Best Loudspeakers for Rich Timbre?

Boenicke

Wow! I didn’t realize they even let Amish folk into high end audio stores. 🙄

Geshundheit!

Shahinian. 

I was in NYC the other week and got to stop by In Living Stereo. Hoped to maybe hear Devores for first time ever but didn’t happen. Maybe next time.

Audio Notes with corner placement always one of my favorite sounds at every show I hear them.

I heard the AN-E's and O/93's the same day, albeit in different environments.  In terms of sheer purity of timbre, I'd definitely give it to the Audio Notes.

cd318 wrote (in part):

It's just that it's [playback through the larger Tannoys] so emotionally satisfying, especially with some classic EMI 1950s and 60s recordings where it feels like everything has aligned and this is as close to perfect as you're gonna get!).

An astute observation. Perhaps a factor in this sonic chemistry is that the EMI recordings were likely monitored and mixed on large Tannoys, such that the recordings and the playback speakers are figuratively speaking the same "language."

@analogluvr + @prof 

I'm glad you both brought up the issue of that "warm woody" sound. What prof writes about DeVores I found also applies to many of the larger Tannoys (even the slim floor standing Revolution 3s share this quality. When you first hear it you immediately think it must be wrong, too much mid bass, too warm, can't be right, and yet...it sounds so lovely, so real that convinces you that most other speakers must be wrong.  

I have to agree that the line 'you start to notice a warm colouration in all pieces of music that is being imposed by the speaker.' also applies to my experience. It's just that it's so emotionally satisfying, especially with some classic EMI 1950s and 60s recordings where it feels like everything has aligned and this is as close to perfect as you're gonna get!).

In my experience this is the best I have heard at home and almost the best anywhere else. However things might change as I'm hoping to get to the Audio Show 2018 next month at Leamington Spa. It will my first in about a decade and the good news is that Vivid Audio and Audio Note UK will be there.

If we get to hear some exotic US brands at the show, well that would be the 'living end'. Yes, I know, I have read too many Stan Lee comics.   

kosst_amojan writes:

Lots of things aren’t huge radiating surfaces. Flutes. Horns. Human voices. I certainly think dipole speakers have advantages you can’t get any other way, but they have disadvantages unlike any other speaker too.

Well, the funny thing about my 1.7s is how well it reproduces the very things you cite--flutes, horns, and voices.
I first noticed it when--soon after installing my 1.7s, I played the LP version of Holly Cole’s "Temptation" album. The song, "The Briar and the Rose," is accompanied by the Canadian Brass. The rendition of this brass ensemble was stunning, the best I’ve ever heard in my house, and only (maybe) bettered by a demo I heard of the Wilson Alexandrias.
The Magnepans are more than just dipoles. They are boxless panel speakers. They are also line sources, and their radiating patterns have nulls to the sides, keeping the rooms side walls largely out of the equation (true also of other dipoles).
There are several things about the Magnepan x.7 series that supersede all the dogma about previous maggies--grainy, lack of low level detail, hard to drive, etc. The first in the current series, the 1.7 wound up being the proof of concept of the new generation, and soon Magnepan offered the .7, 3.7, and 20.7, and a few years later, the very ambitious 30.7.
Whatever the new Maggies do for piano reproduction (which is hard to ignore), it does not affect their ability to provide stunning reproductions of a wide selection of instruments and voices.
I have been listening to mine almost daily for nearly 5 years.

audiotroy writes:So the reason why timbre is so difficult is that all systems are colored and true accuracy accross all freqencies is very hard to achieve.

True enough as stated, but I submit that the speaker/room interaction and the resulting radiating patterns have a profound influence on timbre.
It also has a profound influence when speakers have radiating diaphragms that approximate the instruments they are reproducing.
In my experience, the X.7i series Magnepans with their large dipolar radiating surfaces reproduce piano better for less money than just about any other speaker I've heard, including earlier Maggies.
I grew up in a live music environment; my mom was church organist and pianist for 20+ years; so was my sister. Her son competed in the Tchaikovsky piano competition. I used to hear him practice extensively on their family's grand piano. In 1991-3 I worked part time at a mega piano store that carried Steinway, Boesendorfer, Schimmel, Seiler, Falcone, and Mason & Hamlin concert grands. They also were skilled piano restorers, and I heard plenty of 100 to 180 yr. old restored grand pianos.

A well-recorded grand piano played through my Magnepan 1.7s astounds me every time. A part of it is the radiating surface size, but so is the radiating pattern and how the audio output energizes the room as a piano would.
If you disagree, fine. YMMV.

You’re so funny when you channel the big windbag from 12 Angry Men. 😡 “No, it’s not!” “You can’t prove it!” 

All wire is directional. You’re in denial as usual. Not only that you still don’t even know what directionally is. Have you considered going back and getting your GED?

Are you all sure this isn't a troll? I mean, the question, as posed, is pretty much the same as asking "Best Loudspeakers for Good Sound." Not sure why you all are wasting time answering.

Wow! You completely sidestepped the whole issue of why some caps that measure the same sound different. Of course you would since it shoots down your entire raison d’etre. Never mind. Besides the caps I’m taking about are *symmetrical*. I have no idea what you’re talking about. Furthermore, it must have something to do with wire directionality since all wire is directional. Hel-loo!

Thanks to shadorne and audiotroy as david_ten said.

My rig is built "exactly" as shadorne suggested, works perfect for me.

Wealthy (and overbearing) relative of Joe Timbre. 😊

Who’s Rich Timbre??

(sorry, couldn’t resist... lol, crazy day at work!)

Differences between caps you can measure? Sure, if the capacitors are of different values. But what if they are the same value and the same tolerance but sound different? What then?

Pop quiz: are (non polarized) capacitors directional? You know, since the wire is directional.

“There is no such thing as a speaker that is good at reproducing timbre”

This comment is a bit misleading.   A speaker is nothing more than a combination of assembled parts. The parts themselves are good or less good at delivering accurate or true timbre. Capacitors vary greatly in this ability. Ditto for resistors and inductors. Wire also plays a role in timbre. What about those drivers, magnets, the cabinet design etc.... Now bringing all of these parts together is truly both an art and science when trying to deliver pure timbre. Timbre is found right down to the individual part in addition to how they all interact together.

That being said we still listen to systems.....not speakers. Timbre will, in the end, be a result of the complete system including the room and speaker placement.

@prof  some very well thought out posts previous.
While I recommend Tannoy frequently to folks with this kind of question, I myself am one of those who had a pair for numerous years but then moved on. Basically for the reasons you cited earlier, you start to notice a warm colouration in all pieces of music that is being imposed by the speaker. It does sound lovely with lotta music though.  while I like the sound of the Devore it strikes me as one of those types of speakers. I could be wrong, I haven't spent a ton of time in front of them. 

cd318,

Yes I think we get what each other is talking about.

I haven’t spent a lot of time with much of the Tannoy line, with the exception of the Tannoy Dimension TD10, which my pal had for a while.They definitely had the "warm woody" thing going for timbre, string sections sound especially warm and gorgeous. (The big Tannoy Churchill speakers I heard long ago also struck me the same way IIRC).

The problem with such a coloration for me is not going too far. I’ve had a few speakers that had that woody, warm timbre that made me instantly like them - I’m thinking at the moment of the long forgotten Audio Physic Libras, and a couple Meadowlark Audio speakers I had. The issue I had was over the long haul it was just a little too much coloration, making the sound a bit too predictable, even if comfy.


The Thiel speakers I own now (I had the 3.7s and now have the 2.7s) are more neutral in that regard, definitely doing organic timbres like wood and voices really well, but not obviously overlaying everything with that flavor. So they feel like a more satisfying speaker for a longer haul to me.

It’s hard for me to know if the Devores would prove to be more like the previous speakers I mentioned and grow tiring, or not. My impressions from auditioning the Devores is that they strike a really nice balance between the richness I like in the midrange/upper bass while sounding quite neutral and open beyond that.

But...there are so many speakers out there!

(The most realistic piano sound I can remember hearing was through the Kef Blades at an audio show. Blew me away!)

@prof  "I'm pretty nuts about correct, organic sounding timbre so that's always been job one for any speaker I have owned. The problem has been for me that instrumental timbre often doesn't sound organic, but more glazed and electronic/plastic through most speaker systems. I had usually found the best I could do was pick a speaker (and with judicious amp choice) that had traits consonant with what I like about real life sounds. A number of speakers I've owned and ones I've liked have had a somewhat "woody" character or timbral tone because that at least imparted an organic quality to sounds that helped many things sound more "real" to me - from acoustic guitars, string instruments, even the "woodiness" of the reed in a saxophone. Or drum sticks, and even to some degree voices. (I'm not talking about some ridiculous level of woody coloration, but more the sense that the sound is made of organic material, vs plastic, steel, and electrons).  

The Devores are one of those speakers that to my ears has a canny bit of coloration that is very consonant with how real sounds impress me, so in that sense they often sound more "natural" to me than other strictly more neutral (or other non-neutral) speakers.  

The Joseph speakers are more like the Hales speakers I have owned (and still own), where I get the sense of much reduced distortion/coloration revealing timbral qualities. So I find the sound a bit more varied from such speakers. But then, they also sometimes miss some of the particularly papery, organic sense of touch from the Devores, and some of the realistic fullness and weight.  So....it's always compromises."


Yes this woody" character or timbral tone that at least imparts an organic quality to the sound is also my starting point for choosing a loudspeaker (or headphones) and has been for years. That "glazed and electronic/plastic" sound emanating from far too many speakers bores me quickly. 

However, unlike your good self I have been unable to progress beyond this point, instead promising myself to perhaps dabble with tubes one day when the kids are older. Especially after reading some of the wonderful articles by the late Harvey "Gizmo" Rosenberg.

After owning various Tannoy loudspeakers, including 15 inch DCs I get the impression that the DeVore speakers might share some of the DNA with the classic Tannoys. More of the same perhaps slightly more refined. It's great to know that others are also looking further in this particular direction.
 
Thanks again for your pointers and putting into words what, for me at least, still remains largely uncharted territory.

audiotroy,

This is a ridiculous post. There is no such thing as a speaker that is good at reproducing timbre.

Sure there is.


All sorts of speakers can be better or worse at reproducing accurate, or realistic instrumental timbre. If you play a good recording (in this sense meant to maintain the natural sound of the instrument) then there are all sorts of distortions and frequency deviations by which a speaker can screw up the timbre. That’s obvious isn’t it? Regardless of the fact other components can screw up the sound as well, that’s true of speakers.

Yes there are "rich" sounding speakers but that is not necessarily going to reproduce all instruments naturally.

Yup. I think everyone acknowledges that.


But then even the most accurate speaker isn’t going to reproduce all instruments naturally, because there is so much variation in recording quality and styles. So you don’t win that way either, if you listen to a broad range of recordings as most people do.


So this problem can reasonably motivate someone to look for a speaker that produces a certain characteristic one likes with much of what one listens to.


For instance, one of the aspects of reproduced sound through most systems is, I find, a diminution of body and presence of voices and instruments. So that might be an aspect of sound I want to "get back" with the speaker I choose, within the limitations of budget, size room constraints, etc. (If you have the money and room size, well then no doubt the type of limitations I’m talking about can be transcended, but many of us are dealing with compromises).


To use the example I’ve given of the Devore speakers: They manage, to my ears, to reproduce sound with a generally fuller sense of body than the other speakers I’ve heard in that price range/size. It sounds "more real and natural" in that respect to me. I don’t know for sure that it’s a coloration or simply an aspect of sound reproduction better produced by the design, but even if it’s an added coloration, it’s one that enhances a broad spectrum of recordings to a more believable satisfying presentation than some other well regarded speakers I’ve heard. (This is of course just my own perception and taste, not some objective claim that Devore speakers are "better" - I'm just bringing them in as an example).


Would such a coloration actually impede in some other areas or recordings, making for instance some elements timbrally "too rich?"
Sure, most likely. But that’s a trade off, just like a really accurate system will often have you experiencing the trade off of thin recordings giving you unnatural, synthetic sounding instruments and voices.


But in any case, there is nothing wrong at all with discussing the contribution of one type of component - speakers - and *their particular effect in the chain* even if as we all know it’s one part of the chain.

Thank You: @shadorne  and @audiotroy 

This is a ridiculous post. There is no such thing as a speaker that is good at reproducing timbre.

Timbre is a result of all of the components capturing the essence of the instrument and reproducing that signal as accurately as possible.

The entire reproduction chain is responsible for a system's complete sound. So the amp, preamp, cables, source components, room, loudspeakers, cabling etc will all come into play.

If your system isn't reproducing instruments natrually you have to look at how each piece is working together. 

Yes there are "rich" souninding speakers but that is not necessarily going to reproduce all instruments naturally. Same things with brighter or more detailed loudspeakers, which may sound incredibily real reproducing high frequency sounds, but may not sound as wooden for midrange frequencies as the "richer" sounding loudspeakers.

So the reason why timbre is so difficult is that all systems are colored and true accuracy accross all freqencies is very hard to accheive.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Thiel Audio.

@inna

Like I said, Inna, you are free to spend your money as you wish. But I will say this: every time I get a yearning for a tone control, an improvement elsewhere makes it unnecessary.

For example, when I went to vacuum and air gap capacitors, a whole lot of tizz simply vanished.

- Compensation is necessary to create the illusion of recreating the original -

Exactly, and well-said.

terry9, Purist Audio's designer is a former NASA engineer specializing in underwater acoustics and signal transmission. Tchernov cables are designed by engineers building military grade equipment. I am sure those people understand enough of physics. But Jim Aud of Purist is also clearly an artist with excellent hearing. If you think that you can compete with them and others, that's okay with me but that's not a proof.

Legacy Audio Aeris and Legacy Audio Focus SE would be at the top of the list.   

Well, Inna, I still prefer physics.

Differences between caps I can measure. Ditto resistors. Ditto inductors. Ditto dielectrics. I'll spend my money there first. And I'm still not finished with things I can measure.

But you spend your money as you see fit. If you think that cables are better bang for buck than nude Vishay input resistors, you are welcome to your opinion. I won't even accuse you of not understanding whatever.

fsonicsmith,


Excellent comment!


I believe I know just what you are talking about in terms of a "woody" timbre and compensating toward real life.


I'm pretty nuts about correct, organic sounding timbre so that's always been job one for any speaker I have owned.  The problem has been for me that instrumental timbre often doesn't sound organic, but more glazed and electronic/plastic through most speaker systems.  I had usually found the best I could do was pick a speaker (and with judicious amp choice) that had traits consonant with what I like about real life sounds.  A number of speakers I've owned and ones I've liked have had a somewhat "woody" character or timbral tone because that at least imparted an organic quality to sounds that helped many things sound more "real" to me - from acoustic guitars, string instruments, even the "woodiness" of the reed in a saxophone.  Or drum sticks, and even to some degree voices.  (I'm not talking about some ridiculous level of woody coloration, but more the sense that the sound is made of organic material, vs plastic, steel, and electrons).  


The Devores are one of those speakers that to my ears has a canny bit of coloration that is very consonant with how real sounds impress me, so in that sense they often sound more "natural" to me than other strictly more neutral (or other non-neutral) speakers.  


The Joseph speakers are more like the Hales speakers I have owned (and still own), where I get the sense of much reduced distortion/coloration revealing timbral qualities.  So I find the sound a bit more varied from such speakers.  But then, they also sometimes miss some of the particularly papery, organic sense of touch from the Devores, and some of the realistic fullness and weight.   So....it's always compromises.  

Spending $10 on cables would get anyone nowhere, unless you steal these cables and $10 is your taxi bill.
It is remarkable that many don't understand that cables are components, they are equally important. Another mistake is to think that they are easier to design than electronics, speaking of high level.
How to best stretch your dollar when upgrading cannot be answered in general, sometimes it should be active component upgrade, sometimes cables or power cords, and yet at times either would be a correct path, just different.

Roger that. With my ARC Ref 6 and Ref 150SE, cabling made a huge difference. In my room, for my ears, with my gear, Cardas Clear speaker cable and Cardas Clear Beyond XLR's made everything "right", It was nothing less than shocking how much difference I heard among some pretty well respected cables. I've said this elsewhere in this forum-I suspect that those who don't hear much difference between cables have equipment that for one reason or another don't put much demand on cabling. I believe that both the ARC pieces do in terms of getting the best out of the preamp and that the DeVore's do in terms of getting the best out of the amp. The truth of timbre was apparent with some but not all of the competitors but with the Cardas, timbre and spacial relationships and transients and bass weight all reached new heights. I don't sell Cardas. I am not in the biz. There are quite likely other brands of cables that would have done the same job. 
As I interpret Prof's point, you have to distinguish between color saturation and accurate timbre. As an owner of DeVore O/93's I would say that they do a blend of both. I wish I could say otherwise, but they are not the last word on timbral accuracy. But they portray timbre in a believable way and they ever so slightly emphasize timbre. I'm not sure who it was, but one of S'Phile's reviewers criticized the DeVore O series as sounding a bit "woody". I reluctantly agree, but I have come to find it a virtue and not a defect. The woodiness is so slight and complimentary to virtually everything played that it reminds me of the importance of judiciously implemented oak in wine. It is not perfectly neutral but perfectly neutral in audio is a) not realistic and b) not particularly enjoyable. It's not realistic because playing back a performance though two loudspeakers is never going to be totally realistic. Compensation is necessary to create the illusion of recreating the original. 

To echo previous recommendations- you should really hear the Legacy Audio Aeris. I've heard them with tube amps, solid state amps and Class D amps and every time they sound incredible. If you pair it with their Wavelet you can use the tone controls to adjust the speaker's brightness/warmth to your liking- it's really flexible and helpful because you can fine tune them in your room and aren't stuck like you are with most speakers.
Funny enough, the recordings you referenced as tonally rich like Sinatra used Legacy Audio speakers, in addition to Nat King Cole and Elvis.They're simply the most dynamically capable, full range and revealing speaker around, and if you want to hear the real timbre on those recordings, it will show you!

The often neglected subject of timbre in modern designs could be a major factor in explaining why some connoisseurs like Peter Qvortrup of Audio Note casually state that in their opinion audio reproduction has gone backwards in the last half century.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/parttimeaudiophile.com/2018/01/25/peter-qvortrup-high-fidelity-the-de...

They are talking predominantly of the era in which tubes and high efficiently drivers were used both in analogue recording and playback systems. Innumerable lush, tonally rich recordings such as those by Bing Crosby, Frank Sinatra, Doris Day, Nat Cole, Peggy Lee, and innumerable Jazz artists still survive today as testament to fabulous recording quality of those times.

The main focus in the modern era often seems geared towards the pursuit of cold fine detail through ever increasing bit rates and oversampling techniques. Impressive in the short term but rarely satisfying in the long. At least for some.

One seems to appeal mainly to the intellect, the other to the heart. It's always difficult to generalise but I think Qvortrup is basically right if you're looking for music reproduction which speaks predominantly to the heart. Generally speaking, I've heard few loudspeakers that employ paper as a cone material which sounded awful, and even fewer that used polypropylene that sounded great.

So many great suggestions here, the Joseph Audio ones being intriguing with their aluminium drivers and the Focal Sopra review which namechecked another metal driver loudspeaker, the fabulously expensive Vivid Audio Giya G2.

Thanks for all the suggestions, it's reassuring to know that timbre has not been forgotten by everyone. 

Triangle Magellan, DeVore, JM Reynaud...

inna,

It is remarkable that many don't understand that cables are components, they are equally important.

Everyone understands cables are a component.  You don't get sound without them, and they have to be matched at least in the most basic sense to the situation in which they will be used (e.g. right length/capacitance, etc).   


The question is, how much does one need to spend in order to pass along a signal with high fidelity?   The answer seems to be: not nearly as much as audiophile lore suggests.

Spending $10 on cables would get anyone nowhere, unless you steal these cables and $10 is your taxi bill.

What then is the lower limit you suggest, and on what grounds?


My speaker cables are Belden, put together by Blue Jeans cable.
If you buy two 6 foot lengths it costs $14.50.  


It seems to me $14 bucks for speaker cable is close enough to your 10 bucks that "would get you nowhere" claim.    And yet my system sounds incredibly good - as good and often better than plenty of the systems with audiophile-approved-cabling I've listened to.  So low cost cable certainly "got me somewhere" quite impressive.  (BTW, the appraisal of my system isn't simply my own,  I've had many audiophiles listen, including friends who review big priced audio gear, who think it sounds fantastic).  


So, I'm afraid your claim doesn't get very far in my experience. 

Spending $10 on cables would get anyone nowhere, unless you steal these cables and $10 is your taxi bill. 
It is remarkable that many don't understand that cables are components, they are equally important. Another mistake is to think that they are easier to design than electronics, speaking of high level.
How to best stretch your dollar when upgrading cannot be answered in general, sometimes it should be active component upgrade, sometimes cables or power cords, and yet at times either would be a correct path, just different.

One more for Tannoy Prestige range

I'll throw in another vote for ProAc !

Cheap components in speaker crossovers can cause serious problems with timbral accuracy by introducing distortion which masquerades as 'fast leading edge'.

Therefore suggest that you consider speakers without crossovers or delay lines. Or, consider upgrading those components in speakers of choice.

Almost all manufacturers work to a price point. Cheap crossover components are an obvious place to save - but fortunately, they are an easy thing to upgrade. I have had good luck dealing with Parts Connexion and Michael Percy Audio (no connection).

If you are good with a soldering iron, it's a lot of bang for buck. If you are on a budget, spend $10 on cables and $5000 on component upgrades instead of the other way around. YMMV

I have no idea what is a "neutral" sounding speaker.  That implies some kind of reference; what is that reference?  The correct speaker is the one that sounds most musical to the beholder.  It would help if the original poster would provide a personal reference of stuff that sounded good and stuff that sounded to thin or bleached of "color."  At best, I can hazard a guess that this person is looking for something from the likes of Audio Note, the O93 or O96 DeVore, Vandersteen, Harbeth (particularly the 40.2), ProAc, JM Reynaud, Trenner and Friedl, and Charney.  There are some speakers that may sound a bit bright on top that still manage to deliver weight, upper bass warms, and natural timbre (e.g., Triangle speakers).

The very best speakers, in terms of delivering saturated harmonics and timbre, to me, are horn-based systems, but these require some expertise to assemble or are quite pricey; they involve finding and using older/exotic drivers or really expensive new drivers (e.g., G.I.P. Laboratories).

If you are willing to put in some effort to hear stuff that is quite unique, check out the custom-built-out-of-vintage parts speakers at Deja Vu Audio in McLean Virginia, or at the satellite stores (Deja Vu South-Southern Florida, or Deja Vu West-La Jolla, Ca.).