Capacitors for BAT VK-60

Dam, if you'll tell us what you don't you like about the Jensens, probably we can advise you more appropriately.

FWIW, I think you ought to set your quality goal higher than those of the caps you mentioned.
.

I'd try a pair of the russian teflon .1uf caps in parallel for each of the Jensens. The russian teflons are a bargain ($5/ea) and exceedingly well made, likely better than any of the other (way overpriced) current commercial teflon caps.

the jensen copper foil in the vk60 are really not a bad cap overall, I'd rate them above the multicap and auricap probably, or at the very least on par with them.

-Ed

I'd look into the V-cap.

John

Yes I agree,the Jensens are not bad overall,of course I like their detail,analysis and bass too but......
IMHO they are not so warm as they should be or better as I prefer. So I think I need more emotion and a bit more warmness for my VK-60...
What about Dynamicaps?
Mr. Mike Elliot prefers them than any other cap.

V-cap ? Expensive stuff John...
A kind of risky I think.

Risky how? Because of the price? Certainly not because of the quality. VH Audio sells some very high quality product.

You can always find cheaper stuff, be it caps, resistors, amps, etc.
I just mentioned the best because you didn't have a price limit in your initial thread. I thought you might be interested in SOTA caps....maybe not.

John

John,I think you missed the point...
I'm not trying to spend a lot of money just for two caps!
I prefer to spend some for a VK-75 than more for a pair of V-Caps!!!
That's what I call logic!
Out of that, I don't trust teflon or tin foil caps but only in parallel.But that's another story...
BTW my first choice is TRT Dynamicaps with a pair of teflon caps(.1mf) in parallel as Ed mentioned before.

SOTA caps...? My Wilson WITTs will hate you if you'll say that again!!!
I'm just joking John.

Obviously I did miss the point, sorry. I didn't see any financial limitations in your original post. I just saw the 'Any suggestions?'.

It would probably help next time if you post your price constraints right up front, it makes it easier for recommendations. We all don't just 'know' your budget.

Best wishes,

John

Dam, you want WARMER-sounding caps than the Jensens? I think they don't exist. Certainly nothing you or anyone else has mentioned will sound warmer than the Jensen PIO/CFs.

Why do you want so much color from your preamp? If your system sounds thin, replace the speakers or use an equalizer; you surely won't get 'warmer' by replacing the caps.
.

John,it's obviously that you are still missing the point,I'm so sorry...
You don't have to wait for instructions to tell someone an opinion, so you better use logic!
And please, say "I" and don't say "WE" because I guess you are just a person and not a representative of other people or companies...
Are you...?
Thanks for your support anyway.

Jef, yes I'm looking for warmer-sounding caps than Jensens.
I know the Jensens very well from the past!
A few units of mine from the past was Audio Note M2 Sgn, Dac2, Soro Sgn, BAT VK-D5, VK-3, VK-500...etc
The same everywhere,sweet sound with great analysis, great highs,great bass and fast too!
But I want something warmer from my power amp.
With more emotion too...
The sound became thin only because of VK-60 and not because of Wilson WITT or CAT SL1 Ultimate which is my preamp.
Perhaps I'll try some nos 6SN7 tubes too, as I read in an other thread.

I have experimented with the Jensen copper foil oil caps and did not find them warm at all. I"ll share a neat trick to warm up the sound of most any cap. On the output lead of the capacitor, solder on a 1" pigtail of Kimber varistrand copper wire. So, at the circuit board connection and the capacitor lead out wire is were you make your solder connections.

Damaradona, I see that you are new here and this is your first thread. Welcome to AudiogoN.

I say 'we' because 'we' are the AudiogoN members who generally respond to threads posted on AudiogoN. Most of us 'regulars' refer to ourselves as 'we' when asking for clarifying information. Search the archives, you'll see.
In the future, if you wish your point to be more clearly understood, you need to set some parameters. No where in your original post was there any mention of price range or what color sound you were looking for. Later in the thread it became apparent that you are looking for warmer, less expensive caps. Please don't get upset at me because your original post was vague.

As for additional comments, I agree with Jefferybehr, you should be looking in other directions for warmer sound, not the caps. Try the tube-rolling or different cables and/or power cords. If all of this fails, try an equalizer or start replacing gear. I've heard the BAT and the CAT, I don't think they are the offending problem though.

Cheers,
John

I tried a few brands like Cardas cables and p-cords which are warm-sounding but the difference was not so important.
So, I'll try a few tubes first, now I'm using some TELAM 6N8S I think...

I will repeat,thanks for your support John.

Damaradona - If you felt that the Cardas cables and power cords didn't make enough difference, I am not sure capacitors will either. I think you need to try different amps instead. This will give you the big change that you seek, especially since you say the sound wasn't thin until you got the VK-60. Just my 2 cents based on what you have said so far. Changing tubes can have a big impact but it won't be as much change as, say, a McIntosh or VAC tube amp would bring.

Arthur

Thanks Reb.

Arthur, perhaps you're right...Perhaps it won't be...
But a new replacement...?
Jesus, not again...

Try changing the V1 6SN7 first, that should have the most sonic effect of anything mentioned in this thread yet so far.

-Ed

Perhaps V-Cap TFTF will make as big an improvement in your VK-60 as they did in my VK75E.

If you're willing to spend a bit more on a cap, the V-cap OIMP(oil impregnated metallized polypropylene) cap has the liquid warmth you are seeking. They are also less expensive than the V-cap TFTF, especially if you need a larger value. Either of these versions of the V-cap will be sonically superior to the Jensen that you mentioned.

Ever think about replacing the amp with a really good one?

I'll second the TFTF V-Caps suggestions if you can stretch your budget. They are IMHO the very best money can buy.

Dynamicaps are quite good too though. As their name suggests, they have a very dynamical quality. The sound is almost sparkly and very alive; I find that the sound seem to leap out the speakers. I used Dynamicaps as couplers exclusively until I came across the TFTF V-Caps.

Note, I would use a Dynamicap rather than a OIMP V-Cap. I don't really care for Auricaps – I have used them once and will not use them again.

I would suggest you do a pair at a time and have a listen.

Regards
Paul

Paul,

What don't you like about V-Cap OIMP? I have been considering these with small TFTF bypass for some large values in my speaker xover (to replace Hovland Musicap.)

Regards,
Dave

Dynamicap's life is missing from my VK-60...

Also what brand (6SN7) could be a good choice for there ?

Thanks to all of you for helping me.
D

I used Dynamicaps in my preamp in place of REL caps. Very nice improvement. About 100 hours break in time.

P.S
Damaradona - Diego Armando Maradona?

You mean the "Hand of God", right?
Yes, it is correct!

yes, the hand of god goal, 1986

I have the V-caps on order.
Next week I should have time to install them in my VK-75.

Tim

How does V-cap compare to Auricap, Havland, and Mundorf caps? I have a ASL 300B SET amp that I want to upgrade its coupling caps.

Dgarretson, I do not dislike OIMPs, I simply prefer Dynamicaps. However I am considering using OIMPs bypassed with a smaller TFTF in my phono. (The output couplers are 8.0uF)

Vett93, I am not familiar with Mundorf, but to my ears Dynamicaps sounded better than both Hovland and Auricaps. TFTF V-Caps blows Dynamicaps out the water - no contest. I believe the M-cap silver/oil is pretty good but I doubt if they will be anything like the TFTFs. TFTFs are the bomb.

If you can afford TFTF V-Caps it's a no brainer.

Regards
Paul

Look on the V-Cap site and you will find what you are looking for.

Tim

Pauly,
Have you had an opportunity to evaluate the Sonicap Platinums? I would be curious to see how they compare to both the Dynamicap and V-cap TFTF in coupling locations.

Thanks, Paul. My amp only needs 1 pair of coupling caps. So I can afford v-caps! :-)

Can you describe the sound from various brands of coupling caps? A friend of mine prefers Auricaps and Hovland over Dynamicaps. So I'd like to ask people for their descriptions.

Thanks!!

I just replaced Hovlands Musicaps with Mundorf Silver/Gold in a line-stage and am impressed with the improvement. The Mundorfs are more detailed & refined in treble & suppler with a more expansive soundstage.

Vet93, Dynamicaps are as their name suggests, very dynamic. I would describe the sound as crystalline clear and sparkly. The sound seems to leap from the speaker. They also seemed to cure my system of sibilance, yet increase detail many many fold.

V-Caps beat Dynamicaps on all of the above hands down, but do everything else so very well that the above is not immediately noticeable. I am not very familiar with V-Caps (yet), so I share my most recent experience with them.

I replaced one out of four coupling caps in my phono. I always do one stereo pair at a time and audition at length before doing the next. The results were (are) astonishing. The soundstage has become totally huge (it wasn't bad before, but a lot smaller and static). Not only is it big, but also it seems to be alive; growing and shrinking and moving around as different instruments/vocals chime in.

I have a friend staying over, and he was looking around for the surround speakers. And I don’t mean the tired old knee-jerk 'I heard a sound behind me' BS; it was like the band was live on a stage right in front of us and we could 'see' them moving around onstage. He kept on asking me how I get the sound to do that. Personally I have never heard a system with such an 'alive' soundstage anywhere, ever.

I can go on, but I think you get the picture ;-). I will most certainly be replacing each and every coupling cap in my system with TFTF V-Caps.

I cannot comment on Auricap or Hovland sound, other than I did try them and did not think much of them. I also tried Jupiters and did not like them much either.

Regards
Paul

Damarado, I just saw a post where you mention you want to use a Dynamicaps and bypass it with another. My experience is that Dynamicaps sound best on their own, not bypassed. You could try bypassing a big(ish) Dynamicap, lets say 2uF with another Dynamicap of 0.01uF. I wouldn’t mix caps when using dynamicaps.

Also, if you want a slightly warmer sound with loads of detail, consider replacing your signal path resister with AN tantalums. I found that dynamcaps + tantalums gave a very detailed sound with a hint of warmth. A match made in heaven?

Use higher wattage than is required i.e. substitute a 2-watt Tant for a 1-watt resistor, and do a stereo pair at a time. You can warm up your sound incrementally till you hit the spot.

Lastly, I would hold of on tube rolling till you do the caps. You may find the exotic > $180 6sn7s are really not needed after you ‘rolled’ some caps.

Regards
Paul

Paul, yes I did.About bypassing.
Many “upgrade” guys are using Polypro or Metallised Polypro caps and bypassing them with TFT or Polysterine caps, that’s why I mentioned that.
But I think I can try to bypass a Dynamic with another Dynamic, it’s easy.

About Tants, I’m not really sure…
I got a few of them but I believe Kiwame are smoother and warmer than Tants. With wider soundstage too.
Anyway, I got them both so I can compare them once again.
I hope it’s worth it…

I installed the V-caps in my VK-75 on Monday.

After everything runs for a few days,I'll report back.

Tim

Tim, what values of V-cap and what locations in your amp?

Sherod,
Going on what Dgarretson advised.

Viewed through the side or bottom cover, you’ll see four 2”L x 3/4”W yellow/green caps across the PCB beneath the 6C33C tubes. The caps are marked Balance Audio Technology ..22uf/630V. They can be desoldered without removing the main PCB, and replaced with four V-Cap TFTF .22uf/600V. When installing the V-Caps, face the red lead to the rear of the chassis and the green lead to the front. Put a piece of Radio Shack double-sided cushioning tape between each cap & the PB.



Allow at least 100 hours before critical judgment and 400 hrs for full break-in. But I think even cold out of the box these teflon caps surpass the stock paper-in-oil BAT/Jensen caps. This upgrade simply transforms the amp, particularly in terms of improved bass control & dynamics & elimination of sluggishness. The caps sound continuous, detailed, airy, very real & very musical. No down-side whatsoever once they’re broken in.

Flemke - You installed the V-caps on 4/30. On 5/3 you report back saying that there is "no downside whatsoever once they are broken in" and that they need 400 hours to break in. Is that comment based on your experience? How did you get 400 hours on them so fast?

Rgurney,

As Flemke mentioned, those are my comments, reflecting V-Caps at 160 hrs in a VK75SE.

Who's amp is in my basement? It looks like my VK-75, but sounds about 3 levels up in performance. I have about 50 hours run time on the V-Caps. If you own a VK amp like the 75, I would strongly suggest doing this 30 minute swap-out. Go read all the comments on the V-Cap web page. They are all true. Sorry I don't go into details, it's all been said on the TFTF site.

Tim

Ed Sawyer,

I have tube rolled some very nice old stock 6sn7's.
None of the changes were even in the same ballpark of the V-Caps.

Tim

If you feel that V-caps TFTF are too high an investment, check out the Solen FEP TFTFs.

http://www.solen.ca/caps/fet.htm
Do note that these are the green ones, using same TFTF Tin Foil Teflon Film construction. They are also about 30% smaller than the V-caps with same values.

The blue ones are not the same in construction, not TFTF.
http://www.solen.ca/caps/fep.htm
Do note that they are rated at 450Vdc. The 1000Vdc ones are very expensive.

In another amp, we have done up quite a couple of tube amps with the V-caps, used as coupling caps. My own amp is done up with Solens, and 2 others as of now. My comment is that there is very little difference between them, maybe the V-cap is just that wee little bit more detailed and transparent. Both caps transform the stock amp dramatically, it is quite an improvement from the Mundorf Supremes that I changed out (already modded state). We also scoped the tube amp outputs at 1kHz and 10kHz, it looks very good and very much better than other the usual audiophile caps. I don't think you will notice any difference between V-cap/Solen TFTF unless your system is absolutely top-notch.

The Solens will be a very viable choice if your amp has quite a number of high uF caps to change out.

Yes I know Solen has a bad rep for its much lower cost Fastcaps, but this TFTF type from Solen simply bears no resemblance to its lower-range siblings.

2100, what's your source for the green Solen tin and foil. I just looked at the parts connexion catalog and they stock only up to .47uf values and the Solen site you gave show only up to .82uf. I'm looking for 1uf and above.

Hello Sherod, my source for the caps is in Singapore. Anyway, Solen does not manufacture more than 0.82uF for the 450Vdc versions. If you need 1uF and above, I guess you can try paralleling them (when you parallel caps, the capacitance add up, eg 0.5 + 0.5 = 1.0). They are non-polarised. Before you do anything, do give SCR or Solen an email.

Given their lower cost, just 2 or 4 Solen FEPs should be pretty manageable. Good luck! :)

Capacitors, resistors, int.wiring...

Capacitors: Is it correct if I'll use bigger values?
Right now is 0.22mf.What if I put a pair of 1.00mf ?

Resistors: Which resistors are the most important in vk-60 for change ? In what position ? Does anyone knows that?

Internal wiring: Any suggestion ? What if I replace that grey Belden ? Perhaps with Kimber ?

Thanks

Viewed through the side or bottom cover, you’ll see four 2”L x 3/4”W yellow/green caps across the PCB beneath the 6C33C tubes. The caps are marked Balance Audio Technology ..22uf/630V. They can be desoldered without removing the main PCB, and replaced with four V-Cap TFTF .22uf/600V. When installing the V-Caps, face the red lead to the rear of the chassis and the green lead to the front. Put a piece of Radio Shack double-sided cushioning tape between each cap & the PB.

Replacing the stock Belden low-level signal wire with better IC wire is a good idea. Raising the value of the coupling caps will exaggerate bass response, perhaps to a fault. IMO nothing is wrong with LF in the BAT other than that it could be tighter & more dynamic-- and you will get to this with .22uf V-Caps.

Just 0.22mf or bigger ?

About LF I agree.It really is a strong point of vk-60 anyway.

Thanks
D

Stick with .22uf and check out Atmasphere's response at the end of:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1170369408&read&h12&zzlAtmasphere&&#rest