I’ve spent considerable money and time assembling a great all-digital two-channel audio system. I want to experience vinyl reproduction. My budget is $10-12K for turntable, arm, cartridge, phono cable, and phono stage. Two things I do not want. One is to get on a spiraling upgrade path. The second is to avoid too much fiddling and tweaking and adjusting. I am open to used or refurbished equipment, as well as new gear. I primarily listen to Jazz and Rock music. Very little classical. Thoughts?
My recommendation for a no fuss analog system is the one below. A few hundred under your price at list.
The turntable and arm are very easy to set up together. The cartridge is an outstanding performer matched to a dedicated phono preamp. Worth auditioning if you have not heard a DS Audio cartridge.
Dr Feickert Analogue Woodpecker turntable $6,995 with
Jelco TK 850L tonearm
DS Audio DS E1 Optical Phono Cartridge System $2,750
J A Michell Gyro SE plus Techno Arm w/Dynavector 20x2L, Manley Labs Chinook phono stage, Manley Labs Jumbo Shrimp line stage.......Goose Bump City! Plus you get to tube roll!! How fun. Once you set the Turntable up you dont have to fiddle, just enjoy :-)
And less than 10K
Matt M
P.S. IMO if you dont have at least 2,000 records you may just want to stay digital. Source material will be your main problem, its harder now to find good original clean sounding albums, NEW pressings often times will disappoint.
I think the question should be, what is the best analog for you for $10,000. You have more than enough of a budget to have yourself a really nice set up.
Do you have any local audio stores, where you can start to learn in person, more about the different brand turntables , phono preamps and cartridges to choose from?
*timo62* That's the problem I have. I live in rural Wyoming. The closest audio stores are about 5 hours away in Denver. I've built an entire audio system by reading audio reviews or recommendations, making a short list, and trying to listen to some of those components at dealers or audio shows. Then I try to purchase items I'm interested in, either as used or dealer demos. I might bring in three DACs or amplifiers, listen to them in my own system for a month or two, and keep the components I love. I can usually resell the rest and not get stung too badly. I'm a little afraid of moving turntables around, as they seem more delicate than other gear.
Technics 1200G. I doubt you find anything much better and its a lot less. Now if you going to spend 20K+, well then I might say well yes, there are better. Buy an Acoustic Systems Arche' Headshell and a Lyra Delos and you are set. Thats about 7G or so.
That is why my simple recommendation especially with regard to new equipment will be a good solution for you. You can find my recommendations in Denver. Have it set up, drive it home, put it on a stand, listen to music without having to worry.
*jperry* I read a review of the DS Audio Optical cartridge system last night. The reviewer makes it sound both state-of-the-art, and potentially ruthlessly revealing. It certainly differs so from convention that I would surely want to hear the system before committing to it. One drawback I can think of is if I purchased a great phono stage, it's adjustability would allow me to try different cartridges. With the DS Audio, you are committed to their complete system. But I did ask to minimize tweaking, didn't I? Lol
Every time you change cartridges you need to re-balance the tonearm and set VTA, unless you have a non detachable headshell, then it is more work. You may also need to reset the cartridge loading for a MC cartridge.
I like fiddling with turntable related stuff, but I know that is not true for everyone.
Well the Herron for sure. World-class performance, real-world price, so highly sought after you can sell and get 90% of your money back easily, any time, on the off chance you decide to bail on analog. Hey, it happens.
Interconnect, simply buy the best Synergistic Research you can afford, used.
Go with just about any arm in your range but do NOT go with any arm that requires its own interconnect. Hard wired arms only. Arms that require a separate interconnect (like Graham, which I had) the connections all degrade the sound by an amount you will not believe until you go to an arm (like Origin Live, which I have) with direct RCA wired right to the cartridge pins.
Your budget is also just enough you should be able to get a Koetsu Black Goldline, about $2500. What I like about the Koetsu, it sounds so good you just lose all interest in fussing with it. Other cartridges I had before, always felt like VTA needed to be perfectly dialed in. I was one of those guys who would do this with every record, write it down, set it every time. With the Koetsu I did this about three times, and yes I could hear a difference, but unlike the others that were clearly better with it precise with the Koetsu it seemed only slightly different, not necessarily clearly better, and so I was happy to just leave it be.
Koetsu, Herron, Origin Live, and Synergistic- cannot recommend them enough.
As for the turntable, I am going to go different than everyone else and say whichever one you like. Buying the table and arm separately usually winds up being better, but with a lot more work. Which honestly, if you get the other stuff recommended here that's 90% of it and you can safely go with a table/arm sold together and still be totally captivated with the results.
In fact the main problem will probably be what to do with your digital gear when you realize its just not cutting it any more.
I know this is a different question than the one originally asked, but what if I went out and bought a VPI Player or a Shinola Runwell. All in one box solution. How much performance am I leaving on the table compared to the $10K suggestions?
I recently purchased a TT setup from a dealer in CA that has a fairly large inventory of a variety of turntable/accessories and manufacturers. I also liked their website in that it was easy to navigate. I spent a lot of time looking at different manufacturers and reading a lot professional and amateur reviews (HA! Not many bad reviews of anything out there!) It was a good way of, at least, becoming familiar with what’s out there. I was getting back into analog and critically listening to music for enjoyment once again after 25 years! I was into home theater for much of that time. Anyway, spent a lot of time looking at stuff and doing some reading. I enjoy the process!
If I were to make some suggestions: I wouldn’t select a system based on the size of your vinyl collection. There still so many pieces of vinyl out there on the market in good to excellent condition! There’s probably100 times that much sitting unused in peoples basements. I pulled that estimate out of the air; who really knows! When I bought my TT set up six months ago ($10,000) I only had 275 albums in my collection. I’ve acquired a few more since then and I have been pleased at the condition of vinyl out there. Have fun listening and getting new! I forgot how exciting it was to pick out an album and hurry home to listen to it! Check out discogs.com. It’s an online clearing-house comprised of buyers and sellers. Also I’ve had luck at the lady at the farmers market who specializes in vinyl, per say. She has a picker who buys the for her, and she puts them into boxes and lays them out. The only form of separation is condition. Trash goes out front and the rest in the back. You’re on your own after that! I stop at garage sales and ask if they have any albums. Never have I seen albums as part of the sale. It’s amazing how many people have them sitting in their basement but never put them out or say, "I don’t have any but my father has a stack!". Sometimes it’s because they never thought of it or they want to keep them. Anyway, I spent 10k on my set up and don’t regret it for a second. I am loving what I’m hearing. Whatever you do, give the cartridge great consideration! Excluding the vinyl, the cartridge is where any and all sonic quality begins (it ends with your speakers). I would try to get a 13K system for your $1k by taking advantage of dealer discounts and dealer discounts on discontinued items. I got a discontinued Soundsmith cartridge, that for years, retailed at $4K. The was selling them for $2k. I got a discontinued VPI turntable on sale and had the dealer swap out the existing tonearm (for a credit) and upgraded to a better tonearm (for an up-charge). I got the Manley Chinook phono-stage on sale. In addition, the dealer set-up the tonearm, mounted and aligned the cartridge.
I’m not sure if you can name dealers that you purchased equipment from, so I’ll refrain from doing so.
I’m in a similar situation you are as far as auditioning things. As a result, I didn’t audition any of my TT setup.
Whatever you get, I'm sure you'll love it! Enjoy the ride!
You will continue to receive responses ad infinitum, because a $10K budget leaves a lot of room for a lot of optional choices. I personally won’t bother to bother you about my own personal preferences. I would only suggest that for your first high end rig, you might want to stay away from novelties, like the DS Audio cartridge. It may be excellent, but you would not be in a position to know that if you have never heard a conventional cartridge in your new system-to-be. You will be confused enough trying to choose among Moving Magnet (MM), Moving Iron (MI), and Moving Coil (MC) cartridge choices. Further, maybe you should save out about $2K for new LPs to expand your collection. Have fun.
Dear @iamgoodwithtools : Well important as is the hardware the software is more important and 200 LPs could does not makes " an analog experience ".
"""
Two things I do not want. One is to get on a spiraling upgrade path. The second is to avoid too much fiddling and tweaking and adjusting. """
Those just does not exist in analog, here does not exist " plug and play " not even over time because VTF, cartridges, VTA or AZ always needs to re-set or the choosed tonearm/cartridge alignment.
In the other side today digital technology already ouitperformed the best analog and digital will continue its growing up developments when analog already stopped many years ago and will stays in that way.
10K or 20K is not the issue, the issue is that digital beats analog no matter what.
Yes you want live the experience of analog and what you will get will be a different sound but certainly not a true better sound.
Could be better to use those 10K for up-grade your digital whiole rig and you will be more happy than using that money in analog.
Only an opinion but I know that the best opinion is yours.
Btw, I like analog and own over 7K LPs that can't beats digital not even the D2D recordings.
rauliruegas"the issue is that digital beats analog no matter what."
Actually this has been clearly shown, demonstrated, and revealed to be completely, totally, and without reservation false and inaccurate it reflects a profound misunderstanding of the nature of analog and digital processes and implementations and in particular there are analog tape technologies that will wipe away any advantage that digital may have at its fundamental core and basis but if all analog is to you is a cutrate turntable and homemade tonearm then it is likely to lead you to this conclusion that is erroneous in nature and claim.
@clearthink : I'm refering with analog to LPs, I'm not talking of analog tapes.
"""
has been clearly shown, demonstrated, and revealed to be completely ..""
in other threads the digital vs LP fulfilled that statement even in those discusions was proved that in our ears/brain relationship every human been has an ADC. It is at the inner ear and the way we detect sound.
Distortions levels specially in the playbck process is huge in LP vs digital playback process. Even does not exist continuity in the LP playback process. You need to read all those posts, no I do not repeat or paste it, is your home work if interested to learn why is that way an not your wrong way of thinking.
Enough. digitAl vs LP is not the OP. Just pertinent opinion for some one with almosto no LP software.
I was just at VPI Industries today. I am impressed with the service and the people there. Since they are made in the US I learn more towards a company that has made an excellent product and can get serviced.
That being said, some of the new TTs they are making today are better but also cheaper than the ones they made in the past. Well made and a great bunch of people. If you are in the NJ area, call them and stop in for an audition. They will also help you upgrade one if you buy it used.
FWIW, I don't consider the amount of vinyl I presently own a major factor in deciding how much to spend on analog reproduction. I have a full-time job, like most people, and a house to take care of, like many people. I consider my most precious asset not to be money, but to have free time to do the things I enjoy. I, on average, listen to my system about 10-15 hours a week. That is Precious Time, to me. I want the best audio reproduction I can afford during that time. I have probably 200-300 SACDs of music I enjoy, and the recording significantly surpasses CD in quality. That did not stop me from purchasing a T+A PDP 3000 HV to enjoy those SACDs with.
So many ways to spend $10k on vinyl system you're asking for. Each one will post what he's personally like, it might be hundreds of completely different opinions, why it is important for you if you have never ever heard any system of the contributors in this thread ?
You have a huge budget to buy a decent system, but nobody knows what you like in your room, except you.
I often read "this is the best i ever heard", but i heard it too and it's not the best in my opinion. We're all have different standards.
I can only say that you can buy a great system for less than $10k and even if you will spend $20k it is not necessary better than $5k system.
*chakster* I agree with you. The only thing that ultimately matters is if I love what I hear in my room. I have found this thread useful because it's given me a place to start. I've been playing with digital for over 25 years. I know Nothing about analog. I purposely ignored it. Now, I need to start somewhere.
Dear @iamgoodwithtools : """
I want the best audio reproduction I can afford during that time. """
if that's true then you can honor your words up-grading your digital gear. Hi-res Streamers and today DACs are really great and not even for 20K LPs can not only outperforms it but not even today digital.
But it's not only about money but true/real knowledge level to make an nalog rig overll set ut for that analog rig could shows t its best nd tht knowledge levels takes to any one not weeks or months but yers of hard self lerning lessons. Have you the time an patience for that and from whom learn it? have you an idea what means whole analog set up knowledge and skills levels?
Chakster and I are in near complete agreement (see my post of few days ago). You need to know something about what YOU like or want out of a vinyl system. For that, you might want to travel a bit and listen to as many different systems and combinations as possible, preferably systems that are otherwise similar to yours in type of speaker and choice of amplification. (The systems you audition need not include the exact same amplifiers and speakers as yours, just equipment that is similar in type.) Keep a list of what you like and don't like.
Audiophiles are often constant upgraders and you might be able to buy a turntable with cartridge for half price that someone set up properly and was happy with until upgraditis struck them, when they want to sell the existing rig to try something else
That way you might get a $20K rig for your $10K investment.
I'm refering with analog to LPs, I'm not talking of analog tapes.
the LP has wider bandwidth, lower noise and lower distortion than tape. So this statement seems a bit conflicted. @imgoodwithtools My recommendation is also the Technics SL1200G. This machine has the high end turntable industry shaking in its boots on account of Technics knows what they are doing and for a small manufacturer to do as well it would cost a bit more. The weak points of this machine are the platter pad and the arm (which is actually quite competent as tone arms go; but the 'table is nearly state of the art). This is going to gooble about 4K out of your budget. The Hana SH is a very nice and not crazy money moving coil cartridge that has spectacular reviews and would be a nice combo.
One thing to understand about analog: the ability of the arm to track the cartridge properly (which often has a lot to do with proper setup) is far more important than what cartridge you ultimately get. For this reason a less expensive cartridge can sound as good as a really expensive one if your setup is done correctly.
I recommend looking into a good tube phono section. Tip: a phono section has to be stable- if not it contributes significantly to ticks and pops.
Dear @atmasphere : I posted that way because the playback process in R2R does not develops so many distortions as the LP playback whole process and because in the tape was not recorded the RIAA eq. curve and low registers comes in stereo.
+1 atmasphere Technics SL1200G for DD and will compete with BD and will probably last you forever +1Agribba Allnic H-1202 or Herron VTPH-2A (~$3500) - I am looking for either one of these now as I use a Lehman Black Cube se2 and ready to move up. Acoustic Signature Turntables -for belt = German engineering and easy to set up. Their tone arm is easy to set. Set it and forget it. To me it doesn't matter how many albums you have if what you do have you listen to. Enjoy the journey , I too crossed back over the tracks and spend at least 50% of my time on vinyl and enjoy it more.
There is a classified at Agon of a used Amazon Referenz (very fine tt from Frankfurt, Germany) with an installed Moerch Dp-6 tonearm for under 4k US$. It is a bargain indeed since its retail price in Europe is around 8k euros only for the tt.
I would seriously consider purchasing it if I was in the US, and then ask the distributor Sora Sound (from Chicago afaik) to upgrade the tonearm for the Moerch DP-8. The great advantage of this arm are the interchangeable armwands of different weight to adapt to the chosen cartidge. Moreover, you can also install a second tonearm on that table. Cartridge will depend on phono stage and the rest of your setup. Analog is a chain.
It depends on whether you have set up skills, proper tools and patience. If you do, lots of good suggestions above. I'll add to the Herron phono stage suggestions, no better at the price. If you don't, get the new Rega P10 with the best Rega cartridge you can afford. Removes the most complex variables leaving you simply with VTF and anti-skating.
I posted that way because the playback process in R2R does not develops
so many distortions as the LP playback whole process and because in the
tape was not recorded the RIAA eq. curve and low registers comes in
stereo.
@rauliruegas Just so you know, the bit of this statement after 'LP playback' is so garbled that it makes no sense. Could you restate it?
Dear @ct0517 : Thank's. I could think that atmasphere knews exactly what I refered to, but....???
I can add to your post: inverse RIAA eq too, disortions/resonances/vibrations developed in between cartridge ridding LP modulations then the developed resonances developed by the TT/tonearm feedback. LP playback process is a " nigthmare " but even that sounds good.
Well, you asked … so here are some recommendations worth exactly what you paid for them.
Turntable: VPI Prime ($4k-4.5k) Full disclosure: I have a different VPI 'table (Classic, which is no longer made as far as I know) in large part because, once set up properly, you don't have to fiddle with it.
Cartridge: Lyra. All day. I have the Delos, their entry-level and it is fantastic. Folks that know a lot more than me have written comparisons and said Lyra blows away Koetsu. If you can stretch for the Kleos at $3.7k, even better.
Phono stage: Pretty much a matter of synergy with what you have. I wanted tubes in my vinyl signal path, and picked an Audio Research PH-5, which has been a trooper. But there are lots of good phono stages in the $2.5k-$3.5k range, from Parasound to Herron Audio to VTL to … oh, how I lust for new Boulder at $5k, tube comments not withstanding.
Cables: important, but less so than the other elements in the chain, assuming you maintain a certain level of quality.
The prices I've quoted are new. If you could find "gently used," you might do even better.
R2R does not suffer RIAA Eq. and the lowest bass registers / octaves are in stereo - unlike LP which are in mono.
This statement is incorrect. LP bass is mono **only if the bass was out of phase** in the original recording. Out of phase bass can knock a stylus out of the groove, but is something that only occurs if the recording engineer isn't careful when making a multi-channel recording- for example bass guitar notes being out of phase with kick drum. The processing that is done in this case (if the processor is used at all) causes a passive circuit to make the bass mono below a certain frequency (usually about 80Hz, since bass below this frequency is the problem area and is heard by the human ear as omindirectional), **but only for a few milliseconds** until the bass event has passed. R2R has EQ very similar to the RIAA in the bass region. Because of the requirements of gain, usually the tape EQ cuts off at a higher frequency than LP equalization- 30Hz is typical. Since we have enough gain to work with low output moving coil cartridges, when we set up tape EQ in our preamps we can cut off at 16Hz, but this pretty unusual.
Tape of course has EQ and its really not dramatically different from the RIAA curve- which is why its possible to build a preamp that has easily switchable EQ for tape and phono. Saying that tape doesn't suffer EQ is ridiculous.
One might keep in mind that tape is used to make a recording because its easily erased and edited; lacquers are not. However if you have any LPs made from R2R, you can hear when the tape is started at the beginning of the LP- the noise floor increases. LP is the mass media for the simple reason that is has wider bandwidth, lower distortion and lower noise than R2R, which makes it possible to encompass the R2R recording.
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