looks like the guy who does the reviews plays with a pink panther figurine all the time... its a okay movie...but i dont like it too much. the reviews are so hard to figure out. i am lost for words and not totally understanding what i am reading. basically it seems like he does not like most of the audio products.
can i get AMAZING sound quality for only $50 ? my bank told me i cant make any withdrawals...my wife took control. now she is not talking to me. and she locked my bedroom drawer with a little more cash. but i have $50 so i can buy something online for my JVC earbuds...i have the JVC Gumy PLUS. the sound quality is premium but i want more. i am thinking of a DIVORCE. if my wife is not going to CHANGE!!
can someone help me find a good value audio product. i need some help. also the audio store told me "do not return" i dont know what is wrong with them. i said they were not very helpful. then the MANAGER said how can I HELP YOU?? i said...i have a team of audiophiles already helping me...you guys...
You're a good guy Prof. I by the way have no conviction that my view is correct. It is only a viewpoint. I actually no longer believe that tube amps are superior to solid state, only different. I also have come to believe that vinyl is objectively
AND subjectively inferior to digital in MY system. As to cables, I wish you could hear the impact that different S/PDIF cables between my Aurender W20 and SW1X DAC III B have on the sound. The differences are stark. Not quite as obvious but close is the difference in sound quality between various XLR cables between my ARC Ref 6 and two true-balanced ARC amps, a Ref 150 SE and Ref 80S.
Something you mention that is a conceptual non-starter for me is blind testing. As subjective as this hobby is, there is no escaping human behavior and human limitations. Listening impressions take time. Time is anathema to blind testing. We humans can remember a particular feeling or impression but it is not reliably repeatable. With the benefit of time we can gain an average perception and that is all. This is the other side of the coin for so-called blind testing. "Sure you don't appreciate a difference-you did not have enough time to perceive it".
It is certainly ironic that certain cable manufacturers insist on doing ABX testing to prove their wares. More times than not the "test" is rigged.
Just so you don’t get an incorrect impression: While I definitely side with ASR that, strictly speaking, the most reliable method of evaluating gear would include measurements and if possible blind testing, in the real world that’s often not possible or practical so we all make our decisions on how to evaluate gear.
Yes many ASR members are very measurement oriented (which is perfectly fine in my book), but there’s also members who enjoy a range of equipment, lots of it not on the "ASR approved" list.
I’ve spent lots of time defending my use of tube amps, vinyl (to those who don’t see the point, some ASR members do understand the point) and even liking speakers that don’t measure great re the Harman curve And I’ve been a thorn in the side very often defending the worth of subjective reviews.
And, yes, there IS a certain strain of thinking on ASR that, if it were widely adopted would, in principle, rule out a huge variety of speakers that are currently available and the many speaker designs people have loved over the years, that don’t meet ASR-like standards. I’ve made threads on the topic there, and it is a type of philosophical difference I hold vs many on that forum. My personal preference is that there continue to be a wide variety of speaker designs that don’t have to meet a certain "best practices" dictum or house curve, so people who want those speakers can be catered to. I’ve often used my enjoyment of Devore speakers as an example. I’m glad as heck such designs exist, where they don’t get a second glance by many at ASR.
I’ve never tried to beat anyone up over the method they want to use for evaluating gear. But when we are trying to get at some truth of any matter - and audiophiles are making truth claims all the time - then we can have a discussion with varying viewpoints IMO.
As to cables: I always try to be careful not to make some broad claim based on my personal experience. So for instance I blind tested Shunyata cables against off the shelf cheap AC cables. Thought I heard a difference sighted listening. Couldn’t tell them apart under blinded conditions. Do I therefore say "my own blind test proves AC cables don’t make any sonic difference?" Of course not. No person familiar with the scientific method should make that mistake. Rather, it’s useful for my own purposes, and if someone else cares to use my report as a data point in their own
view, that’s up to them.
Likewise regarding any cables. I don’t propose that not hearing cable differences in my system, or anywhere else, means "no cables make sonic differences." I AM however, I think, rightly skeptical based on the nature of claims made about cables - many of which people knowledgeable in electronics theory point out as highly suspicious - and the nature of how those claims generally are made (audiophiles claiming to hear differences, when I know both from science, and from personal experience, how our perception can be fooled). So I wait for stronger evidence.
Note though, that if many here think that they are seeing an "objectivist" suggest from their blind test that cables don't make a sonic difference, they will leap on the objectivist for illegitimately drawing such general conclusions from their experience.
And yet all the time we see people here saying "Cables make a difference! I know that because I've done the tests in my own system!" But these generalizations are immediately glossed over because, well, that's the going bias in forums like this.
Finally, my anecdote about my recent cable swap is only one of many. I’ve had many audiophile friends, including many in the industry, and so over the years I’ve been able to play with lots of different cables. I’ve even heard speakers I own with over $50,000 worth of Nordost and Crystal cable (and others). So, even for my own purposes, I’m not just basing my lack of being impressed on a one-off with those recent interconnects.
If someone else feels expensive cables are worth their money...enjoy.
I have complimented your writing, you ability to convey listening impressions, and even your taste in components many times.
In my very humble view, ASR caters to objectivists. ASR is the audio equivalent of populist politics. Beguiling to certain inherent prejudices and pre-ordained schools of thought. Saying that you borrowed a friend's pair of $4,500 cables is not the same as saying you sampled ten pair of cables on loan from a certain PA-based retailer that loans out high-end cables for a pittance. I have done that four or five times.
There is no "absolute sound" and there is no objective measure of a subjective experience.
To many, to VERY many in fact, the sound character of Benchmark gear is sterile and non-engaging. Only one reviewer (say what you will, Stereophile's reviewers have broad perspective and good cred) at S'Phile uses Benchmark gear and that would be Kalman Rubinson, my least favorite and respected reviewer employed by said magazine, a man that is way past his prime and his prime was not very high.
At least Benchmark gear is well-built. What about the badly assembled drek that ASR claims measures well but has little in the way of reliability? My highly modded Thorens TD124 and Garrard 301 don't stand up to the state of the art current era competitors' best but guess what? They will still be reproducing great music for my grandchildren.
If ASR were to be believed, hell, even if Stereophile's measurements were to be believed, tube amps would be reconciled to the dust bins of the universe and the garbage dump on Staten Island. Who has (had) better taste in home audio-John Atkinson or Art Dudley?
The argument about cables is too tired to be tolerated by anyone other than fools. You might as well argue about religion and it's bastard cousin-reproductive rights.
Here is an example where ASR may not adequately measure the component.
I at least would like to see an transient affect under load. The measurement was done all in frequency domain which only tests for steady state response.
I'd to see the two tests:
1. One if a frequency sweep and phase shift under load.
2. Two is a transient step response under load to see if there is excessive over or undershoot and rise/fall time retardation.
A lot of the cheap so called power surge protection it takes away the transient of the audio system. You can tell by listening the sound lacking vitality with the surge protector in the chain.
ASR provides a perspective, that’s all. It’s only one tool in your toolbox to evaluate a device. Not sure why some folks can’t see why the measurements matter in some cases, and not in others. If a company is promising high level performance on their product but the measurements clearly show that the device is not capable of doing what they claim, you can possibly save some money on the snake oil you almost bought. Audio as we know is not all about measurements or specs, but those specs and measurements in many cases can be an indicator of other things. I have a bunch of great gear that may not measure worth a crap.
ASR again? I wonder if many treads including this one were created purposely here by the ASR members. No value but to stir up the crowd for their entertainment.
I think it's worth taking a step back and asking: why is anyone triggered by the appearance of ASR discussions in the first place?
It seems to me to be a very odd reaction. Why should the letters "ASR" or discussions of that forum "stir up" anyone? That doesn't seem to be a mature reaction. Audiophiles aren't some monolith who all agree on everything and use precisely the same approach. There should be room for all sorts of approaches. If someone doesn't agree with something just add that opinion, no need to be "stirred up."
If you put more effort into listening to the gear than the music then why bother. A great sounding system should make you not even think about the gear, you just get wrapped up in the music .
ASR again? I wonder if many treads including this one were created purposely here by the ASR members. No value but to stir up the crowd for their entertainment.
Buying gear based on measurements is sure to yield a system with low noise and hopefully great dynamic range but in no way guarantees an engaging , musically satisfying system. Only careful matching through listening guarantees that.
So then, if we are not infallible, is the instrumentation and controlling for biases in listening tests infallible? Nope.
That's a strawman. It's not simply that our ears are infallible - it's the specific ways our perception is fallible. Instruments can both detect things we can not hear (or see), and also detect things we can hear, but more reliably. Nobody has to claim objective measurements are "infallible" in order to point out that they are in many ways more reliable (and more sensitive) than our hearing. Why do you think humans invent measurement tools in the first place? To extend beyond the power of our limited senses, as well as to gain more reliable results.
Our ears are the most objective tool we have...
It would hard to come up with a more "wrong" statement than that...
Again, you seem to be ignoring that our hearing isn't merely our "ears" but is ultimately an interpretive process via our brain.
Also: ever had your hearing tested? You will in all likelihood have variations in your frequency response, and of course your hearing will drop off well before you can hear what the tool is actually playing. Tools really can play, and detect, things your hearing can not.
Ultimately it’s what we hear that counts. The subjective experience. But since our ears are attached to a brain that interprets reality, they are not infallible and we can both not hear things that are there, and hear things that are not there. That’s why instrumentation can be valuable. (As can be controlling for biases in listening tests, when desired).
So then, if we are not infallible, is the instrumentation and controlling for biases in listening tests infallible? Nope.
Exactly. Also, many amplifiers that don’t measure well can sound great.
My two sets of amplifiers don’t measure well, and sound great.
Same here. My CJ tube amps don’t measure great but I defend their use on ASR quite often.
Like I said, any forum has things we agree or disagree with, so it’s up to the individual to find value. If you can sift some value, there’s no reason to toss the whole forum out as worthless. But if someone doesn’t find any value, obviously it’s not a forum for them.
Just remember, your ears are the most important measurement. I mean isn’t that what this hobby is all about?
ozzy
Well, yes and no.
Ultimately it’s what we hear that counts. The subjective experience. But since our ears are attached to a brain that interprets reality, they are not infallible and we can both not hear things that are there, and hear things that are not there. That’s why instrumentation can be valuable. (As can be controlling for biases in listening tests, when desired).
@profI agree they trash some gear that I personally think sounds great (for instance, Devore speakers which I love are disparaged usually on ASR).
Exactly. Also, many amplifiers that don’t measure well can sound great.
My two sets of amplifiers don’t measure well, and sound great. Two years ago I followed a tip there about a great measuring DAC. Bought it, tried it, boring, un-engaging, returned it. Went back to a less-than-perfect measuring DAC, got the music back. Why follow anyone who "trashes" great sounding equipment. Something else going on here. Follow the motives to learn more. The best designers also know how to use their ears in addition to measurements.
That's great Amir likes your preamp, but there is a lot of crap they love over on that site so to use it as a barometer for what sounds excellent is silly.
Nobdy has to uncritically swallow everything at ASR. Like any other forum you have to weed through things you disagree with or aren't interested in, to lift what is useful to you. Same here, right?
I agree they trash some gear that I personally think sounds great (for instance, Devore speakers which I love are disparaged usually on ASR).
As for Chi Fi, nothing wrong if they are offering excellent performance for the money. Unless one is xenophobic.
Amir again?
I wonder how many ASR threads there are out there?
A huge number - virtually every audiophile forum talks about Amir and ASR. Which shows the impact he has had on the current audiophile scene. The Golden Ears crowd tend to reflexively disparage his work, for obvious reasons, but a great many audiophiles appreciate it.
I have no problem defending what is good about ASR on forums like this. Whereas on ASR it's usually the opposite: I do plenty of defending the subjective reviewers, and subjective takes on gear, as well as forums like audiogon. I'm not a fan of dogmatism and close mindedness in any case.
That's great Amir likes your preamp, but there is a lot of crap they love over on that site so to use it as a barometer for what sounds excellent is silly. They trash some really nice gear and praise a lot of Chi Fi ......
Paying attention to objective investigations of various type of gear has been very useful, as have my own occasional blind tests, in saving me money and angst sometimes.
As for not hearing a difference in cables, you either don’t have a revealing system or you just can’t hear this kind of differences.
I own, and have owned, many highly detailed revealing speakers, from Audio Physic to MBL Radialstrahlers to Thiel flagships and currently Joseph Audio Perspective 2. My Benchmark DAC and Benchmark Preamp are measurably among the most transparent audio devices you can own.
I make my living using my ears in post production sound. Think you could subtly balance the sound of 30 tracks at a time while identifying the a tiniest artifacts that will be picked up by a mixer?
It’s not a job for people with poor hearing acuity for differences and details.
So..nah... :-)
Show me one paragraph where they praised it’s sound quality. I bet you can’t because they are all about numbers.
Sure. From Amir’s review of the Benchmark preamp/headphone amp (same as mine, but with headphone outputs):
Headphone Listening Test
As usual, I started my testing with the Sennheiser HD-650. You guys know that I like to test headphone amplifiers at high volumes. Even if it is for a second or two, I try to up the volume to max to see whether the headphone or the amplifier give out first. Not here. I was too scared to get even close to -10 dB let alone +15 dB range the HPA4 has! The sound had incredible authority with superb bass and fantastic detail. It is a revelation to have this much clean power on hand to drive a headphone.
Yes, ASR is about numbers.And I think its consistent testing has a place as a means of comparison. However, I get that it is not a resource that is for everyone.
Numbers don't explain everything we hear/sense. Some day maybe we will be able to measure what is currently unexplainable.
objective and subjective sources help me make informed decisions.
The Benchmark is a great piece that is everything it's advertised to be. Again, another product that's measurements approach the limits of testing. Show me one paragraph where they praised it's sound quality. I bet you can't because they are all about numbers.
Sometimes they measure what is a great product. The RME adi2 DAC was the darling of ASR until it's measurements were surpassed by some Chi Fi DAC which of course they loved. I have a RME and it's a good DAC , no doubt.
They would probably not give a favorable review on the DAC that replaced it, the excellent sounding LAB 12 DAC 1 Reference. Most of today's gear measures pretty good, at least beyond the limits of human hearing, with low noise and distortion. That's why ASR isn't doing you any favors. Do you like how a component sounds ? Then buy it. Don't let what some internet site that only cares about specs sway your decisions. My whole system is comprised of stuff they would and in some cases have ripped to shreds. Yet it sounds great.
ASR is terrible. I liked it when ASR tried to get back at Danny from GR Research, totally fubar’d that. That’s how bad asr is. ASR has tried to bad mouth other brands that I personally like/own that are highly rated from other reviewers.
As for not hearing a difference in cables, you either don’t have a revealing system or you just can’t hear this kind of differences. I’ll bet I have heard a difference in almost 99% of the time that I have done cable shoot outs/Evals at home. I have even heard differences at ces/rmaf shows and at dealers. I’m also not saying that the difference you hear is better or worse. For example, I prefer the cables I use over Nordost Valhalla and they are 1/2 the price, but I do hear a difference.
They aren't saving you money if you buy something based on specs and it sounds poor in your system.
I'm not aware of a single person on ASR who has reported such a problem.
@prof good luck with that. Don't say I didn't warn you.
I have a Benchmark LA4 that I bought partially due to ASR's review and I'm thrilled with it. Same with some cable recommendations.
For instance since I know some audiophiles who have expensive cables sometimes if I'm in a pinch I borrow from them. For a while I had interconnects costing over $4,500/pair in my system (and well reviewed). Double checking specs with the ASR folks I replaced them with $50 regular pro-grade cables.
There isn't an iota of sound/detail or anything missing in replacing those expensive cables. What a bummer if I thought I had to spend that type of money on cables....
So, thanks for the "warning" but I'll be ok ;-)
(BTW, I don't see eye-to-eye with ASR members on everything. I like gear many there wouldn't like. But, hey, people are different. ASR is a great source for information though).
They aren't saving you money if you buy something based on specs and it sounds poor in your system. They have also turned many people away from great sounding, well built products. Remember that.
Their videos are more informative than just about anything you'd find here (and I like this place). ASR videos have educated many people and have doubtless saved plenty of audiophiles wasting money on items that make little to no sonic differences.
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