All new Popori Acoustics XR1.23 Electrostatic Loudspeakers at Notable Audio in Falls Church, VA. Notable Audio will be at Axpona 2023 Show 😈😈😎 https://notableaudio.com/popori-european-electrostatic-speakers/ https://poporiacoustics.com/hu/prices/ |
No real answer to the OP Question.
However I can vouch for the Classic Audio Field Coils Speakers, Either the T3.4 or the T1.5 by far out of 28 years of moving about with different speaker this one has left me not wanting to change it out of my room. The speaker should be powered by the Tube Power supply instead of the Solid state power supply John Wolff provides.
|
Wrong-my Legacy Focus have been measured at 96.4 db efficiency only 1.6db down from stated 98 db. My friends VR 35 export is 90 db 8 ohms, minimum of 5 ohms at 25 Hz. These are accurate and make them easy to drive by most amplifiers. My 35 watt super Dynaco (voltage regulated, not ultralinear design) drives Focus and Signature IIIs with ease and power despite the reduced impedance to 2.8 and 3.6 ohms, respectively. 93-95 db efficiency not based on design parameters for balanced sound is nonsense. I've heard fantastic speakers at 87db (Harbeths) and 92 db 4 ohms (VR Ultra 9). I've heard probably 500 speakers in my life and never considered moderate efficiency or ease of drive (beyond moderate power) to determine sound quality. So many other parameters. Although I tend not to like hard to drive speakers (MBL for that and other reasons, big Wilsons, big B&Ws, Maggies for orchestral/rock music, etc) which require heavy power concerns. |
intend to purchase the Von Schweikert VR9SE Mk II which has many drivers, 4 way crossover per transition with 94db 6 ohm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You actually, really , believe VS's spercs, 94db, 6 ohms on the VR9?
Bet any money its not over 90 db sen s and less than 4 ohm load.
I dont trust any speaker specs, with the exception of a few Full range manufacturers.
Even soem FR labs are fudging the numbers.
But as for xover style speakers the numbers mean nothing.
My ideal db sens are 93-95, , which just so happen to be the specs on the 2 drivers in my system, 93 and 95.
I might go 91/92 in tweeters, and 96 in a FR driver, , but IDEALLY, 93-95 is best for a balanced sound.
90 db tweeters I find too recessed,
And a 97 db FR I find too forward in midrange.
All VS's can't break above 90db. Based on the drivers employed , which are all low sens drivers, So how is it even remotely possible to attain a above 90 db spec on drivers with all BELOW 90 db rating.
aka Seas, Scanspeaks, Accuton, SB Acoustics, All 4 manufacturers below 90 db on drivers |
Wow! So much wrong headed thinking here. Sure, a $130,000 speaker may be more of a negative impact on the environment than a $30,000 or $3,000 speaker would be. But seriously, the percentage of $130,000 produced is a fraction of $3,000 speakers, so, in the long, and short run, the less expensive speakers, due to their numbers being produced, have a bigger environmental impact. This reminds me of the time during the Bush presidency (not ragging on Bush specifically), when gas prices went up to $5.00 a gallon, and people who owned their gas guzzling SUV’s would say things like, "I don’t hear too many people complaining about those gas guzzling Ferraris or Maseratis". Well yeah, how many gas guzzling $40,000 SUV’s are around, as compared to gas guzzling $200,000 supercars? Then I read things like, "spend $30,000 and use the other $100,000 to buy thing "X". Sorry to inform those of you using this sort of "advice" and logic, but can you imagine anyone looking to buy a pair of $130,000 speakers, being unable to also buy "thing X", too. I don’t imagine too many people able t afford $130,000 speakers, needing to eat instant ramen for a year in order to afford them. As far as not getting what you pay for with $130,000 speakers, again, it is a bogus argument. The same can be said for any audio product using the same argument. Just watch any of those GR Research vids where he opens up well respected, much lower cost speakers, and see all the electrolytic caps, iron core inductors, and sand cast resistors that are used. At least with high end speakers, they are using good quality parts, I have heard quite a few speakers at this range, and all things being equal, they are all worth the price, because they all sound better than speakers at lower price ranges. If one justifies speakers at $130,000 not being worth the price, the same arguments can be used for speakers at any price.
Remember, the vast majority of music listeners use $20 ear buds, listening to MP3s, on their smart phones. And they think your moderate few grand you spent on a complete system is ridiculous money to spend. Every time I read a thread that makes fun of the extreme high end prices, and those willing to spend it, I can’t help but think there is a bit of ’sour grapes’ going on. |
Okay, I currently own Legacy Focus (98db 4 ohm/low at 2.8 ohm) and Signature IIIs (94db 4 ohm). They are easy to drive using EAR 890, custom 125 watt Class A/B and Dynaco (highly modified) ST70 tube amps and the 35 watt Yamaha CR620 receiver. I intend to purchase the Von Schweikert VR9SE Mk II which has many drivers, 4 way crossover per transition with 94db 6 ohm with built in sub assistance amp (and 2/3rds less than the new cost). The Ultra series and VR 55 require more power due to reduced efficiency and lower impedance. The VR 35 for export is relatively easy to drive. VR also has Endeavor E-5 MkII with is 91db and 8 ohms. The Ultra series are the finest speakers I've ever heard, but in very expensive systems ($1 million). The only time my wife said that's the sound I want was hearing VS at a show (as do many reviewers in the past four years). A good taste of that is had by my friend's system I mentioned at under $15,000 system used. |
tweeter, 2 midwoofers I got that + a bit of woofer thrown in , got that, UNDER $1k, 30 lbs at most the new xover types, 200 lbs - 600 lbs each cabinet, not the pair, EACH , a bit more bass, $100k-$300k. This aint rocket science, its more common sense. Goes back to the old saying Ya can't buy fidelity aint for sale folks. |
Thats all these big hefty speaker loaded cabinets are, a bunch of tweets, midwoofers, woofers,,, nothing more nothing less. My Dual FR will soon this week!!!!!!!! have dual tweeters,,, YT vid comming your way./My tech utterly despises and hates, deplores these YT vids,, as **complete garbage** we have decided to agree to disagree, You do realize that techs dont know everything. Science is both a good and has a down side. |
Besides, VS55 at $100k-$325K states 4 ohms. But lets guess the 4 drivers are all 8 phms a piece. 8 ohms x 4 drivers does not = 4 ohms, something less than 4, maybe 2-3 ohms = not tube friendly, at least not a SET or DHT PP. VS's are for big ss amps. Lets all stay on the same page. and heavy. My DL Duo's , tops 30 lbs. VS's 55's mids are not even going to come close to the DL Duo's. PLUSSSSS Be Tweet, My tech strongly advises I avoid the Beryllium dome tweeters. The VR55 misses on every single point of consideration. Yet read the reviews, **Stunning,, the best, UNREAL,, wowo factor off the charts,, MUST Have, ,,Beats my Wilson Reference,,,..,, competes with all speakers over the $100k tag......***
|
well come to find out, Von Schweikert, dumped the 4 witha FR driver and has gone 100% all ACCUTON Ceramic drivers,,,,hummm game changer, usinga 5 or 6 inch ceramic as dedicated midrange. That alone aint gonna fly with me. My tech says avoid all/every midrange drivers. I agree 2nd 4 ohms impedance. Gotta be 8 or no deal last but most critical importance. db sensitivity,,and the VS55's,,,,come in ,,LOW 88db sens. I just dumped my Seas Thors(miserable 87 dbsens) as the shootout with a cheap chinese FR(90 db sens, Diatone, garbage) was bloody, the Thor went down EVEN before he had a chance to EVEN reach for his gun. Bloody I tell you If a speaker is not 92db sens on very lowest , and to 95db at the highest. I pretty much, in fact dismiss it. My new tweet to avvive, Seas clone says 92db, if its really in real time 90db, its ok, tweeters can get a breat. But never a tweet at 89db, = trash. And yes I have the Jadis Defy, true 100 watts, can esaily drive a 4 ohm, low sens speaker with ease anda breeze. But you lose finesse. Higher sens speakers (92db+) sound better = higher fidelity. The Thors were in fact fidelity but at a lower level, 87db sens. Speakers to qualityb for HIGH fidelity is not such a simple EQ. THere are certain parimeters that have to be met, even before we can begin the evaluation on the actual voicing.
To evaluate a speakers level of fidelity,, its a not such a simple trask. Although it does not take me long being in a speakers prescence to make a immediate call on if its worth the demo, = does the speaker actually havea ticket? Or did it try to dona fancy cabinet, witha big name, highly promoted, well known, popular, famous even None of these things concern me. Just plop the speaker down, behind the curtain, I’ll tell you if it has flaws and what are the weaknesses to prevent it from being ~~~Classed~~ as a true ~~High Fidelity Speaker. (Philips lingo back in 1980 on their fantastic 475 2 way, 473 3 ways, also the Grafyz SP10 has the same AD162 magical tweeter)
WE need standards, reference speakers. WE need fair, unbiased, no snakeoil, straight shooting, TRUTHFUL , evalutaions and **opinions**. based on old seasoned experiences.
Good luck finding someone that will call the shot as the speaker REALLY sounds , w/o *bias* pun intentional. The Thors qualify as such a reference, as do all Troels Gravesen speakers. When it comes to speakers I show no mercy, no forgiveness.
|
look, let me make a feeble attempt to explain what i've been blabbing about these past 6 months or even longer. OK so the VS's have some sort of 3/4 way. Tweeter , OK, I have 1 now about to add a 2nd ck FR, not sure about the VS FR driver. Sounds **ok**, but can't say for sure. From the looks, its not on the same level as the DLVX8, which IMHO is based on the old legendary Coral Beta 8, which was the heir to EV and Jensen (I dont like Lowther, Fostex not sure, not heard the speaker). And VS has dual 8 or 10 inch woofers. I have none, So what I did was add another 6 FR to pad up the bass 60ish hz region, the DLVX 8 hits maybe 50hz, says 40hz on the specs, but I have no idea. VS's dual 10's give rock solid bass for hard hitting muisc. I listen to soft, classical, dont need dual woofers. All dual woofers is going to do is add ohms to the demand on the amp's power. My Defy could handel a woofer, but not with dual FR + dual tweeters( 2nd T arriving this week) 8 ohms x 4 on a 8 watt 2A3PP , already with 3 8ohms the outs are warming up a bit. adding another T might take the lil DHT PP to its very limit. AS I say my Defy could handle the VS . But again, dual woofers have no use for my music and small rm parimeters. The Duo FR + duo T's, will accomandate any size room, and any size amp, ,,well, if its a flea watt amp, 1-5 watts, better have nice trans, nothing cheap like in my Yaqin 2A3 amp. Lets take a look at VS4 specs,, be right back......
|
fleschler1,384 posts 01-01-2022 6:37pm @mozartfan - My friend's Von Schweikert VR-35 Export is a fantastic speaker with 1st order crossovers at 80 Hz and 6K Hz, essentially a full range driver (pair) with subwoofer and supertweeter. With a McIntosh C20 and RM-9 pre and amp, it reproduces music lifelife, huge soundstage, open, perfect tonality and with tunefull bass ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You know some months back i came across the VS speakers here on audiogon, Surprised me, as its the one and ONLY commercial speaker that ,,if you can believe it,,, that held my attention. Let me look more into its makeup,,,you say it actually has some sort of FR/wide band as mid??? Here it is with the incredible super SET ~~Kronzilla~~~ not the best record/cam quality, but we get a hint
|
@mozartfan - My friend's Von Schweikert VR-35 Export is a fantastic speaker with 1st order crossovers at 80 Hz and 6K Hz, essentially a full range driver (pair) with subwoofer and supertweeter. With a McIntosh C20 and RM-9 pre and amp, it reproduces music lifelife, huge soundstage, open, perfect tonality and with tunefull bass slam. It's a smaller version of the great Ultra 9 and 11. Sold for $10K direct in 2011, would cost double today with really high quality drivers and parts. MKII has even higher quality caps, cabling and additional dampening. I've never heard horns that sound that complete and wonderful.
|
Even if I could afford the big guns, Dali Sonus faber Rockport Wilson did I miss any?? oh yeah DALEAUS speakers $$$$$$$$
Even IF, I'd pass on all. and buy the ones I have now. Under,,R U ready.?? .Get this less than 1G. Fidelity has nothing whatsoever to do with price tag. Midrange only as reference, Sure the big guns dual 10 inch woofers will offer more (= LOUDER) bass. Big deal. All unbiased opiniosn based on exp of knowing how the very finest midwoofers perform. Along with oe of the best tweeters ever made. So dont come back and say **you dont know what you are talking about,. And both had Troels demands, high end drivers demand high end caps. I gave em all they needed to perform, yet they failed the test to quality as high fidelity. Theres a new kid on the block.
|
As Bob and others have stated, it is the OPs prerogative as to how they spend their hard-earned capital.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sure none of US (objectors to the OP’s ideology, fantasy, faulty beliefs ) to the EQ = More you spend = Better the speaker sound. Which as we all well seasoned audiophiles know thi is a false and fake dictum. More you spend never has, nor ever will **guarantee* super fidelity. And we all know who started this bogus nonsense,,, our old propagandists , big fat mouths, ~~~STEREOPHILE~~~~~~~~~~~~ aka Sterile-O-phile,,hahahahahaaaaaa Just setting the record STRAIGHT, once and for all time. I’d put my speakers up to any super mega price bloated speaker, any and all. Midrange as reference. |
just because a speaker is expensive has no meaning as to the level of fidelity. Fidelity, pure, neutral, natural, no coloratin, no resonances, no fq spikes, no fatigue, Just only reflects EXACTLY how the recording was made in the studio/symphony hall. As close to the actual perfomance as technically possible within limits of science. I’ve found vintage just don;’t cut the mustard, They are all colored with resonances. The only speakers that I know that qualify for fidelity as horns and FR. xover types are not in the same league. They all have issues. What amzaes me is that some audiophiles will continue to hold on to old memories of vintage speakers and believe they sound *fantastic*.
|
My friends and I heard the Botticellis at an audio show. Playing bass clarinet low notes, they were astounding. The trio played was superb. Unfortunately, they underpowered them for bigger jazz. We must go to the showroom to audition them with orchestral, big band, opera and rock to see how they handle complex instrumentation with dynamics. Otherwise, fabulous sound, better than Maggies. |
As Bob and others have stated, it is the OPs prerogative as to how they spend their hard-earned capital. It is unbecoming of those on an audio forum to be pejorative or cast aspersions on those who choose to spend what said folks deem as excessive. It is no one's right to tell anyone how to spend their money. In the end, this type of communication detracts from enjoyable discourse. And it certainly is not civil when conducted on an internet forum. Let civility reign. |
Somebody said buy some Maggies give the rest to charity... aside from what another contributor said Alzyvox Botticelli are a different world from Maggies, the second part of the statement is a good one. When you get to the pearly-gates, the giving to charity part might be your salvation. :-) But yes, I like the comments regarding the Alsyvox. A panel unlike any you might have heard before. Did I mention the deep, controlled, tone-full bass?
And the Bayz, yeah, I wish they made coffee. I think ocean liner anchor-chain, but I get the band-saw, drill press comments too. You should hear them if you get a chance, they'll knock your socks off. Really quite something! (The image below shows the smaller Courante 2.0 model. I have the big CounterPoint model enroute from Hungary... in matte black.)
|
I toured Egglestonworks in Memphis a few months ago and Jim auditioned his Ivy Signature SE's in his 'office'. It is a nice sized sound room and these speakers created the most lifelike wall of sound across an amazing soundstage. Maybe you could find them used for that price. Bob Ludwig chose them...that's a nice tip of the hat to these beauties.
|
[please excuse my poor English]
@mjbishop99 (=OP), please, be more specific. I attended countless of live, un-amplified performances (mainly classical) throughout Europe. It fine-tuned my ear-brain over the years, in a much more effective way than argumentation on forums.
QUESTIONS 1. Musical preferences ? jazz ? Classical ? Rock? (Wilsons are better on jazz than on classic. Harbeth, the opposite. Alsyvox ribbon panels and Aries Cerat Symphonia horn speakers -both OUTSTANDING- can play them all, etc). 2. Average listening level ? (any free "sonometer" app with your smartphone will help providing an answer) 3. Listener-speaker distance ? (it DOES matter a lot). In METERS, please. 4. Room size & acoustics ? (plain carpet? Wooden floor, etc)
SUGGESTIONS (for what it’s worth...). By decreasing importance:
So, go attending live performance. GO! ;-) (moreover, concerts cost peanuts compared to gear; and streaming music while sitting at home only rewards musicians with $0.15 (fifteen CENTS!!) for 7800 streams, a independent band said...).
Keep us posted ;-)
|
Designing and manufacturing a high end product is first of all risky and generally expensive. Making a successful and great sounding high end speaker is not for the faint of heart. Contrariwise, high end cable is as risky but generally not as expensive with huge margins (as are many tweaks). Can you imagine the Estalon speaker which uses a totally non-proprietary box, probably more expensive than the Bayz or a more conventional box? Those who design and manufacture their own drivers (Magico) or cross-over components (Wilson) really take audiophilia in a new direction. I don't bemoan the high sales price of high end speakers around $100,000. Plus, shipping costs due to high weight and demand for perfect finishes. What I don't appreciate is funny money high margin, often mass produced products (such as cables and tweaks). |
Imagine a bureaucracy briefed with designing and building a speaker that they would put on the market for $130,000. Committees, consultants, white boards, regulations, endless meetings and sub-committees formed. Various governments would come and go during which the brief would be tweaked and any progress made thus far would have to be re-examined.
|
For $78,000, the Estelon Diamond X Mark 11 or $130,000 the Forza $100,000 Von Schweikert Ultra 55s Possibly Evolution Acoustics MM7s or MM3s with outboard crossover Currnently, I have Legacy Focus speakers in a $150,000 custom built room. They sound more like expensive speakers. Major difference is the higher resolution / ambiance that the expensive speakers have. I have the bass, tonality and prat at $2,500 and low amp requirements. I am missing that wonderful ambiance that I've heard from the best speakers as well as wide sweet spot. |
Diesis, Alsyvox, and Bayz are all very room friendly speakers, more so than Wilson (in my opinion). To get the full potential of Wilson will take more time tweaking setup than any of the speakers mentioned above, yet all speakers benefit from careful setup. (Properly setup Wilsons will deliver a lot of sonic goodness no-doubt; the Alexx V are great speakers.) And while room treatment can & will help in most cases, having a room friendly speaker lessens the need and increases the WAF because you won’t have wall tampons and corner tampons everywhere. |
"Are you f$&kin kidding me? Can you please explain how spending money on a luxury item is “bad for the planet”? This is why people roll their eyes at tree huggers." The earth is about 4 billion years old. Humans and their ancestors have been walking the planet for about 6 million years. Humans are bad for the planet! |
@verdantaudio Yeah those those 109db sensitive Avantgarde Trios would be the perfect match for Boulder 2160s😁 |
