Has anyone mentioned Cary SLP 98?
Best Preamp New or Used up to $3,000 ??
Okay I am listening. The models I am looking at are:
Audible Illusions L3 .$2,000+
Aesthetic Calypso.$2,000+.
Prima Luna Dialogue $2,200
EAR 834L.$1,700.
Benchmark LA4 (New) $2,600.
McIntosh 2500.$4,000 (Over budget but has tone controls and Phono stage)
Other Equipment: Cary MK 120-s, Oppo 205, Older Tannoys FSMs-very efficient.
Music I enjoy: Vocals, 70 db, Near field position.
So if you have owned any of the above, please share your experience.
I am attracted to these brands as they seem to place value on things related to musicality.
Separate quality Power supply, Dual Mono setup, Quality components. Remotes (except EAR)
So what am I not valuing that I should be?
Thanks in advance.
Audible Illusions L3 .$2,000+
Aesthetic Calypso.$2,000+.
Prima Luna Dialogue $2,200
EAR 834L.$1,700.
Benchmark LA4 (New) $2,600.
McIntosh 2500.$4,000 (Over budget but has tone controls and Phono stage)
Other Equipment: Cary MK 120-s, Oppo 205, Older Tannoys FSMs-very efficient.
Music I enjoy: Vocals, 70 db, Near field position.
So if you have owned any of the above, please share your experience.
I am attracted to these brands as they seem to place value on things related to musicality.
Separate quality Power supply, Dual Mono setup, Quality components. Remotes (except EAR)
So what am I not valuing that I should be?
Thanks in advance.
43 responses Add your response
Synergy with your other components is key. In your price range the McIntosh C220 tune pre amp is certainly a contender. I have 2.6 Maggies driven by McIntosh 501s via a C220 pre amp that I paid 2,500 for. After years of searching, I quit changing components and just got into my music. Your ears may differ in sound choice, but think synergy between amp, pre amp and speakers. |
dsperHi, my answer to your question is first, but the last paragraph is the way to go. With your 10kohm input impedance on the DNA500 it need 2.2v for full output, very hard to get a tube or passive to work with this. But a 10kohm passive because it’s essentially a another resistive load to ground like the input of the amp. What the source will see is 2 x 10kohm load to ground which equals 5kohm. Your lucky because your HD30 is a very low 22ohms output impedance at 2.6v, this should be no problems driving into combined 5kohms above, and you have 2.6v at you disposal from your source, you only need 2.25v in for full output on the DNA. But why go this way you Hegal HD30 dac has a "high quality volume control" use it direct into your amp instead as it will be the very best for transparency and dynamics and an absolute perfect match. This way you can use rca or balanced because the Hegal and DNA500 have both, try both as it can go either way which sounds best. (read your manual on how to activate and use this 0-100 level remote control volume control) Cheers George |
Georgehifi4, Not to steal the Op's thread... I run a McCormack DNA 500 with input impedance of 10,000 ohms. My Hegel DAC is 2.5 volts. Speakers are Thiel CS5's, which are pretty inefficient with frequency response of 23Hz–20kHz ±1dB. Any tube preamp suggestions? Could a passive work? Thanks for listening, Dsper |
Because an "active preamp" cannot increase the dynamic range any more than what source is giving, unless it has an inbuilt "dynamic range enhancer" (DBX and they sound s**t). It can only serve to reduce the dynamic range, because it's not "a piece of wire"I don't like DBX either for the same reason. But that's not the problem; what a good preamp can do is not mess up the relationship of the output impedance of the source with respect to the cable or the amplifier input impedance. For this reason a buffer without gain can often work as well if no gain is required. IOW, a preamp does not have to increase dynamic impact, it simply has to preserve it, which many passives simply fail to do. Its only taken digital designers about 20-30 years to come around to the fact that they need to put a good quality volume control in their gear. Because so many don't, this is a good reason for an active preamp. Additionally, should any other source be desired, like a tuner or turntable, a preamp is mandatory since those source don't drive a power amp to full output. |
Contact Tim Stinson at Luminous Audio. Several months ago I replaced two $5-$6 K preamps with a Luminous Audio Axiom, Walker mod, 3 in, 2 out, single ended, with remote, passive unit, and could not be happier. What I am hearing is less coloration, greater levels of detail and information, and a greater sense of prat, dynamics and space. If you want to hear what the recording, mixing and mastering engineers of your recorded music have done, this is the way. Go to their website. Enjoy, MrD. |
Hi Jeff There are so many ways to change the sound of your system, and everything affects everything else. I wouldn't jump into a preamp until I studied all the variables your system can give you by adding components. It's also important to do the apples vs apples thing. I'm sure everyone here means well, but are they listening the same way you are? For example: someone recommending a preamp for you listening to their setup "far field" while your listening "near field" really doesn't tell you much. I'm an extreme near field listener myself in my current setup and some of the preamps suggested I wouldn't touch, because frankly they don't do so well when your near fielding it. Now you may be closer to a "mid field" listener than I am, but I would be careful as to not screwup your stage envelope. All of these preamps are probably great setup a certain way, but for the near field listener, we tend to want to fall deeper into the stage (at least I do). So my suggestion when asking people stuff is to see where they are at as a listener. Huge difference between an against the wall listener and mid, near or extreme near. good luck, just thought I would jump in since you mentioned position Michael Green |
many sources don't really provide an adequate means of controlling the artifacts of the interconnect cable and often have substandard means of controlling volume (the Oppo is a good example of the latter).The correction to the above is. That only a "very few" sources don't provide. (some tube ones). And they all have to "control" interconnects going to the pre, I don't know any that don't pass their signal without using interconnects, unless you use wireless transmission. And many have volume controls better than what's in many preamps. A passive control is **not** a simple bit of wire-I don't ever think I said it was, but what I have said it's the next best thing to doing direct, which is "like a piece of wire". Reducing impact is the most common complaint we hear about passive volume control systems.And this is your most common complaint, there are a multitude of others that say it's the other way around. Because an "active preamp" cannot increase the dynamic range any more than what source is giving, unless it has an inbuilt "dynamic range enhancer" (DBX and they sound s**t). It can only serve to reduce the dynamic range, because it's not "a piece of wire" Cheers George |
As the fabled "perfect" preamp "sound like a piece of wire" adding or detracting nothing which is what your doing now by going direct.The problem with a straight wire is that many sources don't really provide an adequate means of controlling the artifacts of the interconnect cable and often have substandard means of controlling volume (the Oppo is a good example of the latter). A passive control is **not** a simple bit of wire- the effect of the control can be to reduce the efficacy of the output coupling capacitor of the source while at the same time effectively increasing the apparent output impedance of the source, thus reducing bass impact. Reducing impact is the most common complaint we hear about passive volume control systems. |
Music I enjoy: Vocals, 70 db, Near field position. I am attracted to these brands as they seem to place value on things related to musicality. Really? This is what we've got to go on? How about making a little effort in describing more about what type of sonic improvements you're looking for and/or what aspects of sound reproduction are most important to you? You'll just get potshots and personal preferences here until you get more specific about what you're really looking for. |
A lot of good suggestions above. One thing, where you said this... Separate quality Power supply, Dual Mono setup, Quality components. Remotes (except EAR) Are you saying you want reco’s with these attributes? Would we assume no Phono ever? For now I’ll ussume not. As always, system synergy, and matching the owners musical priorities are key. Nothing I can say should get in the way your experimenting and finding your own way. Not mentioned thus far: Wyetech Supratek MFA Lumi VTL ASL Flora Coincident CLS Some of the above could have Phono included in them. A few, depending on where in a manufacturers lineup they are may be within the budget, where other might stretch it slightly. if you’ve got some fun money to try something out, buy it used, live with it and see it make you heart sing. If not keep changing it up until you can pinpoint the one. I owned 4 of the above plus a Modwright and a Audio Research. All have there strengths and weaknesses. My journey found that my ear really seamed to prefer 6SN7 based Pre’s more than the others. I found what works for me. I hope you can find your utopia. While you might find inspiration here on the boards, nothing will better in home evaluations first hand. Good luck with the journey! |
@firstnot, I recently got a Rhumba 1.3 and love what I am hearing. This is my first tube component. Now I am about sure if it is a Solid state Vs Tubes or Active Vs Passive, but the imaging created by this preamp is amazing! I am waiting on a Cullen Crossover II power cord, to replace the stock power cord that came with this preamp, before I update my system pics. |
PS Audio BHK tube/solid state hybrid preamp. Rock solid build and fluid musicality. List price is $6000, but go online to The Music Room in Broomfield, Co. and work a deal on a new or very clean used. Under $3K is very doable. They WILL deal, they just can’t post prices online per PS Audio marketing rules. They’ll also buy your current equipment a very reasonable prices. |
Many good pre amps in that list. For me, the synergy between the pre amp and amp is critical. I spent a number of years swapping out equipment before finding the right match. I started with a decent AR tube pre amp, but needed more power for my Maggie’s as the really like a strong amp. I ended up with a Mac C220 about 9 years ago that has the same value today if I decided to sell, something to remember. we all have our own experiences and ear for the music we love, there is no magic bullet, but rather many good choices. What works for me may not be the same as what you eat prefers, enjoy the ride! |
Hi there, Just to clarify some things mentioned here, - Our preamps have a very low output impedance of 75 ohms, meaning we can drive any power amplifier nicely - All of our current models’ XLR inputs and outputs are fully differential balanced (dealers have told us that our Rhumba 1.3 at $3.5K is the only balanced tube preamp on the market under $5K, we haven’t checked to confirm) ... this leads to noise reduction over long cable runs. Personally I hear no benefit or detriment vs single-ended over normal/usual cable lengths - To George’s point, our gain is a reasonable 8 dB ... we can adjust down to 3 dB - Our customers who used Oppo or other sources direct to their amps have loved the improvement a Backert Labs provides. Our sound is very pure and clean to my ears [this is Andy writing, I’m a pianist, vocalist and drummer working in live bands for 35+ years]. Lively, uncolored, not “tubey” or “solid state” sounding. If you’re within driving distance from Delaware/PA/NJ/MD/VA let me know, I’ll bring one over and we can hear it in action. -Andy Tebbe President |
+1 on Georgehifi counsel. Perhaps rather than a traditional separate preamp, consider an alternate solution. I do not like my OPPO 105 direct to amps for audio. Besides it doesn't have analog input. SO, I use a bel canto design DAC3.7.(which is a DAC/PREAMP w external PSU, analog input, balance and volume control and full function remote) My phono preamp is plugged into the bel canto 3.7's analog input and OPPO in to it via coax. Extremely satisfying in all ways audiophile and most of all sounds and feels like real people playing music on real instruments in real spaces. Every preamp (active and passive) introduced (up to $12k) detracted from the fidelity. Hearing your listing musical first and my experience with OPPOs leads me to wonder if the OPPO with it's Sabre dacs and output stage might not be your ideal musical sound. Don't think you'll that dac and output stage sound signature to your liking by inserting a conventional preamp into the signal chain - regardless of brand or tweak. My sense you will be happier with a more musical DAC/PRE than with a conventional preamp. And later when you can a better transport. Best wishes. |
firstnot OPIf you like the sound you are getting then leave it be, as it will be the most transparent/dynamic you can get. But should you feel the need to "color" eg: distort the sound, you can do it by adding a preamp, but they all sound different coloration distortions, so you’ll be on a bit of a merry go-round to find the right one that suits your needs. As the fabled "perfect" preamp "sound like a piece of wire" adding or detracting nothing which is what your doing now by going direct. Cheers George |
@twoleftears Its a bit hard to sort out from their website how their preamps work, but it appears that the balanced connections use transformers both for input and output. If that is the case, then it might support the standard. This is because a transformer can have a floating input and a floating output, which is what is needed to support the standard (in particular the floating output). Part of the standard is the ability to drive low impedances, and its not clear from any of the information I've seen online whether that is possible, but a phone call could sort that out. |
If you search hard you can find the Mcintosh C50 lightly used (or NOS) at your price point, it has adjustable load MC (and MM) phono and tone controls. Highly recommended. there is also a Mcintosh C200 on enay in your price range, for phono stage use only, c100/200 are the bees knees and beat out many other phono preamps 2-3x’s their original retail price! |
Audio Note Kits (ANK) L3! Take your time and look around for a used one that usually sell in the $1500-$2500 range depending on components installed. I had one years ago sold it for financial reasons and just repurchased an L3 upgraded to L4. Very happy! Also look into the Shinny Eyes preamps made by Radu Tarta. Excellent sounding transformer coupled preamp at a very reasonable price. https://simplepleasuretubeamps.wordpress.com/ |
firstnot Lets look at this with some sanity, no-one else has yet. 1: Oppo 205 voltage output 2.1v se 4.2v xlr 2: Cary120 sensitivity only 1.2v in for full output, at 100kohm input z 3: Tannoy FMS 97db efficiency!!! Look at this closely, the last thing you need is an active preamp with even more gain, you’ll be at 8 o’clock for full ear spitting output. What you need is a preamp with little or no gain or a passive preamp. And that 100kohm input impedance on the Cary means anything will drive it. Cheers George |
Since I repair many audio products monthly, you would be hard pressed to find something that has the sound of an old Counterpoint SA-5 preamp. They can be upgraded with ease to sound even better. All tube design and they sound fantastic. Or you can get an SA-2000 and send it to me and I can upgrade the unit for you to sound like nothing you ever heard in the price range you are looking at. Happy Listening. |
The Atma-Sphere MP-3 is a fully balanced fully differential tube preamp with a direct-coupled output. Since your Cary has a balanced differential input, the MP-3 would have a leg up over the others mentioned here, on account of the fact that while some of the other preamps on your list are balanced, the MP-3 supports the balanced standard while the others do not. The advantage of the balanced standard (otherwise known as AES48) is that there will be far less need to audition the interconnect cables- the balanced standard was conceived to reduce or eliminate interconnect cable artifacts, and its very effective at that. You can sometimes MP-3 preamps used within your price point, sometimes even with a phono section (optional). |