Best Capacitors for Crossovers
I am now in the tweaking stage of trying different caps in my crossovers for my DIY homemade 2 way. I presently have and will soon try a 5.6uf 800 vdc +/- 2% Jantzen Audio Silver Z-cap.
I see that Mundorf, V Cap get a lot of accolades, and the Dueland are quite pricey.
Does anyone have a favorite?
I am trying to cross over at about 4500HZ at 6db.
Coils make a big difference in my limited experience. I added a pair of Fostex super tweeters to my system and was using Goertz Audio Foil Inductors (http://www.bridgeportmagnetics.com/contents/en-us/d68_Foil_Inductors.html) and my super tweeters had some glare to them. A friend suggested I use Jantzen Audio Wax Coils (http://www.jantzen-audio.com/wax-coil/) and the glare disappeared. I am using a Mundorf Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil caps. |
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Ozzy, what value cap do you need for that spot? The value can be different for a given frequency depending on impedance and type of crossover slope. The Mundorf S/G/O subjective tonal balance is a bit skewed with slightly bright highs and slightly lean bass, so I understand your desire for stronger bass. And the tweeter crossover components can have a significant effect on the bass considerably below the crossover frequency. I am not sure why, but that's been my experience a number of times. |
I have devoted 1,000s of hours running in and listening to capacitors from all over the world most recently several are from very good to Excellent the new Clarity Copper S.A. cap gets my nod for best balanced capacitor at a very reasonable price. For money's not that much more then Solen these are very well balanced with a slightly warm character. Next would be the Obbiggato Gold cap slightly warmer still a bit on The rich side very close to a Mundorf Supreme for less money. The Big shock to this final cap was a total shocker. Sizes only .33uf To 3.3. The Fostex, caps from Japan they are Copper foil, as well As Tin foil. Using their own formula dielectric. In my new Martin Logan 11--A they will let you know exactly what is not right I replaced stock with Clarity Csa and Mundorf Supreme 4.7,and 5.6 Caps put .33 fostex, on them, had Mundorf Silver oil bypass, I only put the 3.3 on low voltage in my DHT preamp. I know 2 others who use these. The are exceptional ,very natural With tons of air around the instruments Bass noticeably better then Any Mundorf. I think these are magical with the clarity and or Mundorf Supreme I recommend 10% or better with the Fostex, They can go toe to to with any cap the Duelund Cast is the Only Cap I have found that us slightly better. I have heard these in several settings,and now my own preamp And Loudspeakers the engineers from what I was told spent 2 years on these the combination of Copper and specific amount of Tin foil totally hit a home run . No more expensive then a good Mundorf cap. It proved to me sometimes looking at a well kniwn name ,known for their Drivers was worth checking out. It is too bad they are limited in sizes .madisound seems to be the only sourse. |
I have a pair of DIY loudspeakers with Dynaudio drivers. They were built
in mid 80's. Recently my tweeter got fried and I finally managed to get
a replacement. However, I think it would be good time to replace the
capacitors. These boxes were custom built by a guy who is unfortunately
no longer with us. I took out the crossover from one of the boxes, but I
have hard time determining the values of two capacitors. I'm no
electronic wiz, so if the value is not specifically stated in μF, I am
not sure what they are. The only thing on one of them is: MKT 1.60 10 K 160V- It's a bigger thing, inch x inch x half an inch. I'd really appreciate any help. |
When rebuilding my Dynaudio S25,s I posted this question on DIY forum and Eric recommended I try the Murdoff MPK,s , I took his advice for the mids and for the tweeters I used the VCap TFTF and CUTFs along with replacing the sand resistors with Mills with great success. Thank you Eric for the recommendation. |
thewatcher101, Well at this point I feel I am a seasoned DIY selfer when it comes to crossovers. I installed exterior crossover boxes complete with spiked feet in order to experiment. Having the crossovers out of the speaker cabinets may also help sound quality by eliminating vibrations. I used the dual banana’s on the back of the speaker to connect a short bi-wire banana lead to the external crossovers. Of course this implies that you must first bypass the internal crossovers. After trying several brands I settled on Mundorf silver, gold, oil. Perhaps a little expensive but great depth and soundstage. Also pay attention to the coils and the wires used in the crossovers. Everything matters... P.S. I would like to try the high end Dueland caps but they are way to big for even my large external crossover boxes. ozzy |
TW, It sounds like your only playing with one capacitor ? If so you should try to charge couple the capacitor - basically for a 10uF cap you will need two 20uF capacitors, Just uses the Dayton ones they come in 20uF put the two in series and install as the 10Uf cap, to the midpoint attach a 1M Ohm resistor - then use a 9V battery install between the crossovers negative post and the 1M Ohm resistor - you'll be surprised ? You can google for more information Best of Luck Peter |
I've been rolling capacitors too and want some help, I got a handful of capacitors at 10uf from parts express. My speakers are ADS L620 two way with a 10 driver. Audyn Caps - Very rounded sound, the brightness is turned down, but still very good, very musical overall. Because they are so well rounded it, it did not go well with my sub. The dynamic range is not as aggressive as other set up. If I did not run a sub these would be the first pick. Jensen - Sounds very similar to stock caps, in retaining the sound profile of the speakers, the highs are crisp and clean. Very lively sounding, very good imaging. This along the sub, sounds amazing. Dayton - good caps too, retain speaker profile, the bottom is tighter or just more rolled off, seems like they would be great with a subwoofer. Similar to Audyn, but not as warm, it is a much flatter sounding. Lacks imaging and soundstage. Bass is tight and fast. Tonal qualities are poor. Solen - good tonal characteristics, highs are clean, really great mids, has a very transparent feel to them. They have a really nice sweet spot, that just draws your attention with pieces that stay in that spot. Bass is quick and punchy, but not much extension. Nothing particularly stand out then the overall smoothness. Integrate with the sub very well. So after that, I stuck with Jensen because they were the cleanest sounding caps, but I think I might like to roll capacitors more than tubes. The Jensen after extended listening images very well, but I think I developed listening fatigue at higher sound levels and long sessions. I think I attribute to the listening fatigue to the high level of seperation and brightness. I think I want something a bit smoother across frequency and retain realism. I am tempted to rig my speakers where I can switch caps. Would drilling a small hole in the back of my speaker and leading wires out for cap switching be okay? |
I forgot to mention runin time for cheap caps like standard Solen 50- 75 hours for good Clarity caps they they reach about 80% runin around 100 hours, 200+ to get close to full refinement . Mundorf ,Jupiter,Duelund 3-400 hours sometimes longer. There are several factors ,the bigger higher voltages take longer ,s well as the higher the uF - micro fared longer . and at what SPL volume all 3 factors come into play . You can cut this in 1/2 by using a top breakin cd . I like the Isotek breakin cd , which has on track-3 a 5 minute tune up you can use everyday or once a week. Purest Audio has a good one ,as well as Ayre. These all work even at lower volume and are great for electronics also. Contact enhancer the best and endorsed by NASA ,is Stabilant-22 ,or straight . I use plain Stabilant last for years and without question a liquid super conductor in a sense ,and can be effective of past 10 years per applications .i clean tube pins and connections with 99% Isopropyl Alcohol first. then apply thin coat, give it 30 minutes then use tubes for sure sound better good to over 400 degrees good for any tube. I use on AC even though they don't endorse this .it keeps my Copper contacts from Oxydizing ,as well as enhance conductivity. It is a solid tip including Digital contacts ,will not ark or short like these Nightmare Silver pastes ,and no residue like pro Gold, or contac. te Best out there Period, don't comment what sumiko, used to sell it was cut 10-1. Stabilant 22 is 4-1 with Alcohol . I use it straight up you need very little . $50 for a small bottle I sprung for the $120 you get 3 x the amount .tip of the day. |
I just bought the New Martin Logan 11-A speakers with dual 24 but active bass per speaker. It has one major crossover at 300 hz then free range to 23k it only has 3 caps a Big 33uf Solen,for the Bass,and two smaller Poly cap. I got rid of all 3 and I tried a few combinations the Mundorf Supreme and Clarity Csa- together bypassed by Mundorf Silver oil ,for Big 33uf cap Clarity Csa- which is 2x the diameter of the Solen. I can tell you for $ 300 retail these caps complement the stat panel very good since this crossover integrate the 2 smaller caps they complement each other it sounds very good space is maxed out .in its separate chamber the Mundorf Silver oil .22uf caps are very good at giving a bit added depth and air. Image depth on these stats with this latest generation speaker is excellent,and with the 24 bit Active crossover ,and bass room correction seamless integration and no bass nulls in the rom area. The other parts of the crossover was spot on Jantzen Copper inductors,and 1% resistors connected to a big metal heat sink. having modded equipment,and speakers since 2000 no capacitor is ideal in every situation .Mundorf some may not like their sonic ,but many do ,and in my situation mixed with the Clarity and Silver oil a very good and cost effective Solid combination as good as other single caps at up to 3 x the cost. If anyone in New England-Ma area wants to hear this setup drop me a line .As a Audiophile I Like the fellowship. |
You can buy directly from Chris at the Jupiter website and he is a great guy. Here is the link. He is very helpful and answers the phone. http://jupitercondenser.com You can can also buy them at Sonic Craft. They usually offer 20% off and ship quickly. Here is a link to the VT caps. The HT caps are also very special. http://www.soniccraft.com/index.php/jupiter-vt-c-301_38_446 |
Hello Everyone! I was thinking on trying the Audyn Plus caps and also bypassing them with a .1uF Audyn copper foil cap. Do any of you think this would be a good match? I just can’t afford really expensive caps at the moment :( I did look at the Jupiter caps and they are a little pricey for me at this time. Has anyone here ever tried different coils such as the silver/gold foil caps from Mundorf? In my opinion it appears that caps do make a difference in the tweeter section, I wonder if the high end coils also make a noticeable difference in sound quality in the mid-bass/midrange area? I was also told that one couldn't notice a difference using caps in the shunt sections of a crossover. I know that you guys here would know, so what do y'all believe. Thanks in advanced! John |
Hi Ozzy, You should take these questions over to the DIYAudio forum where there are lots of speaker builders who would help you, or Parts Express Tech Talk. Plus you can post pics and schematics and stuff there too so it's easier to share your problems and questions about speaker buiding. :) As for power required for a resistor, I use XSim’s power charts. It is also important to know where your resistor is going! :) Since power in music is weighted towards bass, your tweeter will never have the full music power. I assume only about 1/10 of the music power will ever go to the tweeter section. I then set XSim to that level of power, and then examine the resistors. If in doubt, go bigger! :) Plus, bigger resistors have less thermal noise and are more stable. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/ Best, Erik |
barrysandy, Thanks for reviving this thread. Those Duelund caps are verrrryyy pricey! I ended up installing Mundorf silver/gold/oil caps. And I switched to the Aurtum Cantus G1 tweeters. There is about a 14 db.SPL difference between this tweeter and the mid/woofers I am using. So, now my quest is to install resistors to pad down the tweeter. I will use a 6.2 and a 2 ohm resistors that are rated at 10 watt. Question: Most high end resistors are rated between 5-12 watts. This seems rather low to me, is that enough wattage? |
I like the Duelund Cast caps for speaker crossovers and use them on the tweeter / midrange panels of my Magnepan 3.6s. They sound amazingly clear and natural. They're almost as good as a Pass Labs 3 way active crossover used on the bass panels and subs. When you consider the benefits of extra amp power and direct drive of the latter, that's saying something. I'm glad I bought them years ago, as now they require a third mortgage! I recently added the Duelund silver foil wax and Oil .01uF bypasses to the tweeters. I'm not a big fan of silver. Much more subtle changes, but ok, so I'm going to leave them in. |
Eric, I can't open your sample files. The woofer I'm using is 90db and crossing over at 4500hz seems to be quite fine. Perhaps the tweeter is a little too much but with my "old" ears sounds pretty good to me. Even at this early stage of breakin my DIY 2-way sounds better than many of my other high priced speakers including B&W's. I tried to limit the amount of components in the crossover networks. As I stated earlier I made the crossover in a external box. They were made bi-wired, with separate wbt posts . For the woofer, I used military spec cryoed 12 gauge silver/copper wire. The inductor is also 12 gauge. With the tweeters I used 14 gauge pure .9999 silver wire internally and the Jantzan Silver 5.6uf Cap. I just ordered a DEQX Premate, with my JL Audio F-113 subs this ought to turn into something really special. |
Ozzy, Here is a link to the LM-1 speaker kit. This particular page discusses the crossover, and how the tweeter level is set. http://speakermakersjourney.blogspot.com/2016/05/lm-1-bookshelf-crossover.html Best, Erik |
Hi Ozzy, Yes, resistors in the tweeter section are usually to pad down the level. Tweeters tend to be very sensitive, around 98 dB for instance at 2.83V, while woofers, when all is said and done, may be around 87 dB for a small diameter woofer. So that's 11 dB difference. It's close to 10x the power needed in the woofer than the tweeter. I just posted sample files for my own DIY kit. It includes simulation files so you can play with the design and see how each part contributes to the sound. Best, Erik |
I have tried the Solens and they are ok but they seem to compress the dynamics. Really? I found the opposite, with all of them, when used in my ESL xovers, and even in my Plasma tweeter xovers, especially I found the SILVER METALLIZED POLYPROPYLENE to be vey good, but everything has to be perfect to handle these babies, because they’re so fast and clean. Which ones did you try?, as there are quite a few models (8 I believe) that can do the job inside a speaker xover. Cheers George |
georgelofi, I have tried the Solens and they are ok but they seem to compress the dynamics. The caps I am using have silver leads and silver wiring eric, I do like to play the Pass Labs amp pretty loud sometimes. I'm crossing over the tweeters at 4500hz. There frequency rating is 1700-20000+hz, 6 ohm and have a 30 watts rms rating .I have not added any resistors. First off, I am not sure what they contribute. Can someone explain? Is it for equalizing the levels between the tweeter and woofer? I have been using the Purist break in disc quite a bit and I do believe the brightness is toning down. |
Ozzy, it’s really rare an audiophile blows a tweeter, unless you use a very low order filter and it’s too low an F. In additon to the filter, there's usually resistors padding them down, so you have to work kind of hard to blow them. Leave extraneous things like that out unless you are making a party/pa speaker. Best, Erik |
Best bang for buck Ozzy is the Solens. I was told by someone in the know that a few of the "boutique" branded caps are just re-badged Solens. http://solen.ca/product-category/capacitors/ Cheers George |
Just a little more info. I put the speaker crossover's in wooden boxes and made them external to the speakers. Seems like all speakers should come this way. Especially for tweakers (Like me). Also, has anyone tried the speaker breaker from Parts express to protect tweeters? Now, I wired the tweeters using ultra pure .9999 silver wire, so I am reluctant to add a breaker with its crappy wire to the connection. |
Ozzy, I am using an active xo, and while I hesitated for a long while because of the digital processing involved, which rang so much as heressy within my preconceived notions, I am not going back. I'm still learning and perfecting the implementation - still haven't time-aligned my 4-way - yet it still sounds so much better. And in my case the setup is cheaper than the 2-channel I was running before. DEQX, from what I read, is an excellent unit. If your only source is digital, then there are cheaper options that are more involved but also more flexible. |
enliten, Active crossover is an idea. I was thinking of eventually getting a DEQX unit. ptss, I read the attachment lustformusic added. I'm not sure I totally understand the concept. I need to read it again. I am getting very good soundstage wide separation along with a pretty deep presentation. The upper frequencies are definitely pronounced at this point however. grannyring, I may try some of that wire. |
For wire I highly recommend a brand new affordable wire made by Duelund that copies and betters the wonderful NOS Western Electric copper stranded wire. Parts Connextion sells it for $10 a meter and it is very special. I have wired my complete system with the Western Electric NOS wire popularized by Jeff Day. This wire has caused many of us to sell of thousands of dollars worth of Aphile cable for better sound with the WE16 NOS cable. Well, the NOS WE16 wire is now gone and sold up! But Duelund has made a match that according to Jeff Day that is even a tad bit better. Forget all all you may have heard about stranded or tinned wire and buy some. I had to empty my brain of past experiences and reading on tinned and stranded wire, but when I opened my mind and heard this stuff I was taken back. So open and musical. You have to hear yourself to know. Check it out. |
