Audio nonsense
In this wonderful world of audio that we journey through folks selling stuff have sometimes been inventive in what they claim. In your trip down this road what sticks out as the most ludicrous thing you’ve seen someone try to sell?
I can point to 2 things. When I first saw a Tice clock in a store I thought it was a gag. Next- Peter Belt.
@dill , Long term evaluation is not the key. You accommodate to what you are listening too. It becomes your normal even if it is horrendously out of wack. Most audiophiles have absolutely no idea what they are listening to. They have never measured their systems and rooms thinking they can take the CHEAP way out and do it by ear. A/B comparisons are anything but quick. Depending on the setup it takes hours to do one correctly. |
I think most of us know the sound of our systems and notice changes when something is changed in the system for better or worse. That said, my system sounds different to me depending on the time of day (cleaner power coming in from the grid?) or just depending on the day. Are my ears a little fatigued? Am I a little distracted and not tuned-in enough so to speak? Is my wife running more electric appliances that usually are not running? My house has two refrigerators and an upright freezer. In fact, my whole house is electric. A/C, Heat pump, pool pump, everything. I know when the electric dryer is on when listening to my system. I have separate breakers and lines for my equipment but still think I'm getting contamination(?) from these appliances running at certain times of the day. Has my system had plenty of time to warm up? I spent good money on my equipment and room. Not to mention time and effort to get the best I can out of it. If I need magic gemstones on my $400 dollar cables then I probably bought the wrong cables. My point being is that my system doesn't always sound at it's best to my ears and I doubt adding some tiny discs to my already good cables are going to make a difference. Maybe, maybe not. But, I think I'll put my money someplace better spent like more music or towards an equipment upgrade or even more room treatments. Or, try getting better/cleaner power to my system. |
" @dill , Long term evaluation is not the key. You accommodate to what you are listening too. It becomes your normal even if it is horrendously out of wack. Most audiophiles have absolutely no idea what they are listening to. They have never measured their systems and rooms thinking they can take the CHEAP way out and do it by ear." - Your assumptions are frankly, quite arrogant. Your measured system sounds good to you. My system put together by ear sounds good to me. Now, using your logic, my tweaked & unmeasured system would not sound good to you since we don't know how it will measure. Do I have that right? Since it is impossible for you to measure many, so called tweaks, they are dismissed and considered as insignificant. Your measured system has to sound good right? You are happy with your system and I am with mine. Good for us both. Why are you so nasty about it?
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The most arrogant people here, insulting every one are the so called self appointed "scientists", an audiophile species i dont like at all.... I dont like "tweaks" sellers either....Not because they never work, they work often, but the explanation by the sellers are like the alleged claims of the pseudo "scientists" here, meaningless, the same pseudo-scientist who does not dare to create their own listening experiments but vouch by blind test in any room save their own.......NON SENSICAL rethoric... I will listen music instead of reading idiots, subjectivist or objectivists, on my 500 bucks system mechanically. electrically, and acoustically controlled at NO COST.... I like to be alone.....
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Thanks @mijostyn |
Sound experience means something in some room for someone... Change the room and you can prove anything.....The differrent devices has NO Sound of their own which stay the same in different room.... Blind tester audiophiles are deluded like people who vouch blindly for a piece of gear INSTEAD of acoustic embeddings controls... That is my experience.... There is no objectivist nor subjectivist in acoustic protocol experiments....Subjectivity is CORRELATED with objective measures ALWAYS...Subjectivity is not ERASED by objective measure save for idiots...Idiot dont study acoustic with their EARS anyway....They trust a limited tool like other buy costly "tweaks" or branded name of costly gear... Acoustic is the only key in audio.... |
I never speak of anyone.... If the hat fit keep it....Objectivist like you or subjectivist like the one you attack without rest it seems, are for me pure complete lunatics disctinction.... Or read Helmholtz genius understanding of room acoustic BASIC tuning.... And forget about blind test by the way if you want to tune your room... Simplistic mind like binary disctinctions....
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I guess most people are STILL.... missing the point :-) Nobody is criticizing the sound you listen to and like. It may be full of distortion, artifacts or perfect. If you LIKE listening to it, good for you. Nobody cares. Love of sound is subjective. What is untrue however is when people claim that these snake oil products make a DIFFERENCE in the SAME product that they listen to. Like fuses and ethernet wires or cable lifters. If you had a compliant Ethernet wire to begin with, there will be NO difference in what you hear, nada, zero, zilch. Someone before gave an example of a capacitor change in a crossover. That WILL make a difference. Because capacitors are NOT snake oil products. We are talking about snake oil products ONLY. Please go back and read the posts... CAREFULLY. Thank you all :-)
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In my experience everything, every added materials make a difference... Sometimes positive sometimes not... Sometimes the positive difference was an illusion for sure... But the only way in audio is embeddings mechanical, electrical and acoustical controls... Upgrade by gear or tweaks or blind tests are for ignorant or very rich people with money speaking... I dont need money, my brain is enough to read acoustic articles... You dont tune a room with Tweaks or blind tests....
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@dill Yes. Please send me your list and I will categorize them for you with even an "oilyness factor" number. After all, it is not brain surgery, very simple and logical. |
You are insufferable. At what point did you stop being curious? At what point did you acquire enough (or any) knowledge and settle? And you know what settlement is, right? The garbage that falls to the bottom. At what point were you anointed the great savior? And at what point are you going to stop clinging to your own limitations and try so desperately to try to convince others to stop seeking knowledge and in doing so, surpass yours? You didn’t answer my question. Did you build your gear like Lego, or did you listen, adjust and modify? We’re you open minded and willing to try and fail, or were you only capable of following the map? You seem like a map kind of guy. Thank goodness you are gracing us, albeit reluctantly according to you, with your great presence here on the snake oil forum. Your relentless effort to free us all from our misguided notions of what does and does not sound good has not gone unnoticed. You have freed us from the chains that bind, you job is done and you may return to whatever the place is you came from… In the meantime, stop telling me what I am or am not capable of hearing and why, or why not, I am hearing it. I will try things for myself and reserve judgement as to its effectiveness based on my findings. And you, can cling to your preconceived notions about what may or may not work and remain at your limits be they self imposed or perhaps the limits nature provided you.
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Aren’t you late for that book burning, would hate for you to miss it… How about this, how about you provide us with a complete thesis, using your own words - no copy and paste allowed - on the finer and more detailed points on neuroscience, sensory input and the interactions that occur between the upper, mid and reptilian parts of our brains. I would love to see what you actually know, and see if you might be able to help me remember bits I may have forgotten. Please help to edjumacate us, oh wise one… And while you’re at it, how about supplying a list of tweaks that are not snake oil as well as a list of those that are. Oh, and outline what are items you have actually listened to, and what you are mearly speculating on, arriving at preconceived notions based on your obvious vast history and knowledge. The thing about being closed minded, is it maintains a status quo. And a status quo is safe. Safe, is a place where people hide. Safe, is a place where they don’t need to let other beliefs or others in. There is no need for an open mind in this safe place, indeed an open mind threatens the very foundation of the safe place. Those who stick to safe have rarely, if ever, stepped outside of their own postal or zip code. Unless of course, to attend a book burning.
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"@dill Yes. Please send me your list and I will categorize them for you with even an "oilyness factor" number. After all, it is not brain surgery, very simple and logical." Why, there is no need as you have that all that figured out. Well, it has to be "simple and logical" otherwise you wouldn't consider it. |
This post is targeted to the group I fondly refer to as "Bumble Bees". You may recall the comment somewhere along the way that given what we know about science and math, an Aeronautical Engineer would have to conclude that Bumble Bees can't fly. All the data suggests that there's not sufficient lifting force in those tiny wings to overcome the mass of the typical Bumble Bee. The problem is, of course, that we've all seen Bumble Bees fly. This problem is compounded by the fact that when confronting the Aeronautical Engineer, we would handily loose the debate based on our limited knowledge of the technical aspects vs the guy/gal with a pretty strong pedigree in science. However persistent and insistent we are that our observations (and those of others) are correct, the engineer remains unconvinced. But, our level of confidence is at the 99.997% threshold in our observations. Similar to to having a deer crash thru your windshield, embedding its carcass in your passenger's seat, then having your "really smart" neighbor try to convince you that there's no way it could have happened and you should go in for counciling. So, charge on Bumble Bees!! Trying using some snake oil to lubricate those slide rules? I heard it will get you to a (predefined) conclusion much faster. |
Yeah sure. Myths... https://www.animal-dynamics.com/ad-blog/the-bumblebee-flight-myth |
Steady on @cakyol , at this rate Teddy No3 will be demanding to see happy snaps of your home system 😄 |
Thank you, djone51, for repeating some the facts I've mentioned*, on this site and it's pages, regarding Science and how is always catching up, with the multitude of phenomena, so often observed, but- frequently: unexplained/inexplicable, by yesterday's Science and/or measurement methodologies. Having used the Bumblebees' flight, a few times, regarding that topic (Science); it was nice to see someone else bring up *those facts for confirmation, as to why our current understanding of the various, mysterious things many of us have actually encountered/heard, in our homes/rooms and systems, with our own ears and cognition, might easily go unexplained. ie: from 2014: There are a couple others, I could cite, but, 'nuff said!: Once again: thanks! |
So given that this is incorrect and maths and science can explain why bees can fly (a fact that was never questioned by anybody), what broader implications does this have for any conclusions that were sought to be relied upon? That neighbours aren't very smart?
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@waytoomuchstuff , et al. I find it interesting how the debates on these forums typically depreciate into labeling, name-calling, and assigning sides between believers vs. naysayers, with no in-between. I assume there are others here like me who do in fact hear differences between components, speakers, support systems, cables, tubes, and more. It’s not that I don’t recognize that certain things can make a sonic difference, and it’s not that I don’t have an open mind to what I hear in my own system, and it’s not that I have never tried many different cables, small boxes, outlets, and other stuff including fuses by SR. Its also not that I have a poor sounding system or shitty hearing. However, I (and I assume others) believe that the effect of some things is just too miniscule in the big scheme of everything that goes into an electronic sound reproduction system to actually be reliably heard, much less create "game-changing" improvements. To the OP’s point, the prices that some of this stuff is being sold for are "ludicrous." I probably have a few of those "gemstones" around from when my daughter and her friends used to play dress-up - maybe cost all of 0.25 cents. Just this week, I auditioned the Hattor Tube Active Stage. It sounded pretty darn good. I tried it with the supplied Jan-Phillips tubes and some new Mullard tubes - both good but slightly different - I heard the difference. The TAS is a really good sounding buffer, but it didn’t quite achieve the level of sonic performance IMO that I get from my SMc Audio TLC-1 buffer, which at around $6K or so is at least 3x the price of the TAS. My point is that both my system and my ears are good enough to hear subtle differences that some things make. I can hear the differences between my individually insulated solid core OCC Harmonic Tech speaker cables, vs. my Furutech FS-Alpha stranded OCC speaker cables, vs. my DIY WE 7awg tinned copper speaker cables - they all sound good yet different. Same with ICs, servers, DACs, and speakers for sure. When it comes to digital boxes like my Bonn N8 switch, 45 feet of fiber vs. CAT8, and the Network Acoustics ENO I received a week ago, the results/differences are so subtle (if at all) that I suspect my judgement may be unreliable. Same with the six Shakti Stones and the Quiet Line and Enacom AC filters I own and use in my system. Like a lot of this stuff, I bought it because reviewers and posters said it improves the sound, and because I wanted every possible improvement for my system, but I seriously doubt I could reliably hear whether the stuff is in my system or not. However, I do believe I more reliably hear improvements from the brass damping discs I use on most of my equipment, the springs I use to decouple/support my speakers, and the SRA platforms under my amps, but maybe I am dreaming when it comes to that stuff too. I have been improving my system for a long time but to believe that somebody can accurately predict the presence of a small wafer sitting on a cable, and that the wafer can dramatically improve their system, is beyond what I can get my head around based on what I have heard, and not heard, in my system. Some folks talk about this stuff as if their systems are totally transformed each time they introduce a new dongle, disc, or doodad. But hey, why wouldn’t they believe that, the advertisers tell them it’s going to happen...
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MASSIVE leap forward - from a fuse?! How many times can a system be totally transformed? How can the sound of cable changes be subtle and yet doodads, stick-ons, small pieces of wood, and fuses can have a "massive" impact on the sound? Manufacturers are making a huge per-unit profit off of this stuff and based on what I have heard, in my own system, I can’t help believing that (at least in some cases) they are selling a puff of hope instead of a product that provides a tangible improvement to the level advertised. @jimob discussed the Duelund -Mundorf Ultra Audio purifiers earlier in this thread, saying:
In fact, the Ultra Audio Purifier is simply a Zobel network - a capacitor and resistor connected in series across the binding posts ($80 in good quality parts). It affects the electrical properties of the amplifier/speaker interface making the impedance a loudspeaker presents to the amplifier output appear as a steady resistance. It could improve the sound of some amplifier/speaker combinations, but is probably not necessary in most. To imply that it is "purifying" and "cleaning" the audio signal seems to me like another example of marketing hyperbole for the purpose of selling yet another dongle that audiophiles must have. Hey, I don’t care what people say they hear, or how they spend their money, or how manufacturers make a buck, but it sure would be nice if posters on these forums stated their cases and examples and moved on rather than labeling and name-calling, lumping everyone here into one side or another, and pitting them against each other. A while ago, I answered one of Geoff Kait’s questions correctly and he sent me some small tiles with copper foil on them. I just sat them on top of the power cables that feed my monoblocks and hey, guess what...MASSIVE improvement! Veils were lifted, fog cleared, trumpets sounded, and I was transmorphed to an audiophile utopia where there were no standing waves, RFI, or hissing tweeters - everything was clean and flat with excellent tone and dynamics. You gotta try these... |
@mitch2 POTD by some way 😀 |
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"A neighbor on one side has a den with Tiffany lamps" Difference being, if they where real Tiffany Lamps, verses Tiffany style lamps they would be worth a fortune. "A neighbor on the other side has a den with overhead fluorescent lighting." Not so much and one would be much happier than the other ... |
Earlier in the post I referred to intellectual humility, and how items and/or technology that I thought were bogus, when finally given a fair audition, took me by surprise and became solid performers in mine (and other) systems. It seems that some fail to acknowledge that there may be a gap in their knowledge base and there may be something to learn. Perhaps even from others. This is all fine and good until they invalidate the reality and perception of others in the most stingent terms. The absoluteness of their belief systems are a bit stunning at times. Particularly when you see them mock and ridicule both the product and the consumer when those product categories have become wildly successful while offering extremely high performance/cost value to the end user in many cases. The "Bumble Bee" ignores the observations of others and adheres to the disciplines that have served them well even when those disciplines betray the most basic simple real life obervations shared by a vast number of qualified participants. Unfortunately, it does take the fun out of a hobby. Especially amoung those who are very happy with their choices. I'd also like to formally acknowedge the presence of "creative marketing" and existence of devices that are, for lack of a better word, fraudelent. This forum may be a good source to flush out the pretenders from legitimate products. I would feel more comfortable if we approach these in a case-by-case basis and invite the group to post comments, both positive and negative about their experiences with the items, rather than preclassify the item as "nonsense" before the discussion begins. Well done. It appears that your "antenna" is very sensitive and your perceptions are right on.
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...applies to too much of human experience, stitched into the DNA , and never fails to ruin get-togethers' of all sorts... Tempests' in teapots are happening everywhere all the time; all one needs to do is turn down the heat of the stove. ...and then the mind that interprets the neural energy from the ears, annnnd that whole ball of mush coughs a response.... "Sounds' good, But...." To wit: "It's a wonder we can feed ourselves...." ( Thanks, Bob...) The only day I expect that we will finally agree upon One Given Thing... ...is the day the comet is just about to cash the planetary ticket. "We're all righteously screwed!" Yup. Now....about that Black Sabbath LP.... |
@pesky_wabbit oh man! A little deep in the thread, but I LOVED my portable Sony Minidisc. Still have it as a matter of fact! Great little unit, excellent sound as well! It’s one of those dinosaur era gadgets that will be in my keepsakes as long as I exist. Now, I just may go break that thing out and try it with some REAL headphones! Regarding the post as a whole, I think there are a ton of products out there that are pure money grabs. It just is what it is. |
Subscribing to known and accepted maths and physics that have accumulated over the history of human thought is not a belief system. While this goes back millennia, I do note that it was as recently as 976 AD that the concept of zero was used by a Persian chap, and Fibonnaci introduced this zero thing to Europe in 1202. Any observation ("stunning") relying on an incorrect assertion that this is a belief system is irrelevant. Something called the Renaissance happened. Incremental advancements are happening continuously. For example, engineers are working on Class D technology that is far superior than just a few years ago - and Class D has been around for well over half a century (I'm happy to be corrected on that, guessing a bit).. It is known by diligent and humble engineers that further advancements will continue to be made - possibly not quite sure what they will be, but that’s pretty exciting, innit? Measurement technology and a knowledge of relevant metrics has advanced substantially, and will probably continue to do so.
Uh huh.
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