Ok perhaps I don't get it. You have hot, neutral, ground and connectors. I am looking for advise from those that have found the secret sauce in making power cables or at least those that have had great success. With all the quality cable and connectors why not make your own? I refuse to pay $2,000 plus for a power cable that would take a hour to build. I am seeking your guidance and suggestions. Thanks!
For those that poopoo on wire. I posted this on asylum a few weeks back. I was once in your camp too...
Also my shop HIFI Buys loaned me AudioQuest Hurricane power cocrds to try. I poopoo'd these of course. It's wire, it's power wire. Hooked 2 up to the Mac 601 monos, Well crap.... ok so maybe it's me. I sat the wife down who really did not want too. She said Alan had found another sucker. She and I both heard a level of grudge removed that is very real. Small but sweet. I really did not want my Amex near these but even she said go ahead lol. Interesting that the test on the AR Ref6 was kinda a no go. I think it's better but not for the money, the amps a no brainer. Who would have thought, it's wire....
You are just adding one more, unnecessary, connection point to the chain. Spades can come loose or break.
I completely agree with you here. It is one more connection and one more type of material for the signal/electricity to travel through. They are also bad for speaker cables, though, and for the same reasons. (in theory).
Todd - they are in the process of re-sourcing that gauge wire.
However - they do have some stocks left of the previous wire, but in order to purchase it you have to send them an email and they will setup a manual order
Here is the email they sent to me...
Hi Stephen,
We are replacing this wire with 10
awg product that is of the same Mil Spec as the rest of our Mil Spec wires so
although we do have stock we have removed it from our site. If you would like
to order some Lyn can put through an offline order for you. We have 250 ft of
each colour in stock cryo treated.
Alas, I do not know what that manual process involves - sorry
Try emailing them at - sales @ takefiveaudio.com - I had to put the spaces each side of the @ in the address to prevent this interface from removing it
Unless I'm missing something, TFA doesn't seem to have 10 awg Mil Spec silver plated copper cryo treated (I'm finding the others in that category under the Belden name). Have you ordered that from the recently by chance? I can always email them to find out too, that's no big deal.
"
There is no logic, reason, or justifictation for not using spades on power cables and in fact use of such terminations can insure a proper connection, contact, and conduction."
You are just adding one more, unnecessary, connection point to the chain. Spades can come loose or break. Speaker cables yes, A/C power cords no, there is no need and no benefit.
Todd - the Cardas solder is as good as any I mentioned - it will perform well.
BTW: I have been using eutectic solder for the past few months and now prefer it to the silver solder because it hardens quicker, which I think makes for a better joint. The sound has not suffered at all, so it seems to work very well
Like you, I started with bulk cable. Once I tried the Helix geometry I simply "re-purposed" the wires from my Furutech and DH Labs cables as the Live conductors in my Helix Cables - and they worked extremely well But it did seem almost "criminal" to cut away all that insulation AND the braided screen from the Furutech bulk cable.
FYI - the helix neutral and ground wires do provide a very effective screen for the live wire, protecting it from EMI/RFI and limiting the EMI/RFI from the live wire also.
So when you decide to make Helix cable - re-use the wires inside the bulk cable you purchased
Thank you! I visited your site last night but didn't see the Helix instructions, which answered all of my questions. Disregard my last question, you already answered it.
So I think I'm going to make the cable with the items I have onhand, as a good practice run. May not even plug it into any audio equipment at first, but since it's my first cable, choose a sacrificial lamb with an IEC connector instead :) If it runs fine for a bit, I'll move on to trying the helix as I build a parts list of the things you mentioned. I have a good set of Klein crimps from my time in audio, and I use Cardas quad-eutectic solder so I think that will be ok? Also recently got a nice soldering station so that will get some use as well.
Mainly I just need to procure some of the Sonar Quest connectors (for the price, I don't feel I need to look further, honestly), and the TFA wire, based on the equipment I need to cable.
Thank you again, and congrats on all your hard work! Todd
There is no logic, reason, or justifictation for not using spades on power cables and in fact use of such terminations can insure a proper connection, contact, and conduction.
Just any old spade connector work? Obviously correct for the gauge of wire I'm using, but since I'm using high quality wire and connectors, I don't necessarily want to throw $.01 spade connectors inside :)
The spades above do not degrade the performance of the cable as long as good wire and good connectors are used - their electrical path is far too small to make a significant difference
I am not saying the Sonar Quest are better than the Furutech or Oyaide connectors, but they are very good and cost much less. They have a thick coating of very pure silver so they will not tarnish quickly or wear through to the solid copper pins under normal use.
I have been developing power cables for a few years and started with Furutech and DH labs bulk cable, but quickly found using a better cable geometry outperforms them by a significant margin.
I have tried bare wire joints, soldered wire, crimped spades and crimped + soldered spades and found the last of those methods provided the best performance. Others may have found differently.
I would invest in good crimping pliers - like those on my web site below - they make a huge difference to the finished joint and require less solder
I like eutectic solder or 4% WBT solder. BUT - do not use just any old solder because it will degrade the sound.
At first glance it may appear complex, but it is actually quite simple if you follow the technique in the link and it will provide performance that few other cables can compete with. Once person that tried them promptly replaced all of his Nordost cables
I can also highly recommend the speaker and interconnect cables on my site - I have compared them to TOTL Cardas cables and the Helix sounded more complete with a huge sound stage.
If you have any other questions just ask away
Good luck with your DIY - it’s worth the effort :-)
There is no logic, reason, or justifictation for not using spades on power cables and in fact use of such terminations can insure a proper connection, contact, and conduction.
Sorry to revive this thread but you mention soldered spades for the internals of the connectors and IMO that makes a lot of sense and, frankly, would give me more piece of mind on my first DIY PC (Furutech Alpha 3 11AWG cable; furu 90 deg male end, wattgate IEC end). I'm excited to put it together but want to do it right. Question is, what are good quality spades that would fit inside those connectors?
Next update to my room will be the Furu NCF outlet, cooked preferably.
Nanotec Systems #308 wire and Furutech FI-11 connectors make a nice PC at reasonable cost. Add a few pennies worth of black heat shrink tubing to the ends for a professional look.
Nanotec Systems #308 wire and Furutech FI-11 connectors make a nice PC at reasonable cost. Add a few pennies worth of black heat shrink tubing to the ends for a professional look.
I may try your recipe for the next one. So far, I'm using a variation of a VH Audio recipe: hot and neutral in a twisted pair, surrounded by the ground wire in a counter-spiral. For shielding, that bundle is slipped inside a braided copper tube that is grounded at the pronged plug and floated from the IEC plug. These PCs are killers with Furutech FI-48 ends. For the next one I'm trying the new Oyaide AP-and AC-004 connectors. The Oyaides are more economical and look well designed.
I think that construction with symmetrical gauges and equal quality conductors on all three legs is appropriate for a balanced power configuration. With a balanced power transformer, ground is separate from neutral, and +/-60V is developed across hot-ground and neutral-ground legs, totaling 120V between hot and neutral. For that application I build a PC with a three-twist of all 10awg silver conductors built up from 20awg .999 dead soft silver strands. At current commodity pricing for silver, that’s just $275 for a 1.5m PC.
@sophie999 - apologies for the delay - been busy :-)
RE: -
Is there a huge advantage in twisting conductors around each other vs just running them next to each other?
Yes there is an advantage to twisting conductors - it actually reduces the effect of EMI/RFI - it’s called the "Proximity Effect" - look it up on the web.
You will find postings that trivialize the impact of this effect, but it is my belief it has a far greater impact on cable perofrmance than those postings makes you believe.
WRT:
@ Williewonka: So I can just use the cheap monoprice wire for the ground component next to higher quality wire for the signal component?
Correct! - but to add to that... - I believe the neutral conductor can be of lower quality than the signal/live conductor, but it should be of a heavier gauge than the signal/live conductor. - and the ground should be at least the same gauge as the signal/live conductor - there is no benefit in making the ground a larger gauge or from a higher quality material
If you think of the conductors as a garden hose ... - water in a 1/2" diameter hose has a defined pressure. - attaching a smaller hose to the 1/2" hose would increase pressure and impede water flow in the 1/2" hose - attaching a larger hose to the 1/2" hose would reduce pressure and enhance water flow in the 1/2" hose.
Due to many other factors it is not a "complete" analogy - but it gets the point across... - a larger neutral conductor is better for all cables, i.e. Speaker and IC’s as well - to keep it simple - I just make the neutral twice the gauge of the live/signal conductors
I believe there there are formulas for the ratio of Signal/Live and Neutral conductors, but for the DIYer - getting the exact gauge for the neutral may be problematic.
So - to summarize the three conductors - SIGNAL/LIVE - highest quality material possible for best results - NEUTRAL - lower quality than the signal conductor but 2x the Live - GROUND - any grade will suffice - same gauge as the Live conductor
Having said that - the quality of the neutral highlighted on my web site is actually very good and can be used for both signal/live and neutral conductors. But the finished product is just a "tad’ less responsive than the DH Labs/Furutech cables mentioned.
BTW- you may find comments elsewhere that mixing different gauge conductors in a single cable is not advisable - but during my cable journey I have not found anything to support this view
I did these and was happy with the results. You can also upgrade any component you want if it makes you feel better using an "audiophile" rated component.
@sophie999, I not sure that you are going to accomplish a better sound using the various gauges of Duelund wire, I suppose one never knows for sure unless they experiment. With that said here is what I'm currently using: Duelund tinned - copper in cotton oil impregnated wire. 16 gauge going to my top speaker terminals and 12 gauge going to my lower speaker terminals. Terminated with the KLE Bananas, and I used WBT with 4% silver solder. Twist every two inches and every foot, hold in place with a small piece of heat shrink. Color code the + and - ends with red and black heat shrink. If you want, use a carbon fiber jacket on the outside of the speaker cables to further reject interference. I've been told that the New OYAIDE TUNAMI NIGO V2 wire sounds better than the Duelund wire and I have some on order however I have not received it yet, probably another two week wait or longer.
I am building a new stereo system with tube amplifier (most likely quicksilver mid monos) and LSI 15 polk towers (capable of bi-amping) .
Wanted to see if I can make my own speaker wires to save money and get better quality. My alternative was AQ 4. Really not willing to spend any more. Need about 5-6 feet for each cable. Never have done this before, but did some reading on the subject.
After reading multiple forums, decided to focus on Dueland tin plated copper wire, which has excellent reviews for the price.
My thoughts: 1. Buy 12, 16, 20, and 26 awg wires of equal length (26 solid core, others are stranded). 2. Braid all 4 wires together. Strip all 4 wires on both ends from insulation. 3. On the amp end, connect all 4 wires to the binding posts (bare wire or through connectors, undecided yet). Amp is not capable of by-amping. 4. On the speaker side, connect 26, 20, and 16 awg wires to the upper post (high frequencies), and connect 12 awg wire to the lower post (low frequencies).
Any thoughts, comments, suggestions? Good or bad idea? Can I really screw this up and burn the amp?
If I use terminations, what brand is good? Low mass? Not looking for something very expensive as am I doing this to try to avoid paying $$$$ for brand name cables but still get better sound than my current 12 awg monoprice wire.
My primary goal, since I am not an engineer or electrician, is to not damage the expensive new equipment.
For hot and neutral use solid core silver (the larger the better) in cotton sleeve with shrink tubing on outside. Use solid core copper (one or two sizes larger than silver). Silver coated plugs from wattgate. I was a skeptic as well until I tried this recipe. After that I upgraded all my power cords, umbilical power cords and even some internal power wiring. I am not smart enough to explain what causes the equipment's sound to be impacted by that short piece of wire, but silver is the best conductor and cotton is one of the best dielectrics. I am skipping detailed descriptions about the improvements these cables made in my system so all the naysayers don't have to feel obligated to comment. If your system is good enough and you have tweaked interconnects and speaker cables as much as possible - upgrading power cables will make you shake your head in disbelief!
@leezmaze - the rhodium plated plugs are the most "affordable" I could find on eBay
I actually prefer the Sonarquest or Vanguard silver plated copper because silver plated copper has the best conductivity rating
Pure copper (not plated) have a tendency to oxidize - whereas the silver sulfide on the silver plated plugs can easily be cleaned. Having said that I am yet to clean the Sonarquest plugs I have after 3-4 years of use.
Vanguard silver plated copper are a little more affordable, but are not as well made, but I still have a set of them that are 3-4 years old and have yet to see signs of tarnish as well.
The Sonaquest IEC connectors are better because they clamp like a vice
I listed that plug because you were looking for a $10-30 power cable, so I posted the more affordable plugs. I have used plugs like these also, but they are not as good as Vanguard or Sonarquest.
There is not a lot to choose between Gold plated or Rhodium plated copper from a performance perspective - they simply do not perform as well as Silver plated copper.
Beware - some silver plated or rhodium plated plugs are brass under that plating, they pale in comparison to the silver plated copper .
In the end it all comes down to what you are prepared to spend - just giving you some options :-)
I use Sonarquest on all my power cables these days
My Braiding is simply a criss-cross affair... - Take the three conductors and attach them to the IEC plug - plug the connector into an unused component (if you have one) - or hold it in a vice - you can even wedge it in a drawer or tape it to an table top if all else fails - allow the live conductor to hang free - take the ground and neutral conductors and cross them over the top of the live conductor - then pass them to the back of the live conductor and cross them again. - bring them to the front again and cross them - repeat until finished
Each time the neutral and ground conductors cross the signal conductor - alternate the conductor position i.e.... - place the neutral next to the live conductor for one crossing and then the ground next to the live conductor for the next crossing
The braiding needs to be "reasonably tight" - about 1.5 inches between crossings
You may find the live conductor ends up being a bit longer than the ground and neutral - just trim to the same length.
I have tried a more normal braid i.e. criss-cross alternating conductors - but this method seems to work better.
Biketech60 +1 / I've made several PC's using
Oyaide Tunami cable myself & completely agree that this cable is well worth the money. Bought the cable from vhaudio.
I just used a standard 12 gauge extension cords - good for Source components and smaller amps.
The connectors actually make a significant difference
Make sure you strip the outer sleeve and braid the three conductors. If you like you can finish off with some expandable nylon sleeve - it protects the conductors and looks a little nicer
Straight 12 gauge with the sleeve intact will not yield much of an improvement (if any) over stock cables.
I’ve had very good results using Belden 19364 cable. It’s 14 awg and shielded. Fit some good connectors, and if you want to get fancy, some Techflex, and you have a pretty terrific power cord for not very much money.
The Carbon Fiber sleeves are intended to cover the entire Cable length but not the plug or connector. Select the diameter and length to suit your cable or power cord and slip it over the existing jacket. Voila! Seal both ends with electrical tape. The Carbon Fiber sleeves are highly reflective to electromagnetic waves and fields and act as RFI/EMI shields. Carbon fiber is conductive so keep that in mind when using. You certainly don’t want any dangling fibers floating around. Carbon fiber shield by reflecting rf so I doubt there could be interference. Besides the plug and connectors aren’t covered with carbon fiber. Problem solved. Carbon fiber sheets are also available for draping over equipment, providing additional shielding.
@geoffkait - I frequently use the nylon "expandable" sleeve of different types because of its insulation properties
Some questions in my mind... - does Carbon fibre sleeve conduct electricity ? - if so it could be dangerous on mains leads if it touched a live conductor inside the plug? - If used on speaker cables or IC's would it cause interference (RFI/EMI, eddy currents etc.) in the actual conductors? - also, I think the debate is ongoing as to whether braided shielding is a good or bad thing on cables - would carbon fiber have a similar effect?
Can you "seal" the cut end (as with nylon) to stop it from unraveling?
I haven't tried it in any cable applications to date so I cannot confirm either way.
I know a person in the cables/connector business that believes the use of carbon fibre, particularly on RCA plug housings may "interfere" with the other properties of the RCA if it is not designed properly - he has 30+++ years experience so I trust his opinion.
But - if you are smart enough to incorporate it into your cable's design/properties it might it might be advantageous?
Not much help I'm afraid
But I don't think I will be using it any time soon.
That makes perfect sense! This is why I came here...if one is in the cable making (mindset), they'll have an easy way of doing things. Hopefully, I too, can be of said mindset soon.
1. completely remove a piece of the cable's outer jacket, such that you can insert the wires comfortably into the assembled plug 2. cut a piece of heat-shrink that is long enough to cover the exposed wires into the plug, in addition to about one inch of the outer jacket
That way the wires have some protection If you can manage two pieces of heat-shrink even better
I think that would be my preference
It may make the whole process a little easier and perhaps result in a nicer finish.
Thanks for that overview! I’ve been reading the DIY cable threads and followed yours somewhat and meant to respond prior.
A little while back I had an itch to try building my own power cable (just for kicks) to replace my Shunyata Python Helix that powers a Hydra. I also may try it on my SMc Audio amp on which I'm currently running a Grover ZX. I already had two Furutech connectors in house. I saw some Furutech cable on sale at Cable Co. and bought a meter of FP-S55N Alpha-OFC.
My initial question is... the cable (outlet) side of these connectors are slightly smaller compared to the cable’s out jacket. Does one just trim down the outer jacket to fit. (Sounds like a stupid question, but an answer from you would make me feel better). More questions to come.
Sorry I’m late to the game - Thanks for the mention(s) guys :-)
Here is a brief history of some things I have tried...
Started with Bulk Furutech FP-3TS762 (10 awg) and FP-314Ag-II (14 awg) cables and Vanguard IEC/mains connectors - these were better than stock power cables
Next - tried DH Labs Power Plus(12 awg) and Encore (14 awg) cables with Vanguard IEC/mains connectors - these were really very close to the performance level of the Furutech cables, but much more affordable
Next - I stripped the wires from a piece of Home Depot 12 gauge extension cord and braided them - attached Vanguard IEC/mains connectors - SURPRISE! - they outperformed both of the above cables
Next - I stripped the wires from the DH Labs and braided them, attached the Vanguard IEC/mains connectors - these outperformed all of the above cables
I use a single wire for the live conductor from either DH Labs or Furutech cables, but a different bulk wire for the ground and neutral conductors - (see my web site).
I use the heavier gauge DH Labs/Furutech conductors for the power components and extension cables and the lighter gauge DH Labs/Furutech conductors for source components.
I promote crimping and soldering spades onto ALL wires because I have found they provide better performance and it adds to the safety aspect of the design. i.e. they will not pull out of the connectors
So - Furutech or DH Labs ? - I now use DH Labs because there is very little between them when used in the helix design - I even have one PC that uses the same wire used for the ground and neutral conductors - i.e. stranded Mil Spec 12 AWG Silver Plated Copper Wire, Cryo Treated and it sounds very close to the named brands
Why Sonar Quest IEC/Mains Connectors? - they are very well made solid copper with a very heavy silver coating - yet to wear off after dozens of insertions - the pins of the mains plug are very flat - and provide a great connection - the IEC connectors clamp like a vice - I first plug them into my guitar amp to loosen them a little
What improvements were observed?
I have found that source components show a greater improvement, I suspect because their power supplies are not as "able" as those generally found in power amps.
However, the improvements in my amp - a NAIM 5i MKII integrated amp - was less noticeable at first, but some subtle improvements observed applied more to the fine details of venue acoustics, hall reverberations and imaging.
Other system components: Bluesound Node 2 and Simaudio MOON LP5.3 RS phono stage
Dynamic performance, clarity and imaging are probably the most noticeable improvements across all components
The cables/conductors/connectors on the web site is only one option, so try others brands if you already have some power cables lying around.
Feedback from others that have tried them is very favorable
I have tried some commercial products up to $1500 - they have since all been returned or sold on.
I have had great success making power cords . On eBay I found a vendor selling Oyaide Black Mamba V2 ( 12 gauge ) and Tunami V2 ( 10 gauge ) cables by the meter . The copper used is their 102SSC , the highest purity copper commercially available . It is copper foil shielded with a drain wire which you connect to the ground lug of the input plug . Google Oyaide 102SSC for the full story .
The Neotech connectors I used are no longer at the vendor I found , but any brand with gold plated copper conductors ( not brass ) at the lowest price you can find will do .
Commonly used brass has only 16% the conductivity of copper . A good search might read " copper US mains plugs " on eBay . Most connectors will handle the 12 gauge wires, but check closely if you go with the heavier 10 gauge wire as not all take that size . This 102SSC wire has slightly smaller outside diameter than all others due to their unique stranding and will fit more easily into connectors . YMMV
You will want to make the IEC end FIRST, since on the other end you cross the insulated wire to maintain correct polarity ( between hot and return ) and there is more room to do this at the power plug connector than at the IEC plug . Learned the hard way ! Work carefully and insure there is not one loose strand of wire shorting to another ! Get help if you need it .
So for about $650 I made myself 4 power cords, none longer than 3 feet , better than I had any right to have and probably better than many very pricey commercial power cords . The improvement in sound quality , and especially quietness and impact were unreal .
I have no financial connection to any brand mentioned , I'm only a 70 year old audiophile with military electronics training .
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