AUDIO SCIENCE REVIEW and $50 to spend.........

@digitalviper 

Good luck with your life goals. Actually, I'd rather be on the side of science now than all the conjecture I've heard from others here on audiogon. All the best with building your dream audio system.

@jackhifiguy 

stay away from KNOWLEDGE i will not. why should I ???

that's fools gold if you ever heard it. i want real gold one day. when i can afford to buy a audio system with my OWN money and no support from my wife and her family.

cheers

1. I listen to large number of audio products in my reviews.  Every speaker, headphone, headphone amp and even audio tweaks like power, cables, etc. often get listening tests.

2. I perform null tests of cables with real music.

3. Measurements are provided in the context of audio engineering/science.  They are not just numbers.  Audibility is routinely assessed with psychoacoustics research which is entirely based on listening tests.

4. I am open minded enough to test anything sent to me regardless of how implausible it might be to sound different.  I tested three JPS labs cables last week for example.  And all three included listening tests.

5. I bring more information to that table than you had the day before.  You can use it to be better informed, or not.  You don't have to pay to see any of it.  Whether you donate or not, you get to see the same content.  Youtube channel likewise has zero advertising or sponsorship.

6. I have liked plenty of devices that don't measure well.  Wilson TuneTot ($12K) speaker was one example.  I am not afraid of going against the grain of objectivity when it is merited.

7. What we are doing is resonating with many.  For every one example of one of you saying a well measured product sounded cold to you, I can show you a dozen people who are amazed what money spent on things that didn't matter, or performed horrible.  Perso who had bought $30K worth of Chord products replaced it all with a Topping DAC for a fraction of it and is happier for it.  

8. We love listening tests.  We love them more than measurements.  If you want to prove something using your ears, do so where only your ears are involved and we will come with you 1000%. 

9. Major industry players read and participate in the forum.  For some it is daily reads as a way to keep tabs on what the rest of the industry is doing and to get more data about the products in the marketplace.  Major companies like Genelec, Neumann, Denon, TAD, etc. have sent and continue to send me products for review.  Yes, a lot of chinese companies do as well because they have done their homework to produce truly high fidelity products with vanishingly low distortion and noise, providing utmost transparency.  This way, we get to enjoy the music and not stress over whether the audio system itself is deficient. @amir_asr 

Thank you Amir !!!! SO MUCH KNOWLEDGE.

i am very happy that you posted this. since audiophiles here are all about mumbo jumbo. even my wife said so. we had a argument yesterday about my hobby and now we will NOT get divorced. You sir are a true professional. i read your website reviews --- audio science review a few times every week. You wrote about a amplifier in CLASS D that you said was excellent in some ways. It looks really nice too.

@ozzy 

buy USA bananas not from PERU or PHILLIPINES. if you need new bananas, go the grocery store. my god. talking about bananas on a audio website. unbelieveable. well thats my 2 cents for you....

There are something that is difficult to measure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0sANL6BamY

@amir_asr

Do have a few topics to cover though so will definitely post new ones, one way or the other.

Good to hear. I'd like to see you cover more headphones in future.

Particularly portable ones with or without Bluetooth.

@andy2

Hi Amir,

How would you propose we measure the LessLoss BlackGround 10x Power Base :-)?

Five ways:

1. Measure the sound waves coming out of different audio products. Contrary to their marketing attempts, we don’t listen to ground, power, etc. We listen to what comes out of our audio gear. If there is an effect against not using the tweak, it better show up somewhere across suite of measurements. Sometimes these products actually make the output worse so don’t assume that there is always no difference.

2. Perform a null test with music. Record the output of a DAC, amp, etc. twice. One with the thing in the loop and once without. Perform automatic analysis using Deltawave. If there is a difference, we can see if it is below threshold of noise. Otherwise, this ends the argument of "but how does it work with music."

3. Perform a blind test if we have to. I usually publish the files for #2 above and advocates of the device can listen and provide their outcomes using a proper ABX tool.

4. Perform engineering analysis of whether the claims made make sense and could possibly change circuit performance. For example, if I sold you red socks that would warm up the sound of your DAC, we both know that is not possible. We can perform the same analysis but now with engineering knowledge of design of audio gear.

5. Ask the company to back their claims with measurements, or controlled listening tests if they disagree with above. For example, the page above has this at the end: "The reason more and more BlackGrounds (and Blackbodies) are effective is that with every additional unit we are lowering and lowering this impedance path, so the results in terms of sonic purity are better and better as statistically less and less intermodulation occurs."

Well, we can easily measure intermodulation. We can also measure impedance. Let’s have them show the difference before and after on these measurement centric claims. We don’t need 100 different analogies as they have peppered in that page. Give the data to back that such effects exist. And then proof of sonic purity.

@ozzy

I have noticed there has not been any new ASR videos on the site for several months. What’s the deal? Banana rotten?

More like rotten software.  I use OBS for my videos. I recorded a near 1 hour tutorial on how to read DAC measurements.  Hit finish and realize it had only recorded 10 seconds of the video!  I check everything, record a sample and all works.  So I repeat my long tutorial again.  Hit finish and the same darn result!  Just a few seconds recorded. :( :( :(

I go and get Camtasia to try.  What awful product.  Terrible quality, no control over settings, and just unusable.  Not sure how this product has gotten so popular.  Anyway, by then it was 2 in the morning so I stopped in disgust.

Above was about two months ago.  Have not had time to go back and troubleshoot what happened all of a sudden with OBS.  Do have a few topics to cover though so will definitely post new ones, one way or the other.

amir_asr

I have noticed there has not been any new ASR videos on the site for several months. What’s the deal? Banana rotten?

ozzy

@digitalviper 

dude you need to stay away from ASR.

The fact of the matter is, Amir may be able to measure gear. And sure, that gear measures really well.

But does he ever ask why? - nope. 

ASR is a terrible source of info. All I need now is to un-become an audiophile.

@amir_asr 

You do not know everything about audio. You might believe you have it all figured out. But I'm sure folks on site could run circles around you in terms of knowledge and experience. Again, I find you rude and you always seem to get yourself in to trouble on forums. 

Some have already said that. Actually, I found so many sources online where people are mocking you.

@prof thank you for posting the video. I know it’s not gonna change anybody’s mind who hates ASR but it might leave a seed of doubt that may grow into a normal believer in science. The funniest thing is is that we wouldn’t have any of this equipment if it wasn’t for scientists and now a scientist like ASR is trying to warn us that we’re going off the rails and nobody believes him. All that ASR is trying to do is give you scientific fact to apply to your decision when buying audio equipment. Without guys like ASR the only music we would get the listen to would be live music. We owe all this technology and quality of sound reproduction to guys like ASR. All you guys can do is kick him in the shins because you don’t like the fact that Deep down deep inside you you do wonder if that power cord really makes a difference…..

Hi Amir,

How would you propose we measure the LessLoss BlackGround 10x Power Base :-)?

@oddiofyl 

Sometimes they measure what is a great product.   The RME adi2 DAC was the darling of ASR until it's measurements were surpassed by some Chi Fi DAC which of course they loved.

Who is "they?"  Countless people have RME DACs and love them with no intention to replace.  My own everyday DAC on my desktop is RME ADI-2 Pro.  It gets many hours of use per day and brings me much joy.  I have a stack of 120+ DACs which I could use but I use RME because I like its features in addition to its performance.

Really, if folks complaining about ASR actually spent some time there, they would know most of their criticism comes from the point of not knowing than facts.  Here are some of those facts:

1. I listen to large number of audio products in my reviews.  Every speaker, headphone, headphone amp and even audio tweaks like power, cables, etc. often get listening tests.

2. I perform null tests of cables with real music.

3. Measurements are provided in the context of audio engineering/science.  They are not just numbers.  Audibility is routinely assessed with psychoacoustics research which is entirely based on listening tests.

4. I am open minded enough to test anything sent to me regardless of how implausible it might be to sound different.  I tested three JPS labs cables last week for example.  And all three included listening tests.

5. I bring more information to that table than you had the day before.  You can use it to be better informed, or not.  You don't have to pay to see any of it.  Whether you donate or not, you get to see the same content.  Youtube channel likewise has zero advertising or sponsorship.

6. I have liked plenty of devices that don't measure well.  Wilson TuneTot ($12K) speaker was one example.  I am not afraid of going against the grain of objectivity when it is merited.

7. What we are doing is resonating with many.  For every one example of one of you saying a well measured product sounded cold to you, I can show you a dozen people who are amazed what money spent on things that didn't matter, or performed horrible.  Perso who had bought $30K worth of Chord products replaced it all with a Topping DAC for a fraction of it and is happier for it.  

8. We love listening tests.  We love them more than measurements.  If you want to prove something using your ears, do so where only your ears are involved and we will come with you 1000%. 

9. Major industry players read and participate in the forum.  For some it is daily reads as a way to keep tabs on what the rest of the industry is doing and to get more data about the products in the marketplace.  Major companies like Genelec, Neumann, Denon, TAD, etc. have sent and continue to send me products for review.  Yes, a lot of chinese companies do as well because they have done their homework to produce truly high fidelity products with vanishingly low distortion and noise, providing utmost transparency.  This way, we get to enjoy the music and not stress over whether the audio system itself is deficient.

@prof 

Well played!

@waytoomuchstuff 

I was still getting a little midrange glare from your syntax, but since I put my desktop monitor on Nordost isolation Kones, that's cleared up.  Thank goodness!

I love your sense of humor ... don't change a thing! Brevity is overrated ;-)

@prof @ozzy @dabel

Thanks for the nudge to move in the brevity direction.

As a direct result of your input, I taken the following actions:

Replaced the premium power cord on my iMac with the standard OEM. It has decreased the dynamics of my writing substantially, and hidden the bulk of the details. The lower noise floor has decreased my anxiety and lowered my urge to ramble on.

Bolaro has been shelved and replaced with Let’s Get Drunk and Screw on date night. Again, a highly effective remedy for shortening the duration of events.

It’s been life changing. I can’t thank you guys enough.

@waytoomuchstuff, 

Rub shoulders with and I’ll teach you brevity. Monologue is all I ask in return. 

:-) 

Ozzy,

I'm working on brevity.  It's a work in progress.

ozzy,

Short version:  Giving reasons justifying my approach is not an attack on yours, or a demand you should approach the hobby as I do (or anyone at ASR does).

You-do-you.

Short enough I hope? ;-)

^ Are they related?  Seem to enjoy posting.

Does the prof and waytoomuchstuff get paid by the printed word somehow?

ozzy

Here’s a fun fact … outstanding work @digitalviper, “The Master Puppeteer.”

:-) 

@waytoomuchstuff

Thanks.

I find that the blanket dismissal of the value of ASR by some here mirrors the dogmatic blanket dismissal by some on ASR of places like Audiogon. They are mirror images of the same heels-dug-in mindset.

I have tried Audioquest in my system...in fact I might have some in the system now! (I’ve borrowed various cables down the years I sometimes forget which is left in the system or not).

I once sold a pair of speakers I owned to a friend, an audio reviewer. From then I was able to hear those speakers at his place with very highly lauded cables of all sorts - literally up to $50,000 worth of top Nordost, Crystal cable etc. Did throwing all that cable money at them increase the sound quality? Not really that I could tell. I would hear all the same things when I played my reference tracks as I did at home with the cheaper cabling. And I DO listen for these details, I’m an inveterate audiophile after all.

A problem in these discussions is that many people take someone expressing a different opinion or approach as some personal attack on their own beliefs or approach. This is particularly true of people who are in the, for lack of better term "purely subjective" or "golden ears" camp, in which they privilege their personal perception above all other means of evaluating gear. If someone else explains why they prefer measurements or even controlled listening tests, it will necessarily arise from skepticism about relying on human perception alone. And then the subjectivist/golden ears takes that as absurd, even a personal attack: "How can someone tell me I don’t necessarily hear what I KNOW I hear." And then this brings forth lots of insults and ad hominem attacks.

I’ve tried to emphasize over and over that giving reasons why the fact I have my approach - my areas of skepticism - doesn't entail I'm telling others to have the same approach. That we all get to practice the hobby as we want, and that’s how it should be!

Even though I have done blind testing out of curiosity a number of times, I am not a scientist and couldn’t...and wouldn’t even want to...attempt formal experimentation on every audio choice I make.

For instance, I own Conrad Johnson Premier 12 tube monoblocks. I bought a second pair to try out, ones that had been upgraded with the Teflon Caps that many CJ owners seem to rave about. I spent many months going back and forth between them. I seemed to hear certain distinct differences, among them for the upgraded CJs a smoother sound, a "blacker background" in the sense of tonal balance and the impression of finer rendering of ambience/reverb etc. And better bass control. Now, on the ASR forum that would be met mostly with skepticism.

So while I might in fact mention it on the ASR forum, I would be more inclined to come here or other forums to go through my impressions and exchange notes, where people are more open to the idea. The same goes for things like tube rolling.

The thing is, I understand the skepticism held by some at ASR over such a claim, and understand why they would prefer much better evidence, e.g. measurable changes or blind tested, over just my anecdotal impressions. So...I wouldn’t make any such claims there like "I KNOW what I hear and anyone being skeptical is just a dogmatist or cloth eared."

So for the same reason I do not hold myself to some personal standard where everything I choose has to be on the basis of the most rigorous evidence, I don’t propose anyone else has to either. We can be as consistent, or inconsistent as we want.

It all changes, though, when it comes to actually making claims, or defending claims about audio gear. If I said "look, I KNOW from listening that changing caps in amps altered the sound in the way I describe" well, that’s a claim I’ve made and it’s game on for anyone to ask me what justifications I have, and to express why they are skeptical. No problemo.

And that’s the thing. "Objectivists" will make claims about what is measurable or audible. Fine. But "Subjectivists" will often make just as strong claims "I KNOW cables make a difference and anyone who can’t hear these things must use Chi-Fi gear or be deaf." Not very fruitful for exchanging views.

Cheers!

The inescapable logic is that WHATEVER details you hear on those recordings through your new cables, the ORIGINAL NON-AUDIOPHILE CABLES WERE SUFFICIENT TO TRANSMIT.  Otherwise...there wouldn't be that detail there to hear in the first place.

There is so much wrong in this statement. 

@digitalviper:

See a lawyer for free consultation.

You could also run your request by the minions at ASR and see what they suggest. I can’t recommend them highly enough for those who want to buy cheap junk under 100 bucks with no domestic warranty.

@prof

I enjoyed reading your well-founded comments and considerations.

While I am a strong advocate of premium cables (I didn’t just drink the KoolAide, I chugged the entire pitcher), I can support your argument that highly satisfying musical results can be achieved with "good quality" cables. If all the stars line up -- excellent gear, well-recorded sources, correctly designed acoustical treatments, etc., the results can be quite impressive -- even to "audiophile" ears. Would certainly beat expensive cables in a small and reflective room.

Coming from the perspective of speaker designer/nerd and one who is currently involved in audio performance upgrades, I’ve come to identify a couple of performance factors: Errors of commission. And, errors of ommission. The first involves the phenomena where something in the audio chain is generating sounds that shouldn’t be there. This can be sutle to sledgehammer, but usually audible (and, measurable). The second is simply where a component acts as a "filter" where certain sounds, as well as spacial queques, etc are attenuated, or missing all together. In this sense, it’s possible to introduce a component in the audio stream that "doesn’t sound bad" but merely missing information. In many cases, the listener is not aware what is missing, because there is no reference. I would inject here, that the "right" premium cables WILL provide an additional level of detail and transparency to your system.

I understand your position with Nordost. They do some things well, but not everything. If your opinion of "high end" cables is with this reference, I’d suggest you try something else. Audioquest has never let me down. fyi- my first experience with pizza was one my dad made with Limberger cheese. I thought ALL pizza smelled and tasted like this. It took, me years to give pizza another try. Now, it its a weekly staple to our "diet."

If I recall correctly, I believe it was Geffen who rewired their studio with "audiophile-grade" cables and made something of a big deal about it.

I’ve wondered for years: "If Dark Side of the Moon was recorded in a studio using audiophile cables, would the enhancement in sound quality result in more, or less, mood-altering drugs being used to enjoy it?"

A lot of mental confetti being tossed around here.

Valentines Day.  Zip ties.

Nah, not going to go there.

"Their videos are more informative than just about anything you'd find here (and I like this place).   ASR videos have educated many people and have doubtless saved plenty of audiophiles wasting money on items that make little to no sonic differences."
I could not agree any less with this statement. The site consists of jokers who actually know very little and misuse measurements. It is a complete waste of time.

Their videos are more informative than just about anything you'd find here (and I like this place)

prof

... if someone were familiar with lots of my stuff on audiogon as well as on ASR, they would understand why I’m here ..

I’ll take you at your word because I don’t read ASR for the reasons I’ve explained. And of course you’re as welcome as anyone to participate here. You’re smart enough to know that this isn’t the place to demand "proof" from others, so why not just accept that?

cleeds,

I can understand why someone might think that from what I just wrote.  But if someone were familiar with lots of my stuff on audiogon as well as on ASR, they would understand why I'm here.

I really enjoy discussing the subjective nature of the hobby.  The end result of all of this is "How Does It Sound?"  I have found many subjective reviews and reports by audiophiles on gear both entertaining and useful, and I try to be useful to some degree for others when I've heard gear they may be interested in.

While I appreciate the approach over on ASR quite a lot, I also can find it gets a bit dry.  It's not that ASR members don't love music as much as anyone here, or don't care about listening or the subjective aspect.  But they tend to be wary of putting sound in to language - which goes along with their suspicion of subjective reviewing being little more than unreliable, fanciful poetry.  I disagree heavily with them on that. 

Here, people appreciate sharing subjective experience with equipment, so I get that aspect satisfied here.  When I want a more rigorous look in to audio claims, I"ll tend to go to ASR for that.

This is why I'm always saying I don't want to tell any audiophile how he/she should approach the hobby.   Some are far in to the "listening/subjectivity only" camp, some far in to the "measurements or it didn't happen" camp, and many of us span the gamut in between.

prof

... There are good reasons to be skeptical of their claims, and...for some of the reasons I’ve given...want stronger evidence than the usual "I heard it!" anecdotes ...

That’s fine that you have a desire for such evidence. Perhaps you should seek it from a scientific forum or, perhaps, at least one that claims to be "scientific." You don’t seem to be happy with what you're getting here, which is a hobbyist’s group.

If someone is producing an argument in defense of their belief that doesn't make sense, then it's reasonable to be skeptical.  And if they are also using a method known to be fallible in evaluating their own claim, that's double reason to be skeptical and want better arguments and evidence.

So for instance, in another thread Andy2 claimed that SS amps "always have a haze" over the sound.

Yet: most of the music audiophiles listen to, no doubt including Andy2, used solid state equipment/amplification in it's production.  Yet nobody, including Andy2, reports a "haze" over all these recordings.  The sheer internal logical contradiction shows this type of claim can not be true. He has clearly made an error somewhere in his reasoning.

Bolstering an already bad argument with personal anecdotes "I heard a haze with SS amps" hardly suffices to resolve that internal contradiction.   And it relies on a form of anecdote we know to be open to bias and fallibility.

In regard to high end audio cables, there are similar red flags.

Audiophiles will get some new expensive high end audio cable and go on about all the new sonic information being revealed by these cables.  This is supposed to justify the heroic, and expensive, efforts the cable maker went to creating cables that can "reveal" such sonic information.

But the internal contradiction arises:   MOST of the recordings that audiophiles cream themselves over with their new cables were made using bog-standard studio grade cables...tons and tons of them.  The inescapable logic is that WHATEVER details you hear on those recordings through your new cables, the ORIGINAL NON-AUDIOPHILE CABLES WERE SUFFICIENT TO TRANSMIT.  Otherwise...there wouldn't be that detail there to hear in the first place.

It therefore makes little sense to say you "have to" go to the lengths many of these cable manufacturers claim in order to pass through or preserve such subtle sonic detail - non-audiophile cables were already perfectly capable of doing so.

And this is what most electrical and sound engineers have understood.  It's why most of them understand they don't need audiophile cables in creating recordings.

Standard electrical theory suggests this.  Practice suggests this.  Logical reasoning like the above suggests this.

Are there SOME recording studios that go in for audiophile cabling?  Yes, you can find some engineers who buy in to this idea.  What's typically lacking is any rigorous evidence their beliefs are justified - either measurements or controlled listening tests.

So...am I open to audiophile cables making sonic differences?   Yes.  For one thing it is a fact that cables CAN, in the right conditions, audibly affect the sound (for instance too small awg for long runs, resistance/impedance/capacitance mismatches etc).   But does that justify all the claims made by audiophile cable companies?  Of course not.  There are good reasons to be skeptical of their claims, and...for some of the reasons I've given...want stronger evidence than the usual "I heard it!" anecdotes.

Nobody HAS to be skeptical.  You can do and buy whatever you want.  But if you want to disparage someone for being skeptical, please don't just pretend there aren't good reasons for skepticism.  As if it's only just a case of someone being "close minded."   If you care to JUSTIFY your criticism...do so...explaining for instance why some of the arguments above are faulty. 

I think it's prof vs. God.  

I have no problem with that debate either.  This isn't the forum, though ;-)

God created all these different cables but somehow they all sound the same according to prof.  What a waste of resources.

Raising strawmen characterizations are always a waste.  Why do you bother? 

I think it's prof vs. God.  

God created all these different cables but somehow they all sound the same according to prof.  What a waste of resources.

prof,

There are many levels of Nordost cables. I have tried most, but don’t prefer their sound. A little too thin for me. How about you? If you agree, then you believe that cables do matter...

Anyway, enough of this, I feel like our conversation takes me back through a time warp and what I believed 50 years ago.

Enjoy the hobby!

ozzy

ozzy,

Ok.

(I've tried 'quality cables,' nordost among them, and there is clearly nothing 'amis' with my system, as other audiophiles who have heard it know).

I am no more pushing ASR on you, than you are pushing your view on me.

We are exchanging opinions, and the reasons we hold them.

prof,

I didn’t read all of your long replies. But when I read or hear someone spouting about how cables don’t matter it is usually from someone who has a very, let’s just say, a starter system.

The components you have listed however should be good enough to appreciate the benefits of upgraded cables. So that is a question.

So, either you have not tried quality cables, or something is amiss in your set up. But I guess if your happy with what you got, enjoy it.

Just don’t push the ASR crap on me. Sound quality matters not measurements.

ozzy

ozzy,

If I found the sound of my system to be just as good with the cheap cables, why wouldn't I be happy I didn't need to spend extra money on the expensive ones?

And...Why are you ignoring this:

prof: As to cables: I always try to be careful not to make some broad claim based on my personal experience. So for instance I blind tested Shunyata cables against off the shelf cheap AC cables. Thought I heard a difference sighted listening. Couldn’t tell them apart under blinded conditions. Do I therefore say "my own blind test proves AC cables don’t make any sonic difference?" Of course not. No person familiar with the scientific method should make that mistake. Rather, it’s useful for my own purposes, and if someone else cares to use my report as a data point in their own

view, that’s up to them.

Likewise regarding any cables. I don’t propose that not hearing cable differences in my system, or anywhere else, means "no cables make sonic differences." I AM however, I think, rightly skeptical based on the nature of claims made about cables - many of which people knowledgeable in electronics theory point out as highly suspicious - and the nature of how those claims generally are made (audiophiles claiming to hear differences, when I know both from science, and from personal experience, how our perception can be fooled). So I wait for stronger evidence.

Note though, that if many here think that they are seeing an "objectivist" suggest from their blind test that cables don’t make a sonic difference, they will leap on the objectivist for illegitimately drawing such general conclusions from their experience.

And yet all the time we see people here saying "Cables make a difference! I know that because I’ve done the tests in my own system!" But these generalizations are immediately glossed over because, well, that’s the going bias in forums like this.

Are you looking to understand my view...or just look for gotchas?

ozzy,

Ok, you still won't explain how my equipment helps explain why I have the view you think I have.

This happens literally every time I get the demand "list your system!"  If I report being skeptical of cable differences the response from at least some is always "either your hearing isn't good enough or your system isn't good enough to hear the differences other people OBVIOUSLY hear."

And when I list my system it always goes to radio silence....because I've owned plenty of great gear.   In fact I recently had my friend over, an audio reviewer, to listen to my Joseph speakers which recently arrived from being upgraded to the "graphene 2" version.  I've dialed them in very nicely - the detail, transparency, soundstaging, imaging...is just wild.  My reviewer pal was totally blown away, like in shock, shaking his head saying "how did you DO this?"    To put that in context, he has been reviewing since the late 90's or so, currently he's got in $65,000 Estelon speakers for review, hooked up to tens of thousands of dollars worth of Nordost and other high end cabling, conditioning etc.   Yet my system....using "mere" belden speaker cabling and mostly cheap interconnects blew him away.  Which didn't surprise me because I get to hear extremely expensive systems all the time, and I know how mine competes.

So any implication that my system isn't worthy of hearing sonic differences betweeen cables is barking up the wrong tree.  (And audiophiles with far less capable systems claim to hear cable differences, so it can't just be a You Need An Incredible Most People Can't Afford system to hear cable differences).

So I presume the fact you know my equipment is good stuff is why you've avoided directly answering my question.   Until you answer my question, it's fair to presume that my equipment list does not, in fact,  help justify your (mis) understanding of my position at all.

You have tried this or that and you conclude they don't matter. Sort of like the Audio Science guy. Measurements are everything. 

I have been significantly more nuanced in my conclusions.  That's why I bothered explaining them in the first place.  You can either engage with what I write...or ignore it but then we are just left with strawmen, which never helps any conversation.

prof,

It’s not a conclusion just an understanding.

Look back at what you have already posted early on in this thread. You have tried this or that and you conclude they don’t matter. Sort of like the Audio Science guy. .

Here is what YOU wrote:

"For instance since I know some audiophiles who have expensive cables sometimes if I’m in a pinch I borrow from them. For a while I had interconnects costing over $4,500/pair in my system (and well reviewed). Double checking specs with the ASR folks I replaced them with $50 regular pro-grade cables.

There isn’t an iota of sound/detail or anything missing in replacing those expensive cables. What a bummer if I thought I had to spend that type of money on cables...."

How open minded is that? Have you tried ALL cables? What about room acoustics, or even your own hearing?

Well, I think the measurements may be a starting point, but not the only critera. Measures good, sounds bad?

ozzy

@ozzy

Why are you avoiding the question? You are now referencing my previous comments, but not my equipment list. My question concerned what you wrote.

You asked me to list my equipment. When asks why, you told me that my equipment list helps you understand why I am (to use your incorrect characterization) " so negative on the benefits of equipment upgrades. And why you are so close minded about listening vs measurement tests."

So...please...explain HOW my equipment list helped you reach that conclusion.

That’s what you wrote. I’m asking for you to explain.

What’s in my equipment list that supports your conclusion?

Are you avoiding this question because it turns out I don't listen exclusively via cheap "Chi Fi" gear? ;-)

prof,

I'm only going by your total comments thus far in these forums.

ozzy

@ozzy 

Well, since I went to the trouble of listing my equipment at your request:

Can you explain how my equipment list "helped you understand" that?

(And your conclusion is, unfortunately, a misrepresentation anyway of my view.  Look again at what I wrote to fsonicsmith1.  It's easy to throw out the label "close minded" but can you find anything actually 'close minded' or unreasonable in what I wrote?).

Thanks. It helps me understand why you are so negative on the benefits of equipment upgrades. And why you are so close minded about listening vs measurement tests.

Please no long-winded reply. Can you keep it pithy?

ozzy

ozzy,

Is that the usual "let’s see if you have a resolving enough system" request ?:-)

Speakers:

Thiel 2.7

Joseph Audio Perspective Graphene 2

(Other speakers I’ve used include MBL Radialstrahler, a variety of Audio Physic speakers, Von Schweikert, Waveform, Hales Transcendence, Quads, and many more).

Pre-amps: Conrad Johnson Premier 16LS2 and a Benchmark LA4

Amps: Conrad Johnson Premier 12 monoblocks (as well as various other tube and solid state amps through the years).

Sources:

DIGITAL: Bluesound NODE streaming to a Benchmark DAC2L

VINYL: Transrotor Fat Bob S turntable, acoustic solid arm, Benz Micro Ebony L cartridge

JL Audio HP10 phono stage.

...why do you ask?

prof,

Can you post your system?

ozzy

@whipsaw 

Much appreciated.

Unfortunately this is a type of discussion, like abortion, religion, politics, where many have dug their heals in and are easily triggered by an opposing view.  The reaction is to get emotional and defensive and ad hominem sometimes, rather than just address the arguments.

I find it remarkable that some posters are incapable of taking @prof  seriously. His views are well-founded, typically well articulated, and as balanced as anyone's could be, especially on contentious topics. He also has relevant professional experience. 

Feel free to argue the substance of his posts, but ad hominem attacks reveal much more about the poster, than the intended target.

I find many of the ASR measurements interesting and useful to a point.  In no way do measurements tell the entire story.  Amir has documented his personal system audio costing in the 6 figure ball park. He and the faithful followers regularly berate anyone spending anywhere near that level as an audiophool taken in by snake oil.  

A very recent review of an active speaker ($10K per pair) heaped glowing praise.  Amir drove a single sample to ear splitting levels and found no problems.  Almost all the measurements were quite good.  However, the waterfall graph showed numerous resonances, yet Amir loved the sound quality.  So, were the resonances not audible or did they contribute to a sound quality Amir liked?