Best vintage DD turntables from the 70's and 80's?

@knollbrent

’Anyone have the Pioneer PL-70L II?’

Actually I do and can recommend it highly. It was part of a Japan only series of three models. The PL-30L II and PL-50L II were the smaller ones with 9" tonearms, the PL-70 II was bigger with a 12" version. One might say that these tables were ’trickled down’ from the big P3 and P10 Exclusive tables. The styling and in particular the tonearms are very similar.

The PL-70L II replaced a Denon DP-75 (with Denon DK-330 plinth and Denon DA-309 tonearm). I guess as far as the DD motors are concerned they are about equal. Still the Pioneer performs on a considerably higher level than the Denon, especially in the lower registers. I’m pretty certain this must be attributed to the tonearm, which is probably the Pioneer’s biggest asset compared to similarly priced DD tables. Unfortunately it cannot be separated from the turntable itself because of the remote armlift arrangement (my only complaint), otherwise I probably would have installed this arm on my higher level turntables. I don’t think Pioneer ever released this tonearm as a separate item, at least I’ve never seen it.

@knollbrent & chakster,

I'm sure you guys know this, but HiFido in Japan is a great source for these and related vintage DD tables and other gear. Their prices are considerably below eBay level and therefore you need to move quickly. And they have waiting lists for sought after items.
For instance, the Exclusive P3 - which comes around at a regular basis - is always sold immediately on the same day it is listed.

BTW judging from their listings the Yamaha GT series (the 750, 1000 and even the 2000) seem to be less rare than those Pioneer PL-xxL II series.

@knollbrent,

If you have max. $5k to spend - not including a cartridge - you might be able to put your mind on the Exclusive P3. HifiDo generally offers it for a little under $5k. But you have to add shipping cost, which will not be cheap. And you will need to move fast.

The Exclusive P10 is reportedly very close sonically to the P3 and should give you more leeway financially. But for some reason it is much rarer on the used market than the P3. The P10 has been on my radar for several years as a possible upgrade to the PL-70L II, but it almost never comes on offer.

Oeps, I just realize I’m creating my own competition here for acquiring a P10, but I reckon this honest recommendation will be good for karma....... ;-).

@lewm,

The tonearm of the PL-70L II is very similar to the one on the P3 and P10, but not identical. The most obvious difference is that the P3/P10 arm is dynamically balanced, whereas the PL-70L II arm is statically balanced. The P3/P10 armlift also has its own lever on the armbase (instead of a push button on the plateau rim, like on the 70L).
It may have been available as a separate product, but I don't remember ever seeing it for sale. So it must have been quite rare, which would then go a long way to explain a $4k asking price. 

According to the vintageknob the signal-to-noise ratio went from 78dB on the P3 to 95dB on the P3A, so I suppose it is correct to assume it is (much) better. The P10 was also high up on the list of that Japanese turntable shoot-out in Stereo Sound magazine in 1980, but the P3 was the clear winner.

@downunder

yes, I overlooked this footnote. Sorry for the confusion. Come to think of it, this difference in specs does seem unrealistic......

@chakster While I agree with you, I've always wondered why Micro Seiki built direct drives on this exalted level as OEM for other companies - like this Onkyo, the Kyocera, some Luxman models and allegedly also the Yamaha 'gigantic and tremendous' tables  - but never under their own name. The market for DD's - even the more ambitious and  expensive ones - was much bigger than for belt drives in those days. 

BTW Audioscope is notorious for their absurd prices, so €20k should not be regarded as any sort of realistic market value. But then again it never appears on the open market, so they can charge whatever they feel like. I'd love to hear this table, but not at any price!

Lewm, I don't have any first hand evidence, but this is claimed on numerous forum discussions and websites, including vintageknob. I shouldn't have stated it as fact the way I did, but there is at least some circumstantial evidence. According to vintageknob the Nakamichi TX-1000 was also built by Micro to Nakamichi's specifications. As for 'some' Luxmans, the PD-300, 310 and 350 belt drives were almost certainly built by Micro (hard to miss considering the many design similarities), but it might be the case with the PD-444 direct drive as well. 

Also according to the vintageknob there were only a handful of manufacturers of DD motors at the time, which were used by all Japanese brands. Micro was basically a precision mechanical engineering company, so it is very unlikely they built DD motors or speed control electronics themselves.

I remember reading a TAS article some years ago describing the Japanese audio ecosystem, which over many decades evolved into a network of companies and designers closely working together. So plenty of overlap indeed as Totem395 suggests. It would be interesting to read a history some day on how this ecosystem operated and who were the designer teams responsible for the top DD tables we hold so dear.