Best turntable under $4000

@lewm if you have the money to burn, have at it.  

as for Sansui being a joke, that's news to me... at least as vintage products, they are generally well-respected.  It certainly doesn't perform as a joke; as far as turntables are concerned it's still rock solid.  Now, if you'd say having spent $4000 on a vintage turntable of ANY sort is joke, well then there we can agree.

... and vintage stuff is fun and nice to handle and look at... but I've moved away from vintage, overall; I don't need the clutter any more... just have a couple last older items remaining.  

Indeed, turntables overall are a nostalgia trip, honestly.  Maybe that's why the "fogies" you describe like them!  I used to like 'em too, and still do I guess, sort of... and yes they do sound different (different) than most digital sources... noisier... and they are fun to use, I suppose...   

Hey, if $4000+ turntables turn you on, all is well, in the end; you are expressing your values.  However, nothing - and I mean nothing - that I've ever seen nor heard has convinced me that $4000+ for a turntable is necessary by any stretch to achieve fine audio.. other than a stretch of magical thinking.  At that pricepoint, sure they're pretty and cool and fun to show off "wow" and nice to handle, and sure they sound nice but not necessary.  At that point they are more like elaborate shiny toys, high performance yes for sure, and toys are fun, I get it.  But one can get high-performance tt toys for far less money.

I stand by my assertions.

Curt, what’s funny to me is that you think $4000 is an extravagant, irresponsible amount of money to spend on a TT and tonearm. Whereas I rank it as a sweet spot where you can get a lot of bang for the buck, and I rank your hypothetical $100 Sansui as either your joke on us or an indication of self delusion. Yes, we agree that there is such a thing as ridiculously expensive, but I’d put that threshold much higher. Your original post elicited so much ire I think mostly because most of us are old fogies who have earned our money and are comfortable enough financially that there is absolutely nothing sacrificed by spending $4000 on a turntable. I have investments in tax-free bonds and mutual funds, and I don’t even live off their earnings. I simply roll them over. I am fortunate in that I can do that and still buy a $4000 turntable, if I wanted to. But as I already own five turntables that are always up and running into two different systems, I am not in the market for another turntable. If you look at the system pages of many of the guys who comment here, you will find that many of us own very elaborate systems that are very well thought out and not extravagant by modern  criteria. In other words, you are preaching to the converted, but more than that you are preaching to those who do not want to be preached to. If all that matters to you is accumulating static wealth, then also, you came to the wrong place.

I recently installed a DS audio E1 on my 17 year old VPI Scout with a dramatic improvement in sound quality. As I used my phono preamp as trade-in it was a pretty economic upgrade. If you like your TT, that might be a way to gradually improve your analog.

Well there are some fine suggestions here, I doubt the Basis turntable /arm combo available on US Audiomart would be bested by any of them. Most of the ones suggested are not in the same league. Basis tables are a great combo of simple but very well thought out design combined w/ a very level of build quality & reliability. The Vector 4 arm on that table now sells for over$6000 & just about worth the asking price itself assuming good condition. It’s easy to set up w/ excellent detailed videos by the late founder & designer, AJ Conti & full support & parts ( other than a new belt , unlikely anything required) fully available as the company is fully operational. 
 

knollbrent

Glad to hear that Chakster is doing well, I miss him here as well. He passed on his knowledge and experience gave me good advice. Say hi for me.

It's been awhile since I've been on the Gon. Glad to see we still have knuckleheads posting that have no interest in HiFi or listening to good music but would rather grab a turntable off a garbage pile and spin a scratched Springsteen record. Wish Chaskster was still on to argue with everyone. I speak to him weekly btw, he's doing well if anyones interested. 

Regarding the OP's quest. I'm a direct drive lover. My 1200 GR get's fired up daily with vintage MM carts.  Luxman and Victor are ready to roll too. 

@yogiboy

@lewm

I am not a "big time" investor, and I am not a money manager looking for new clients. I am a systematic and patient investor, using the power of compounding and time over decades to ultimately produce a reliable income that means security. But that process can be seriously damaged by unwise spending. And, in fact, I would advise against most money managers, because automatic investing in index funds is not only the best way to do it, but also quite simple IF one just takes the time to read a book or two...

And I do feel sad when I see people damaging their financial futures by throwing money at things that ultimately don’t matter to performance: especially young people who damage their futures by buying fancy blingy toys, like fancy new cars or unnecessarily expensive audio equipment to impress their so-called friends... but, hey, if one has money to burn and bling is a priority for whatever reason, then have at it, but I am not impressed. Bling is pretty to look at and toys are fun to handle, but aren’t people here more interested in music reproduction? (well, maybe not... some people here are more technophiles and blingophiles than musicphiles.)

What I AM is an audio enthusiast with a passion for music - ... for music ... - reproduced in a high-quality rich natural enjoyable way with livable components, but here’s my twist, as an antidote for the spend-crazy faction on this site: frugality. Frugality is being wise with money. My speciality in the audio world is excellent music production that can be, with care and knowledge, had for surprisingly little money through the careful selection of high-value products.

Many people on this site are enamored with bling or with impressing each other with how much money they spend on things that are ultimately trivial for the excellent reproduction of music. I am providing a contrarian view, a view carefully come to over four decades in the hobby, to that tendency. The throw-money-at-it tendency is a real disservice to anybody who, for example, might be new to the hobby or who might not actually realize, because maybe they never tried it, having been convinced by deluded audiofools who equate spending money with achieving excellent sound, that high-level audio can be had for surprisingly little money.

Some people on this site don’t want to hear any of that though...

I think Curt is a “money manager”, aka investment advisor, pimping for new clients.

Like Wood: At $4,500, I would research this DD model

@curtdr

I just can’t wrap my head around this. You come on this site where people have a passion for audio and music and exchange valuable information with each other. Since you claim to be a big time investor a site like this would be more to your  likin' ! Kapish?

all that said, 

congratulations on your Kenwood.  I'm sure it's a very nice piece.  

@lewm

your statements about the S&P 500 show how unsophisticated you are when it comes to money... 

so it wouldn't surprise me if you think stereo gear represents a sound long-term investment strategy... 

But like I said, if people have money to burn and want to spend it on expensive stereo gear - or any other bling that turns 'em on - well, OK.  And, if one wants to spend $4000 on a turntable, or a piece of wire for that matter, and they really do enjoy it that much more than a less expensive tt or wire, well I guess that's OK too (as long as they don't hypocritically btch about the evils of marketing or selfish capitalism itself, lol) if that's where their values reside... my own value system, and thus my own money, resides elsewhere...  but at this point I'm repeating myself.

But, just don't expect me to agree that one needs to spend $4000 on a turntable to get excellent sound.  And the last thing you want to do is try to convince me that stereo gear is some sort of "investment" in the financial sense.  

"So like I've repeated here and in many other places, enjoy what one enjoys.  If one is aware of the issues and the alternatives, is educated and informed, then at that point, assuming that the person is rational and well-intentioned, A person can play his chips however he feels fit...."

That description fits everyone who's offered an opinion to the OP, except you, Curt.  Based on your first sentence, it appears you roam around the Forums spreading the Debbie Downer Wall Street philosophy. By the way, the S&P 500 was down 20% over the year 2022.  Your $4000 invested in December, 2021, is now worth $3200.  Whereas my vintage Kenwood L07D turntable is up by about the same amount in its market value over the same time period.

@jerryg123 all is well, jerry.

"Diminishing returns" does depend on one's measure, and some can be measured, and some are purely subjective... 

And if spending more and more money equates to equally more subjective enjoyment, well that's fine, and subjective... 

But to think that spending more definitely gets better discernibly better performance in audioland is delusional.  I don't think that's any "new news."  

So like I've repeated here and in many other places, enjoy what one enjoys.  If one is aware of the issues and the alternatives, is educated and informed, then at that point, assuming that the person is rational and well-intentioned, A person can play his chips however he feels fit.

@cpdkee and everyone else, for that matter: Spend your money on whatever you want. It’s your money. Only you can decide if you’re being frivolous or not. You decide your own values, and by definition how you use your money reflects your values.

My condescension is reserved for people who believe that spending more equals greater enjoyment. That’s not how life works.

I condescend to the people who condescend to the frugal sorts who understand that more money does not essentially equate to more enjoyment and NOT even to greater performance in audioland... nor in cars, for that matter.  

If you want a suggestion, then here’s one: Technics. You can get a new, well-reviewed Technics for around $1000 or so if you shop around. You can get a used one for much less.

But, if spending $4000 on a turntable makes you feel better, well, have at it! All is well.

@curtdr sorry could not help it. Timing is everything.

Curtdr. Maybe you should read your post again that dripped with condescension. You could have said that you don't think I need to spend 4k. You could have given me examples of xy and z that will cost far less and sound just as good. I would have been all ears. You instead chose to imply that I am frivolous with money and need to think more about investing. Now we all know you are a millionaire.....and a condescending putz. Well played troll.

@curtdr clearly the OP has more disposable income than you. 

His money his choice.

Putz. 

@curtdr

Why would a hotshot big investor like you come on an audio site and give your opinion on anything? Enjoy that old sh---t box that you been driving for the past 7 years. Go get ’em big spender!!

Have fun listening to the S&P 500. The premise here is you don’t need the income you could otherwise earn from $4000, and/or that there is more to life than making money. 

Thank you, Curtdr for your thoughtful and incredibly helpful point of view. Next you can tell me how you walked to school uphill in the snow both ways when you were little. 4k is a drop in the bucket compared to most vinyl rigs on then site. Have fun being a curmudgeon.

$4000 for a turntable?  lol

That's more than I spent for the used Lexus that I've been driving for the past seven years or so... 

I have an old Sansui turntable that still performs just fine... I think I spent $100, maybe, plus a decent cartridge.  It's mainly nostalgic clutter, now, though... and I'm considering getting rid of it. 

To each his own, I guess.  ... values and priorities... some like bling, some prefer practicality or investments that actually go up in value - I'll take that 4k and drop it into an S&P 500 Index fund, thank you very much.  

I’ve been using the following for 35+ years:

- VPI HW 19 MK IV with SAM

- Sumiko MMT

- Koetsu - started with (“the old”) Black, currently the Onyx (“the old” onyx, made by The Madter)

If it's $4K all in for a complete turntable/tonearm/cartridge you should consider:

Poly Table Signature from George Merrill...PolyTable Signature (hifigem.com).  George is Mr. Analog in my opinion and many others. 

Check out his web page the gear he carries and his "white papers: GEM Dandy Products (hifigem.com).

Best of luck

Has the OP indicated that he is interested in a used turntable, not to mention a vintage used turntable? Those often come with their own unique sets of problems that the new owner then has to solve. Just to note one thing: the SP 15 is not in the same league with the SP 10 mark 2, no matter how beautiful the plinth may or may not be.

Didn't know about this one. Over OP's budget, but I thought others might want to see it

This listing/price is from Romania, probably not real.

APPEARANCE!!!

I just want to add:

I want equipment that looks good to me, any time I approach it, turn it on, or walk nearby, playing or just sitting,

or has unique features/capabilities I appreciate every time I use it.

Cameras, TT, Preamp; Amp, Speakers. Cars

Of course it has to preform to my expectations, and sound terrific, within or usually above budget some when I find something I didn’t know existed.

OP was choosing as exaamples wood with round corners, maybe not his final choice, but as the examples he gave us with his comment appearance is important.

That’s why I wouldn’t buy the great performing Technics, and perhaps why I would buy the Technics I mentioned (not DJ appearance, 3 speeds), with the wonderful BP500 base (unique features)

I'm with the THORENS TD 1601 Crowd. Get the Walnut look.

This one, listed yesterday

has the VERY DESIREABLE BP500 Base with easy VTA, and potential for a second arm wand, Shape with removable headshell

Over budget, but A whole lot ’less dj looking’

...............................

another

lewm

you are right, way below budget

except few are responding to his alternate desire for semi-automatic, and this one does have usb if desired.

.....................................................................................

this was the best semi-automatic mentioned IMO:

here’s the thorens 1601 gemoody mentioned, open box, $3,100. free shipping

leaves some money for cartridge!

dealer says "Free Lifetime Technical Assistance". Anybody have any experience with seller?

if, like cameras, open box gets maker’s full warranty, check with the seller if tempted.

.........................................

I also think about ’assumed’ others following the discussion when I find stuff I didn’t know about.

The man is willing to pay around $4000 for a quality TT. This probably indicates he would not be interested in a $1000 TT with a USB port.

If you end up going belt drive, here’s an option, new, semi-auto.

available black, same seller

The vintage and used stuff is great for the dedicated hobbyist, but can be problematic for someone who would prefer to have a trouble-free modern table and use readily available carts. In the under 4k price range I would seriously consider the Technics SL1200GR (which sounds almost identical to the G) with a Hana SL or a Rega P6 with the Ania (both around $2.5k with great entry level MC carts that will pair well with your Cronos Magnum phono section). Spend the money you save on records!

If you want to spend more, the Technics SL1200G or the Rega P8 would be good choices, but both would take you over your budget when you add decent carts.

You can get a really good condition Garrard 401 with an SME arm for that. It will sound better than anything else at twice that price. That said, most $4000 turntables are really good. I think a used Rega P8 with an Alpheta cartridge would be a good choice if you don't want to get into vintage. Plug and play and sounds great.

Have fun with your new turntable!  I’ve had a long journey to get to what works for me. My goal is both great sound and ease of setup and use. I just want to put records on and listen. I’ve owned and used the Linn LP12, Clearaudio Performance, Townshend Rock 7, SOTA Sapphire, Bryston 1.0—all with top-notch arms and various cartridges up to $3500. And phono preamps ranging from $1000 to $7000. After all this, I’ve settled on my favorite, the Technics 1200G. It sounds great, is easy to set up, and allows easy cartridge switching, and can support excellent MC cartridges. Most important, it makes it very easy to just put a record on, which then sounds better than it ever has. 
 

This is just me and my experience. Your needs or wants may be different. 

I could never afford Dr. Feikert's turntable, but I admire it for two reasons. First, I know what it takes to earn a PhD and it is very probable Dr. Feikert applied the same conscientious attention to detail in designing and perfecting his turntable he had to learn through the hard years of graduate school. Second, in naming it after Voltaire, he has named it after a man who is my hero. There is a story about Voltaire having published Candide, which had the police on the way to his house to arrest him, eating his lunch. His servant was near panic over his not hurrying to board a carriage to cross the Swiss border before the police could catch up with him. He assured the servant there would be time for dessert. The police barely missed him when he departed to cross the border. To make a quote I heard of but cannot find from another literary hero of mine, Dante Alighieri, Voltaire had learned to ". . . sail through life in a greasy ship and slip the grips of his enemies."

Before you spend $4k on a new deck, I’d play around with ~$500 carts and phono stages to hear what you like. Take some time (months) so get a feel for what you like, then that’ll inform what you’re after when moving up with a turntable. 
 

get a Schiit mani for $149

carts to try:

Grado platinum low output 

Hana 

Denon DL 103 

that red dynavector

something from Nagaoka 

I love my Well Tempered Labs Amadeus but would probably get a technics 1200 variant next.

Thank you everyone for the responses.  All the feed back helped me narrow my search. Looks like I am going blow my budget on just the table and arm then buy the cartridge seperately. Thank you all

I have an older Well Tempered Classic with the arm from the same manufacturer it has been a joy to own since I got it. I am sure you can find one on the used market for a reasonable price. My cartridge is over your entire budget so I can not be recommending the Koetsu Rosewood Signature but it does a fantastic job.

OP

did you decide and buy something?

+1 Rega P8. Fantastic arm designed for the table. Just be sure to put on a wall shelf or some kind of suspension system (or both like I did) because it weighs only 10 pounds!. With a really good cartridge will put you over $4K by a little and by even more if you need a phono stage. 

The wiring goes straight from the cartridge all the way through to the phono stage - no headshells or tonearm cable interfaces to add distortions. Remember, every connector adds noise and distortion.

I wouldn't buy a used turntable of any type unless it was from a local dealer who would be willing to support it.

Regas depreciate very little for a reason. High demand and great value. Not big on their cartridges though.

Plus I think they look cool, but I wouldn't use that as a top criteria.

I sold a 1200G to buy my current table, a Luxman PD 171

Replacing the mat on any 1200 with the tungsten polymer record mat from that Luxman is a game changer IMO.

Best way to spend $4K is to buy a used well cared for turntable that originally cost double that.  I have done that several times, once getting a VPI TNT/ SMEV for the price of the cartridge it came with!  Takes research and careful examination of condition, but worth it,

I’ve had a few > $4K turntables in my day. Some mentioned here and all of them good. I moved on just to experience something new. I sold a 1200G to buy my current table, a Luxman PD 171. The 1200G is certainly a nice table. Very stable speed, easily adjustable VTA, removable headshell, after market upgrades, etc. However, for me, I found the belt drive Luxman to have more bottom end and more vinyl warmth. Of course, this brings up the great debate of DD vs. belt. I also like removable headshells cause I like to experiment with sound presentation from different carts, including mono. For me, this is a must have. Vinyl is a journey and the foundation is really the table. Buy the best you can afford but keep an open mind about trying something else just to educate yourself on what you like in sound presentation. Once you figure out the table then you can do the same with carts, phono preamps, tonearms, headshells, phono interconnects, on and on 🤣. 

@audioguy85    I'm looking at the Music Hall 7.3    How do you like it....

I switched from a >$4K Acoustic Signature setup (w/ $1600 tonearm) to a Technics 1210GR and have no regrets. The former was a more elegant looking turntable for certain but the GR looks better in person than I expected. Definitely less DJ-esque in the black guise. The Technics tonearm seems every bit as good as the Acoustic Signature’s. It’s possibly better actually, since I added a KAB arm damper. The bearings of the Technics arm feel more fluid also, not that the AS arm was any slouch, it’s just something you don’t notice until you handle each side by side. 
 

Even though the AS table produced near perfect speed stability according to a KAB  speed strobe (the AS has an outboard motor controller that allows fine pitch adjustments), I could still hear a significant improvement in sustained notes with the Technics. Sustained piano notes with the 1210 are absolutely perfect, no flutter whatsoever. I can’t say the same for any belt drive table I’ve heard outside of an SME 30. 

 

One man's perspective that gives an option

I forgot to mention VPI as another brand that has its own devoted and assertive fan base.  They're all deserving in one way or another, else these happy customers would not exist.