening an LP :)  Remote control for the amp volume control is another nice option. 

I use a Denon DP52, with an AT cartridge.  It works great.

@glupson, the service manual shows an arm return mechanism like that of the “lesser” semi-auto Technics turntables of the late 70’s and ‘80’s. The mechanism is driven by a small gear on the platter spindle and engaged either mechanically by the arm pivot contacting a lever when the end of play is reached, or by a solenoid that is triggered by the stop button on the plinth. The SL-Q2’s automatic mechanism probably shares several parts in common with the lower end belt drive units, so parts and donor units should be plentiful on fleabay.  

If neither works reliably, I would first examine the spindle gear and the much larger main gear for missing teeth. If only the stop button is intermittent, try lubricating the solenoid plunger. I believe you can download an electronic copy of the service manual from the vinyl engine site. If you are unable to locate it, I can scan it to PDF and email it to you. 

Back in the late 70's, I was selling audio. We had some decent DD tables. Among my favorites were the Marantz 6300's and it's successor the 6350. Both were beautifully built and finished and featured an end of record auto lift/shut off. The usual S shaped tone arms were as low mass as the design allowed and had very low resonance. Also cool were the Sansui SR 929 and the Pioneer PL 670. The Pioneer seemed to have the best tonearm.

I mis-wrote. I meant the Pioneer PL 650. The 670 is a more recent P-mount low-ish end table.

sleepwalker65,

Thank you for your answers. I copied them as a separate file for future reference.

Luckily, for now, everything works but I feel that an old turntable, or anything old for that matter, is like a car. It runs until it does not and you should not be caught by surprise. That story about stop/return ceasing function was about thirty years ago and it fixed itself and has never been a problem ever since. I have no idea what Kryptonite these turntables were made of, but if my lowly SL-Q2 still works no wonder higher grade models are exemplary.

Thanks again, I truly appreciate it.

@knollbrent

’Anyone have the Pioneer PL-70L II?’

Actually I do and can recommend it highly. It was part of a Japan only series of three models. The PL-30L II and PL-50L II were the smaller ones with 9" tonearms, the PL-70 II was bigger with a 12" version. One might say that these tables were ’trickled down’ from the big P3 and P10 Exclusive tables. The styling and in particular the tonearms are very similar.

The PL-70L II replaced a Denon DP-75 (with Denon DK-330 plinth and Denon DA-309 tonearm). I guess as far as the DD motors are concerned they are about equal. Still the Pioneer performs on a considerably higher level than the Denon, especially in the lower registers. I’m pretty certain this must be attributed to the tonearm, which is probably the Pioneer’s biggest asset compared to similarly priced DD tables. Unfortunately it cannot be separated from the turntable itself because of the remote armlift arrangement (my only complaint), otherwise I probably would have installed this arm on my higher level turntables. I don’t think Pioneer ever released this tonearm as a separate item, at least I’ve never seen it.

Goldmund Studio but only battery operated. Still a great piece of audio gear

If I remember correctly, the first Denon direct drive turntable from the late ’70’s was a stunner in looks and briefly was on the Absolute Sound’s top turntable list.  The later Denon's were almost all semi-automatic .... the armless ones are rare.

Enjoyed Denon DP2500 which, last I knew, is still spinning 40 years later...at incorrect speed...has a strobe on-board with no adjustment.  A better strobe from "The Tweak Shop" back in the day, revealed it ran fast.  A "post Allen Perkins (Spiral Groove) Star Sapphire SOTA w/Fidelity Research FX64 arm solved all that, including the "Electronic Flywheel" line conditioner and vacuum...and Marigo Tuning Dots to stabilize it all.  Cheers, Pin

Sansui 929 was the most beautiful TT I ever saw .

@edgewear

Actually I do and can recommend it highly. It was part of a Japan only series of three models. The PL-30L II and PL-50L II were the smaller ones with 9" tonearms, the PL-70 II was bigger with a 12" version. One might say that these tables were ’trickled down’ from the big P3 and P10 Exclusive tables. The styling and in particular the tonearms are very similar.

I agree, the PL-70II or P-10, i wish i could find one. They are so nice compared to modern Pioneer’s crapy turntables, the best ever MM cartridge designed for this Pioneer tonearm is PC-1000 mkII (Beryllium cantilever). Here is PC-1000 mkII MM on Pioneer P-3 turntable with removed wooden plinth, look what’s inside. Lewm’s favorite P-3 with coreless motor is amazing, read more about it.

PL-70-II is much cheaper alternative, but i would give them my prize for design.

P.S. All info about the cartridge: https://audio-heritage.jp/PIONEER-EXCLUSIVE/etc/pc-1000ii.html 

Great vintage TT's being mentioned here. So far, I like the Yamaha Gt-2000 and the Pioneer PL-70II

The only problem is LewM doesn’t own a p3. He used to lust after one, but he is now very happy with what he has. However, if some day Lew’s audiophile angel were to descend from heaven and present Lew with a p3, Lew would be ecstatic. Unfortunately, Lew does not believe in angels.

Just reconditioned a late 1970s Pioneer table with dual motors to separate the many auto functions from the drive to the platter.  Massive and heavy.  Put a brand new ShureV15 type III cartridge on and ran it thru 120 Watts of Harmon Karden into new Bose 901s.  It definitely caught the 70s sound and was full and mellow.  The direct drive snyced up very well for perfect timing and speed.  Auto lift function can be set for size of disc you are playing from the full 10" to 45s and was smooth and quiet as it worked.  
Very nice if that is what you want.  After serviceing and listening I bought a Rega P-6 with Orotophon 2M Bronze cart and gave the tt to a friend.  40 years of technology just blow that old stuff away.

I agree, the PL-70II or P-10, i wish i could find one. They are so nice compared to modern Pioneer’s crapy turntables, the best ever MM cartridge designed for this Pioneer tonearm is PC-1000 mkII (Beryllium cantilever). Here is PC-1000 mkII MM on Pioneer P-3 turntable with removed wooden plinth, look what’s inside. Lewm’s favorite P-3 with coreless motor is amazing, read more about it.

PL-70-II is much cheaper alternative, but i would give them my prize for design.

P.S. All info about the cartridge: https://audio-heritage.jp/PIONEER-EXCLUSIVE/etc/pc-1000ii.html

I have owned the Exclusive P3 for almost 10 years of perfect fault free performance. One of the best tables ever made. The Technic s EPC100 EPC mk4 is an amazing cart as well, although the suspension is fragile.

I'm not sure I'd call it the "best", but when I was looking for a turntable with auto shut off, I found a Realistic Lab 440.  It's a very nice table and fully automatic.  It was a little fussy when I first got it, but the shop I bought it from went back through it and it has performed flawlessly since.  I have better turntables, but this one is good enough that it spent some time in my main system and was very enjoyable.

During that time, I bought the only DD turntable I ever owned, a Goldmund Studio.  I still use it fairly frequently and it has never broken, although I do treat it and the later T3F arm like fragile old ladies in order to increase their life.

@knollbrent & chakster,

I'm sure you guys know this, but HiFido in Japan is a great source for these and related vintage DD tables and other gear. Their prices are considerably below eBay level and therefore you need to move quickly. And they have waiting lists for sought after items.
For instance, the Exclusive P3 - which comes around at a regular basis - is always sold immediately on the same day it is listed.

BTW judging from their listings the Yamaha GT series (the 750, 1000 and even the 2000) seem to be less rare than those Pioneer PL-xxL II series.

My dedicated mono deck is a Technics SP15 , AT1503 MKiii arm, and Ortofon CG25 DI MK2 cartridge.    I have tried several stereo MM cartridges in the combo- V15III HE / Empire 4000Z and 4000T / Empire EDR .9    The EDR was the best followed by the V15III.   For mono its the bees knees- strong and stable with considerable "drive" and verve.  Solo piano (and other solo instruments) sound real in a corporeal sense.   In stereo it also sounds great, but different than my LP12 ITOKK LVII Denon 103D (SS ruby rebuild).   The SP15 has better bass and solidity to the presentation, but overall is just not as engaging to me.   That said, the SP15 is a damn fine deck ! 

I owned a Micro Seiki DDX-1000, awesome table with room for 3 arms, they also made a DQX-1000 that was a quartz oscillator locked model. I used 2 arms, a Micro Seiki MA-505 and an Infinity carbon fiber Black Widow, both worked very well. I don't know off the top of my head any other tables with 3 arm capability in this price range, though I'm sure there must be some others out there. Good luck in your endeavors and enjoy. 

I’d like to hear suggestions and comments on some fantastic, cool as crap, vintage turntables that you think should sit next to the Luxman.

It all depends on your spending budget; going from some hundred dollars of a Technics Sp 15 to a some tens of thousands of dollars of a Denon DP 100 or an Onkyo PX100M there are an infinite number of goods turntables.

First reveal the budget then you can indicate something between the great and excellent.

@best-groove let's say budget is two fold. Under 10 best under 5

@knollbrent   under 5K$?

@knollbrent,

If you have max. $5k to spend - not including a cartridge - you might be able to put your mind on the Exclusive P3. HifiDo generally offers it for a little under $5k. But you have to add shipping cost, which will not be cheap. And you will need to move fast.

The Exclusive P10 is reportedly very close sonically to the P3 and should give you more leeway financially. But for some reason it is much rarer on the used market than the P3. The P10 has been on my radar for several years as a possible upgrade to the PL-70L II, but it almost never comes on offer.

Oeps, I just realize I’m creating my own competition here for acquiring a P10, but I reckon this honest recommendation will be good for karma....... ;-).

edgeware made a good point, and so did Chakster:  The PL70 has an edge on its competition at its price point, by virtue of its included tonearm, which seems to be the same as the one on the P3.  I've seen that tonearm for sale separately at prices in excess of $4,000.

My research also indicates that the lesser Yamaha's, below the GT2000, are not to be taken as seriously as the GT2000.  (We are talking about ultimate products here.  Surely the GT1000 and 750 will "work" and play LPs ok.) Moreover, keep in mind that the GT2000X is really the one to die for.