My Ayon Spirit III Gen 4(nearly 5 years old) is being serviced right now for buzzing in the left channel which the technician expects to be failed resistors. An Orion III I owned which I sold to a neighbor failed to power up. My Triton had issues with a lost channel appearing and disappearing depending on how long it was on. I use my amps most every day and these issues arise after more than 3 or 4 years and I expect the Class A heat is a contributor. As far as I know there are only 2 service centers for Ayon in U.S. and both are always backed up for months as they are not just Ayon service centers.
Best used integrated under $5k
Hey guys
Preparing for a move out from our NYC apartment to a house in the suburbs.
As part of that planning to create dedicated 2 channel space. At the moment using my salk sound speakers with marantz receiver.
Plan is to get a new TT. Also last year I had done countless hours of auditions and based on that had settled on Wilson Sabrina. Planning to buy them used to save some dough.
Also planning to buy used integrated. Want to spend < $5000. Short list is
- Hegel 360
- Luxman 509
- ML 585
- Audio Research VSI75
- Naim Supernait 2
- Krell Vanguard
Bunch of these brands are not that easy to find in the used market and you have to wait.
Would appreciate any inputs on the above and anything else I should be looking at.
Preparing for a move out from our NYC apartment to a house in the suburbs.
As part of that planning to create dedicated 2 channel space. At the moment using my salk sound speakers with marantz receiver.
Plan is to get a new TT. Also last year I had done countless hours of auditions and based on that had settled on Wilson Sabrina. Planning to buy them used to save some dough.
Also planning to buy used integrated. Want to spend < $5000. Short list is
- Hegel 360
- Luxman 509
- ML 585
- Audio Research VSI75
- Naim Supernait 2
- Krell Vanguard
Bunch of these brands are not that easy to find in the used market and you have to wait.
Would appreciate any inputs on the above and anything else I should be looking at.
66 responses Add your response
My fav in that price range is Jeff Rowland Continuum S2 and Jadis I-50, very different philosophies but both incredibly engaging and excel in all areas. In my search I have also heard Luxman 509x, Luxman 590 AXII, Ayre AX-5 Twenty, Gryphon Diablo 300, Line Magnetic 508ia, Prima Luna (forgot the model), Naim Supernait 2, Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum III, each of them had their strengths but none of them had the total package. |
My 2 cents after reading some of the posts even though this is my first post. I have been looking for a SS integrated for my office that has USB digital DAC and runs cool. I own an Ayon Spirit III KT150 Class A integrated amp which is my baseline for comparison and which to me is near perfect. I purchased the mentioned Anthem STR integrated for the 30 day trial with the 20% off deal and was disappointed. It is detailed but lacks warmth and immediacy, ending up being too bright and slightly thin...it just does not grab your attention like an expensive amp should. The Ayon Spirit III trumped it in every way including bass and especially imaging so I returned it for a refund. Anthem is a great company to deal with as I own a couple Statement amps for my theater...but the STR is not built to the same build quality level as Statement. Compared to Ayon, Hegel had a compressed analytical sound stage but is more appealing than the Anthem STR. I decided Class A or close to it so that led me to the Cambridge Audio Edge A with their XA design (biased to be similar to Class A) and I purchased with a 60 day trial. Wow, for the price this is by far the best sound I have heard from a SS amp and the design is very impressive and very well thought out...not just a box around a circuit board. The shipment packaging is an engineering marvel in itself. I originally did not consider CA, but I am glad I did give the Edge A a try as it has the tube like warmth, quickness, linearity, detail, huge sound stage, and not a hint of harshness. The Edge A can hang a note with decay like a good tube amp and it is whisper quiet while sounding big, but not exaggerated and still full and accurate at low volume. It just sounds right as music should sound, a straight wire with gain. It is a keeper but it does run very warm or should I say hot but has adequate heat sinks in the dual mono design. In my search, I have not liked anything from PrimaLuna (compared to Ayon) and the Simaudio 340iX and several AVM were at the top of the list until I tried the Edge A. To me it is splitting hairs between Ayon Spirit III and Edge A but Ayon gets the nod. One caveat with Ayon, I have owned a few and also have a Triton in my theater for stereo and I have experienced a few warranty issues and it is not a smooth ride for service. The CA Edge A has a 5 year warranty but hopefully I will not need it. |
I'm in this same space myself and have been considering options for at least a year. It came down pretty fast to two, and now one. I'll be getting a Raven Osprey later on this year. It seems their entry level Nighthawk at $3k would be better at meeting your requirements than anything anyone else has mentioned. Except, as already noted, you have the Wilson problem. You could pair the Nighthawk with Tekton Double Impacts and Herron VTPH 2A phono stage, put some of the huge savings into seriously good wire, DBA, be well ahead of anything you could afford to connect to those Wilsons and still have money in the bank. Awfully overrated, and over priced (the Rolex of speakers), but if you like em.... |
I can't comment on any of the above, but have been in the market for an integrated in the same general price range. I may go NEW though. When I asked a Lux dealer about their integrated's for my Harbeths, he suggested the following...Class A integrated if you have a more revealing Wilson type speaker, but the 550 may not have the juice with less efficient speakers. So, there you have it...you may want to look at the 590. In my case, I am considering a class A/B unit...likely a new 507. |
No one has mentioned my VAC 160i. I have tried lots on the list. My VAC has the fully balanced option (+$1,500) and the MC/MM phono option (+$1,500). It was $12,500 out the door but I think mine’s worth about $5,500-$6,000 but without the options can be had about $5,000. I think it’s better than any tube integrated and with 87 watts, it can handle anything from super sensitive speakers (it’s very quiet) to some lower efficiency speakers as long as the impedance isn’t too low. I came from PrimaLuna and solid state before that. I haven’t seen a Luxman 509x much below $6,000 but those would be my top picks. I’ve been back n forth about buying a used Luxman, but come back to my VAC each time. |
How much power do the Wilsons require? Looking at minimum impedance at 2.5 ohms, they may be a tough load. I owned Ayre gear, I can highly recommend the AX5-20, Ayre has a certain clarity and sweetness that I assume carries into this integrated. I own the Luxman. It's one of the best amps I have heard at any price. I'd highly recommend it if you can find it around that price. The Vitus RI-100 used should be around your budget, and has the power. The Gryphon 120 is another one to look at, but I highly doubt it'd be around the used budget. |
@ryder This was with 3 different speakers. - all Hegel components with the KEF Blade - all Mark Levinson components with Magico A3 - all Luxman components with TAD ME1 and 2 sets of Harbeth somethings Now each of these systems had either the integrated or preamp + DAC + amp. The only way to have a better comparison than what I had was to have the same speakers with all these systems. In my world that is not possible and I did manage to get a great feel for the quality of each group of systems. The particular value of my observation was within the sub-group of each system when I was able to see were each companies integrated amp fit relative to the top end separates. In this case the variability in the speakers did not matter so much to me. |
- Hegel 360 - Luxman 509 - ML 585 I have heard these 3 that were asked about. My money would go towards the ML 585. However, that thing is big. It did sound closer to the $20K ML separates that I also heard witht he same speakers. The Luxman 509x did not sound close to the Luxman 900 series separates (with same speakers), though many people on A’gon think they do. The Hegel 360 was not as good as the top end Hegel separates on the same speakers. The ML 585 is close to the top end ML gear and my fav. Second is the Luxman, and the Hegel. BTW - I recently heard that Harmon is now longer going to make the Revel Salon’s. Makes me wonder what the future is for ML. |
marrduk24 i am curious to hear what the dealer you mentioned, who carries luxman hegel and sim says about their respective integrated amp offerings and to the one poster above -- i am sorry but no the hegels do not sound thin at all, if anything they have a bit more body in the midrange than most good ss amps ... ...what the hegels do have is a very very high damping factor, so they can lean out the bass of some underdamped coned speakers that can sound bloated when driven by lesser amps - that can lead one to think the hegel sounds lean/thin driving 'x' speaker... naims are highly rhythmic but they are actually brighter and a bit more harsh than hegels |
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Thanks guys. Really appreciate all the inputs. I have found a dealer that has Luxman, Hegel, PrimaLuna & Simaudio. So feels like a good place to compare these. Also planning to visit 2nd place to compare Naim, Hegel, Pass, Audio Research. While at the 2nd place will also look at Anthem and Langford (other suggestions here). Hopefully between these two auditions I will select something. |
This at the very low end of your price range but I thought I would mention it in case you might want to direct some of your budget to other upgrades. Denon made a series of integrated amps with the designation PMA-2000. I have the 2000IVR. They have 80 watts per channel into 8 ohms and double their power into 4 ohms. Mine weighs about 60 lbs and is extremely well built. I run this integrated in my desktop system but I've compared it to my Krell separates in my main system and it holds up surprisingly well in sound quality. Many people would turn up their nose at a Denon integrated but they would be missing an amp that is better built than a lot of high end brands. These come up now and then and go for between $500 and $1000. |
djones51 and dtximages - thank you for pointing me to Anthem. It wasn’t on my radar. While I am was originally looking at brands that have more of an audio heritage, makes sense to look at Anthem too. Djones51 - in my post yesterday I did thank everyone collectively for their inputs, that included you as well. |
I bought a used McIntosh MAC6700 well under that and it has everything I need. You might even be able to get the HD Radio TM-3 Tuner for it and still be under $5000 too. I am still amazed by how clear HD radio can sound through my system, and I never even listened to the radio at home until I had it. Also, I heard the latest Anthem STR at Axpona in 2019 running into a pair of Paradign Persona 3 speakers. They had it set up in a hotel room (as is most of the show), and I thought they had the absolute best sounding hotel room in the whole place. I don't think you could go wrong and I think you could get that new under your budget number, and probably even less if you could find one used. Good luck! |
djones51 ha. Most of those other options are bare bones. Not sure if any offer base management, especially for two subwoofers and none that I can tell have home theater bypass. HT bypass was something I didn't think I'd use but I do now and LOVE that feature. It allows me to use my front two channels in HT and 2-channel. A benefit not afforded with any of the others. The Hegel will drop hard in price soon and makes me think $5700 is overpriced. Demos are already selling for $3500. Over the $5k mark, I'm not sure why you'd want an integrated when you can get separates like the small form factor of PS Audio's Stellar Gain Cell DAC with M300, M700, or M1200 amps which should outperform all of these in most regards. |
You're crazy not to consider the Anthem STR integrated. Tons of features and flexibility including dual sub outs with bass management and Anthem Room Correction. Even if you don't want to use room correction, the fact they offer it is awesome, makes it much better resell, you might want it one day...etc.. I feel like Hegel gets alot of hype because of those Youtube guys who push Hegel everything. |
Thanks all for your inputs. Thanks for your inputs. I am based of these inputs trying to narrow it down to New fits within my budget 1. Hegel H390 2. Supernait 3 3. Simaudio 340i x Used: 4. ARC VSi75 5. Luxman 509 Of this list, I should be able to try out Naim, ARC and Moon with Wilsons because my local Wilson dealers carry them. However there is no local dealer that has Luxman and Hegel. |
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Why not just get a new Anthem STR integrated for 4.5K
Anthem® | STR Integrated Amplifier | Overview
It also has a built in phono pre amp.200wpc @8ohms, 400wpc @4ohms, and 550wpc @2ohms |
To add to what @jjss49 was trying to get at, I believe, is the quality of the DAC. The 360 has a dac/streamer, yes. However, the newer 390 has a much better dac/streamer. Also a better preamp/amp section. I've owned 4 different Hegels, and the newer models have performed quite a bit better all around than the discontinued models (360). All that being said, my vote goes for the Luxman and separate dac (with streamer) to meet your sound preference. The phono stage in Luxmans are no slouch either. You can get a streamer/dac used for reasonable prices, i.e. - Auralic Altair, Teac NT-505, Simaudio 280D. Good luck in your search! |
@marrduk24 responding to your reply earlier - i did not mean to say that the hegel h360 does not have a DAC (it certainly does) what I meant to say is that the current gen hegels have specifically improved the DAC sections of the units over the prior gen ... thus, if you do not have a need to use the DAC in the H360, it is a good value used as an amplifier conversely, if you wanted to use the onboard DAC, then best to get the latest gen H390 or H590 as these will provide the cleanest D to A conversion that Hegel offers ...either way, you are correct, you will need a separate phono stage if using a Hegel... they only have line level RCA inputs sorry for my sloppy writing :) and BTW - no affiliation here with Hegel... just a very happy and very impressed customer... |
Hegel H390 is an excellent match with Wilson speakers. Here you can find a video comparing Hegel h390 and Mcintosh Ma352, both driving Wilson Yvettes. https://youtu.be/CzK4U8pPqOY The guys talking in this video are very experienced and they explain to you the type of sound you get from the Hegel H390 and the Mcintosh MA352. Seems to me that the Hegel could be what you are looking for. I really think this will give an idea about the Hegel sound, but is very important that you try to audition one to be sure. 5k is a lot of money and let me tell you by personal experience that is very easy to mess up things buying blindly. |
