I’ve been thinking a little bit about three different types of SS amplifier sounds. I’m not really sure what to call them, but I have a definite preference. Here is the spectrum in my mind:
Ayre <--> Parasound <--> Pass
On the one hand is Ayre and Arcam. Yeah, fight me, but there are big similarities to the sound. I also loved the Pono and what it did for my IEMs, using the Ayre designed output stage. I wish Fiio would license it too.
In the middle is Parasound Halo and ICEpower Class D modules (I’ve owned both) which to me are identical in sound quality. Clearly I’m happy with them for the price!
On the opposite end of the spectrum is Pass. A sound I really don’t like.
But regardless of which you like, what do you think the differences are?
What spectrum do you use to think about solid state amplifiers??
A lot would depend upon the speakers being driven. For me, using Vandersteen speakers, Ayre seems to be the best choice. I haven't had any experience with Class D amps- though I would be interested in trying. Pass would seem to be a better choice for hard to drive speakers, which may be why you find them off putting. Just my 2 cents... B
They sound "weird." I don't have a better way to describe it. Also honestly a little thin and weak sounding. Which is a real shame because I wanted to like them. Aesthetically they are divine!
I think of the Ayre sound as very smooth, almost to a fault, and maybe not as dynamically robust as some, but I could see it being easy to live with. I can only comment on one Pass amp, the X250.5. I owned it for a brief time, and it sounded thin and the opposite of organic or musical. I was very aware of it.
Parasound amps sound nothing like ICE or Hypex-based amps -- probably because ICE and Hypex (even the hybrids) sound little like a good class A/AB amp.
@helomech : I lived with Parasound Halo A23's (a pair fo them) for months. I built ICEPower ASP 250 based monoblocks. I could not tell them apart under any circumstances. Which is why I sold the Parasounds and kept the high efficiency monoblocks instead.
@roxy54 - That is my experience as well, even with many speakers, many rooms and many different Pass amps. Ayre IS very very smooth, and open.
Erik, I think there are too many variables to draw any meaningful conclusions relative to the sound quality among these different brands. My anecdotal experience having heard Parasound A23 and an older but comparably powered Ayre amp in the same system was the Parasound didn't even come close to the fullness and organic sound of the Ayre. I also heard the Pass XA100.5 monos in a completely different system and room driving Vandersteen Treo CT speakers and they sounded incredibly transparent, full body and musical. Any input will be completely subjective borderline pointless.
I have recently entered direct experience with Parasound amps. They are very very good. However, stock, they are definitely a tiny bit on the thin side and somewhat lacking in resolution (to my expectations). They are VERY refined and smooth, however. The problem with Parasound is that they fuse the heck out of everything inside.
The A21 as 5 fuses total:
1 x 15A main fuse
4 x 8A post transformer fuses
JC1s have 7 fuses total:
1 x 12A main fuse
2 x 12A post transformer amp fuse
2 x 1A post transformer driver board fuse
2 x 1A (small) post regulator driver board fuse
Once I upgraded everything to Furutech fuses (my standard), it really resolved the initial "lacking" characteristics.
I have read that the smaller A23 is not even in the same league as A21. Not sure about this. Could be the smaller power supply, but it still has at least 5 fuses.
In one setup, I'm using 3 Parasound JC 1 monoblocks to drive KEF Reference 1072/2s and a 204/2C, and 2 A 23s to drive 4 LS50 surrounds. In another setup, I previously used A 21s to drive a pair of LS50s, but a brief stint with 20-watt Cary CD 572 SE monoblocks led me to an Ayre VX-5 Twenty to capture that sound stage. which it pretty much did without the PITA tubes. For driving LS50s, I'd rank the Ayre first, followed at a distance by the A 21 and an even greater distance by the A23. I haven't compared the Ayre and JC 1s in the same setup, but the JC 1s sure are magnificent with the KEF reference speakers -- I suspect it's their ability to deliver the current the reference speakers seem to thrive on. I have not heard a Pass amp.
This is the first time I’ve heard Pass Labs amps being described as thin and really that is the furthest from my experience with them. So I guess it all comes down to system particulars.
I like Ayre as well but would say that compared to Pass, they are leaner sounding - at least the non Twenty versions are.
I came close to buying some MX R’s (non Twenty) but ended up with Pass which had a more ballsy and definitely fuller sound. Thin they are definitely not. I've heard the X250.5 and would not describe them as thin either - granted the top end has a bit of grain. The Ayre’s were smooth and rolled off up top in a good way and I would have been happy with them too.
@helomech : I lived with Parasound Halo A23's (a pair fo them) for months. I built ICEPower ASP 250 based monoblocks. I could not tell them apart under any circumstances. Which is why I sold the Parasounds and kept the high efficiency monoblocks instead.
I don't have experience with the A23s, but if your amps managed to sound like the Halo Integrated or JC1s, then you should seriously consider selling your design as they would be some of the best sounding class D amps available. I even preferred the Halo Integrated to the Devialet Expert Pro (something, don't recall the number, some $30K amp). Surprised that some claim Parasound is thin, that's the opposite of my experience. Every class D amp I've encountered lacked bass at lower SPLs and had a clinical, albeit articulate sound. Unfortunately they had no soul. I suppose they could be good for monitoring purposes - so long as it's at 80db^ for decent low-octave bass.
I totally agree with helomech's opinion of Class D lacking soul (or air, if you will). If you can't hear the difference between Class D and Parasound A23, it could be something else in your system that is limiting the resolution (such as speaker, or source, or cables).
@helomech - Maybe it helps that the speakers I was comparing with are super easy to drive, especially in the treble.
I've never heard Parasound amps sounding thin either. A touch on the warm side, and as much bass as the recording has.
My Class D amps are OEM modules stuffed into Chinese cases, nothing special. But I had a number of audiophiles over, including one who lives with a Pass stack. None felt the need to comment on the sound of the amps. :)
Classe D amps have come a long way and have gone through significant improvements sonically compared to early class D designs from back in the day. Overall performance wise I myself still prefer analog (class A or AB) amps or tubes indeed, but nowadays I’ve heard very good class D designs such as the Classe Sigma amplifiers which are class D design that uses Classe’s own proprietary class D design circuitry.
These Classe Sigma class D design amplifiers sounded better than most class D design amps I’ve heard out there, they are smooth, very dynamics, refined, highly resolved, very transparent, fast, has rhtymic drive. The highs are very smooth surprisingly and they have very good separations between different instruments and vocals within the soundstage and have good amounts of air and space between them but they somewhat lack midrange and mid-bass bloom and the bass power but the lower bass goes really deep and is very extended but the mid to upper bass are somewhat lacking in comparison to Classe’s own class AB designs (Classe Delta series amps) or class A designs (Classe Omega series amps). Classe’s own class AB or A design amps have fuller sounds and more musical and quieter and better overall than its class D designs found in its Sigma series amps.
But in contrary to what someone said earlier in this thread that class D amps lack air, not all class D amps lack air. These Classe Sigma series class D amps do not lack air IMO. Some cheaper and lower end class D design amps might lack air but not these Classe Sigma series amps.
But yes I agree that all class D design amps lack soul, lush sound, the artist’s expressions and overall musicality but they are good for HT applications IMO they are very dynamic and fast which will suit well for HT system especially those DTS-HD Master Audio, Dolby True-HD or even Dolby Atmos & DTS-X formats from bluray & 4k UHD bluray discs.
In regards to Ayre, Parasound Halo, Pass amps I think they are all very good amps in their price points but again it all depends on your speakers and the rest of your setup eg preamp, front end source components, cables, etc. One amplifier could sound really good on certain speakers and in certain setups but not necessarily will have the same good sonic synergy or overall results in different setups and systems. I believe in overall system synergy, interactions between different components within your setup and system thus achieve overall sound quality or audio performance of your setup and system.
looks like Ayre is moving 5 miles to bigger digs....congrats and as such having a moving sale...see your local dealer for details... i have no dog in fight only bit of Ayre kit at moment is the A2D in my mobile recording rack....a ref level a2d would be badA !!!!!!
After eight years of owning a Bryston 4B-SST² I can say that it can be made to sound like ANYTHING I WANT
@elizabeth I'm confused by your statement. Is it the amp that sounds different or is it your system based on the changes you are making (attributable to those changes)? Thanks.
@elizabeth is pretty much spot on, i can attest that in a reasonably resolving system, outlet and power cord can significantly impact sound....for me a $750 MIT power cord into an Ayre VX-R was not the answer......
@tomic601 I have heard similar reports regarding Ayre amps and 'upgraded' power cords. One fellow said it is probably the zero feedback design. Who knows, but it seems that Ayre sound reproduction is not affected by changing power cords (or, it doesn't seem to change significantly). B
To put all Class D amps in the same category or believing they have the same sound characteristics is just ignorant. I have listened to many Class D amps and have owned five different ones. Almost all of them retailed for over $3500.00 and not one of them sounded dull, lifeless or without soul.
I’ll put my Esoteric I-03 Integrated Class D amp up at the top of the heap of all Class D amps I have heard and just about every A/B amp I have heard too. I bought a gently used Mark Levinson No 585 Integrated earlier this year and sold it because the I-03 sounded better in my system and to my ears.
Having said all that, I still use and very much enjoy my Pass Labs INT-30A Integrated Class A amp.
I just recently heard the Pass XA25 paired with a Herron preamp driving a larger floor standing Omega speakers at a house of a local audio club member. He had them set up in a room roughly 14X18 with the speakers well into the room along the long wall. The amp was only a week old and I can confess it was one of the best sounding systems I had ever heard. Melody Gardot never sounded so real to my ears. If I was not married I'd steal/borrow to have that system. FWIW.
I think we look or want to have the most we can get from the amps we invest into. My amps must be balanced, have very nice and "true" tones, they must be fast, powerful, recreate the soundstage and image, and they must have timing, attack and big dynamics to make the music lively. But, as always, any amp will also be allowed to perform its best in accordance to associated gear on each end.
Looks like Esoteric has moved away from class D in all of their current amplifier designs. What exactly was the class D topology referred to as “MSW Pure Class D power amplifier” in the legacy Esoteric integrated amps?
I find many of the comments about class D topology to be counter to my experience. Yes, not many years ago, it was a new and difficult topology to execute well. That is no longer true.
I own parasound gear (halo A23 and P3) in one system. It’s good but not great, but nice from a performance/value standpoint. In a newer system, I own NAD Masters series which is class D. The NAD is in another league relative to the parasound as it’s more musical, smoother, more revealing. Of course, it was also a lot more expensive. However, I also own the PS Audio Stellar stack in a third system and it’s shockingly good for the price. (It might be as good as the NAD but they’re in different locations so no comparison can be made). It’s very smooth, very full and very nice to listen to on speakers that can be very unforgiving too. The Stellar stack replaced a class A/B amp topology and a very well regarded DAC which together cost 2x more, and the improvement was immediate and significant. The claim that companies are making class D because it’s so cheap to execute is just plain wrong. Yes, there are cheap, poorly executed examples, particularly in HT. But this can be true of any topology, including class A, SET, class A/B, etc and there are myriad examples of poorly done versions of each. I will also say that I went out of my way to evaluate class D because I wanted these newer systems to be more effecient to reduce their environmental impact. Personally, it seems to me we should be pushing for more class D gear and should begin to steer away from class A gear (whether tubes or SS). There are now good sounding alternatives available.
I recently removed a Lyngdorf 2170 from my system and replaced with an Ayre A7-XE which is a very affordable fully balanced integrated amp. I have heard some say oh its only 60 watts it will never drive my speakers and I guess that could be true of some very inefficient speakers. This change opened up my analog front ends ( vinyl and cassette) and really allowed them to shine both in mid to upper low bass and vocals, acoustic guitar and piano.
Right now I have never been as happy with my sq, this little Ayre most definitely rocks. And I have yet to exceed 45 on the volume and that drove my Triangle Altea speakers to 95db spl
Yep. I'm listening to Class D right now. Of the brands mentioned, I'd only move to Ayre if I had the money. If I had to consolidate even further, I might go with an Arcam integrated. :)
@erik_squires TBH, the Ayre ax-7e can be had for very little coin on the used market. Yes it is no frills but a fully balanced design with 2 xlr and 2 rca inputs and a tape out. Built like a tank and although only a claimed 60 wpc, they are HUGE ones. Worth a test drive unless you want more frills, or a much newer unit. I run my DAC into one of the xlr, my ph10 phono into the other xlr, my pioneer sacd into 1 rca and my nakamich cassette into the last rca. I use the tape out to drive a Schiit Vali headphone amp.
OK, lets cut to the chase ... the Pass 250 is like .... the TOTL, top of the line ... to say it is thin is not accurate, and If so, I would look to your other components, b/c the Pass is not to blame.
I just heard the Pass 250 in 2-3 rooms at CAS last month, and it sounded like the cleanest, most accurate, most musical and intimate sound even with the Dynaudio Contour 60s. I say this b/c the Contours dont produce the type of distortion that lends to a gravity or "fullness" of the music like a tube amp does. And therefore, even without hamonic distortions, the Pass 250 sounded real, present, natural and effortless.
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