Will, based on other posts of his, shows this common behavior. I feel justified in my comment, as, I have nothing personal against him. But, high end audio, is an adult hobby, and should be handled as such. I also want to point out, that Will is not alone in this behavior, as I have read, and personally witnessed, such behavior in others. |
I think at this point you might be being too hard on Will. I understand the frustration but ultimately he had us set up his preamp with the phono section and he seemed pleased with the results at the time. He posted as such over on AudioAsylum.com. Even though the preamp is intended to be less expensive, we do pride ourselves on our work and IIRC Will made a point about mentioning that in his post.
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It could be, assuming autspecs competence and knowing Ralphs, that these 2 speak different technical dialects. I will say that sometimes Ralph wants to answer a question with a how and why response. Explaining and justifying his design choices to others which is very common among designers who are proud of their children, Most likely some breakdown in communication with a slight over reaction due to frustration on the part of autospec. |
I feel autospec offers a reasonable product, with his Dynaco 70 rebuilds, although, I would not buy one myself. As someone mentioned above, autospec is a big crybaby, as, if he does not get what he wants, he goes public with his bantering, and tries to bring somebody down, in the interim. Very unprofessional. Likely, he was a very spoiled child, and, still is. I am sorry for this post, but needed to say it. Enjoy ! MrD. |
Old post but I couldn't help but chip in. Perhaps OP should stick to reparing TV instead of audio stuffs. Comparing TV with audio stuffs is a very biased view. Are you saying Ralph sells more of his audio stuffs vs any brand of TV worldwide?
The more I read this post, I feel like OP is just acting like a crying baby. Daddy can not buy you that candy and all you can do is rolling over the floor, smashing all your other toys. |
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I think you are out of line asking for Atma's intellectual property and R&D laid out for you . That would be like me asking C-J to send me all the values and part numbers to populate the board and make it a Classic preamp with phono. I can send it to them and they will happily upgrade it , for about the price difference between line stage only and one with phono.
I repair medical equipment, often times we can't get board level schematics or B.O.M. , often times part numbers are obliterated or painted over.....want it fixed? It goes back to the manufacturer. That is their "property" and revenue stream.
Also lame of you to air this on a forum that Ralph frequents and contributes to..... |
Well then
now that is settled
planets back in alignment
except for that pesky Tesla
sure hope Elon put a schematic in the glove box before lighting the fuse on the rocket....
i will I’ll say this IMO buying or selling here and in what $$$ volume does not confer worth ..... your actual mileage may vary
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I read through the whole thread again.
I understand where autospec is coming from. He is apparently quite technically adept with tube amps and wanted a schematic to do some work himself. Unfortunately there is none. So Ralph tried to provide the info needed which was very considerate. I can understand why a technical guy wants a blueprint in writing in order to do things right. Its a best practice in engineering in general when the goal is to share technical information with others. However a vendor is under no obligation to have or provide that to others. Were they authorized to do service on the product then definitely but that is not the case here.
That does not mean autospec has to live with that situation. Since it matters to him, sellng the gear is a perfectly good outcome given the circumstance. If a product does not have the feature you need then that is that.
So no bad guys in this story I’d say. It is what it is. I did get the impression autospec may have felt ganged up on but I don’t think that was the intention of most. Atmasphere has earned a lot of respect here over the years and you can’t buy that. |
Treija and noromance Thank You Will
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@trelja Agreed. Will's work looks great and he deserves respect for his contribution to the audioplile community. Sometimes what folks mean fails to come across in text. Peace out.
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It's a bit sad to see where this thread went...
Things sometimes go sideways. That's life, yes? But hopefully, with a bit of road between now and what's ahead, things will get back to good.
Obviously, Ralph's a good guy and a valuable member of the community. However, Will Vincent (autospec) IS AS WELL. Almost anyone familiar with this beautiful Dynaco ST70 restorations / retromods and other work would agree
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I have purchased many thousands of $$$ worth of stuff here, and do find your tirade uncalled for and ugly. Just my opinion of course. Yes, I do have an opinion, as you say, as do you. We may differ about things, but not about that. By the way I thought you said a while back you were finished with this tirade. What happened????
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I also see that most of you folks that have opinions about other peoples purchased haven't spent the first dime on Audiogon buying anything......All you have is opinions...... |
As usual, Ralph is the epitome of class and helpfulness.
Unfortunately the same can’t be said for some others around here.
Best regards,
-- Al
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I started this tread hoping to purchase a schematic, I wanted nothing else but a schematic......I offered to pay for it....A very simple request ....Do you see what you get with a group of uninformed people, who bring nothing to the table.....There has been little good input.......Just a bunch of old ladies pushing something around.....Mr testpilot has never bought or sold anything on Audiogon, so what would he know about any of this.....It is a poor place to search for help on a problem......If Ralph would have said I don't have a diagram in the first place....I wouldn't have push him for it.......If he would have said we used a printed circuit , that would have been fine....but that didn't happen and nobody offered to sell me one......There are too many big egos and not a enough of the real stuff that makes this a fun hobby......I don't need any equipment that creates hard feeling with me or the builder.....That's why its for sale.....Try and find a way to help a problem and maybe the results will be better......All I wanted was a schematic, that I was willing to pay for......Thanks for none of it.........Will |
Too nice and too late. Autospec has already made up his mind he's done with Atma-Sphere, and listed that beautiful champagne faceplate pre-amp. Damn I wish I had a spare ten grand! |
Yeah, Ralph, you are being too nice. The OP represented himself poorly. #greatthread
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And,
Let's make American Threads Great Again!
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Gosh Ralph, you are too nice.
Bob |
FWIW, yesterday I discovered that my employee that builds the UV-1s had taken interior photos of the early handwired units on his phone. The photos were clear enough to suss out the layout, so I sent one to Will.
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Well, At least Will Kept his word, He has his MP-1, the M-50's and the UV-1 for sale on another site. He says an S model coming soon.
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@autospec has a history of trashing (attempting) the reputation of manufactures when he does not get exactly what he wants. He puts himself out there as a competent amateur technician, but does not know how to wire a simple xlr plug. Just check his forum post history. Both Mat Weisfeld of VPI and now Ralph of Atma-sphere have attempted to help him out with respect to a legacy product and autospec is completely unappreciative of their efforts. If he does not get exactly what he wants, even if it is unavailable, he always threatens to sell off said manufacture's equipment. Still have not seen any of his VPI tables for sale... LOL
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"Great Thread" ??? And what does that mean ???
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IMO
this great thread will push me towards purchasing anything Ralph makes !!!!!!
bravo Ralph
jim |
rsf507; Feel free to call Ralph and ask him what was done......Then you can contact me if you would like to purchase it.........I also have a pair of the matching gold m-50 amps...... |
autospec can you elaborate on what required fixing on your MP-1 that
cost 2k? I'm in the market for a used MP-1 and would like to know what
might go wrong. Will found what was apparently the 3rd MP-1 ever built in a shop near his house. It needed some work (being about 28 years old: someone had tampered with the power supply as well) and we installed a number of updates to insure it working properly. It was a treat to have such an early example in the shop- haven't seen one of the original Mk1s in over 20 years. |
+3 Swampwalker. The OP seems to be throwing a tantrum, indeed, at this point. Weird.
Sorry you have to wade through stuff like this, Ralph...
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+2 Swampwalker. The thing that surprises me most is how generous Ralph has been in trying to accommodate a troublesome owner. Ralph’s emails in this thread contain enough information for anyone experienced with tube preamps to build a close cousin to the Atmasphere phono stage. Would it be identical? Of course not. The types of resistors, capacities and even wire make a difference, a big difference, but Ralph has pretty much told you the circuit details. That is more than just about any other mfr will do. By the way, the OP apparently bought his preamp second-hand; he isn’t an original purchaser so the mfr owes him nothing!
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+1 timlub & gdnrbob
OP-
1. The info you want is rarely openly available. Just because some of those units had an MM stage installed at the factory does not mean that the manufacturer has ANY obligation (legal, moral, ethical, etc.) to assist you in building and installing one in yours. In fact, most manufacturers would tell you to pound sand, after they reminded you that you would be voiding the warranty.
2. Ralph has given you (as far as a non-tech person like me can determine) pretty much everything you asked for and is offering his time (which has value, to be sure) to assist you further.
If your aim is to trash him, you've failed. IMO, he comes off as bending over backward to be helpful and you come off looking like a cranky 2 year old who missed his nap! Just my $0.02.
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timlub,
Well, I suppose he will endeavor to make the change with info Atmasphere can provide, send it to Ralph to do, or sell and take a different path. His choice. He wants a phono and the pre-amp does not have one. I agree Ralph is doing what he can to address the issue and try to make a customer happy which is the most important thing.
Ironically, as I write this, I am similarly working with a customer to help him get a piece of software I provided to do some things he now wants that it was not originally designed to do out of the box. Irony!
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I'll take that preamp off your hands.
Bob |
autospec can you elaborate on what required fixing on your MP-1 that cost 2k? I'm in the market for a used MP-1 and would like to know what might go wrong.
Thank you |
@mapman
Your sentiments are correct in a perfect world... Obviously Ralph is willing to help. It seems that if Will doesn't get the info exactly the drawn out for him that he won't be happy and will continue to Slam Ralph and Atma-sphere. Ralph is being a gentleman about it and has offered 1 on 1 help, but he has a guy that doesn't understand enough to take the direction as given and make it work. I can empathize because in this case, I would also need a schematic. He told Ralph that he has the technical ability to do the work, but that doesn't mean that he has the technical ability to de-cypher what needs to be done from a slightly different schematic, which I posted a PDF link in an earlier post. |
FWIW, seems the original question and the problem at hand is being addressed as best possible by the best person to address it. I’d take the issue private at this point if it were me. Sounds like a happy ending for all should be somewhere not too far down the road one way or another.
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Will, I think you are absolutely correct, this stuff must be crap and you shouldn't have it.... I feel bad for you, so I will pay the shipping to Ralph. Ralph, if you would please, Repair anything that he sends, then send me the bill and when I pay it, ship all of that terrible equipment to me. I'm going to suffer listening to it, just for humanity sake!
I am willing to take this off Will's hands.... |
Will, I was very clear about this on the phone.
Who are the 'others' that 'don't see it that way'?
It seemed quite clear on the phone that you were interested in doing this yourself, and you've made it clear to me in past phone calls that you have the technical ability to do so. So with that in mind, I knew that I had given you all the information you needed, but now somehow I feel like you're making me out to be the bad guy in this.
I don't know how I could have been more clear or how I could have done this better; perhaps you could explain it to me. I don't have your number, but you have mine- just give me a call; I'm not upset and you know that I'm easy going. I would just like to understand this.
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Thank you for your e-mail, but It would have served us all to be clear at the beginning.....I am offering all my Atma Sphere equipment for sale, I am no longer interested in listening to it .......Or having to deal with it in the future........I was trying to make the modification to a high standard, its to bad that others don't see it that way.......It can be someone eases problem ...Will |
We have schematics for the M-50 and MP-1, Will.
You asked for a schematic, not internal layouts. We don't have a schematic that is all that neat as I mentioned before. But apparently even if I had provided it, that would not have solved the problem, which is you also want the layout.
I did point out to you on the phone that we use several terminal strips, the largest being a 3-place terminal.
You told me that you have one of the blue units, which is from the first run of 10, nine of which are hand wired, and 3 of which had the phono circuit. We don't have any of those on hand (only a few were built that way) as a reference; all the units we have on hand employ the circuit board.
Since the circuit is simple, and I have laid out its characteristics, it follows that it will be easy to service in the event that we go out of business. All of our equipment was built to be serviced; I put myself through college by servicing consumer gear and got quite tired of fixing equipment that was clearly not intended to be serviced after the sale.
So here is what I can tell you about the layout, which is from memory as we don't have internal photos of the handwired units. The 3 position terminal is located to the front of the unit, where the output coupling caps are located. The inputs were thus towards the rear, and tied directly in to the phono so that only the output is switched; and is adjacent to the input selector switch. The chassis is equipped with pressed through studs for mounting the tube sockets (this was done to minimize visible hardware on the outside of the unit). There are extra pressed through studs that aren't used for the tube sockets.
They are meant for terminal strips. Unlike some companies, we don't use hot melt glue to hold things in place. We use Keystone terminal strips as they are accessible and easy to get. The Keystone part numbers used are #810 for the 2-position strips used on either side of the sockets, and #813 for the 3-position parts which are mounted on the studs not associated with the tube sockets. They and the tube sockets are secured by 4-40 KEPS nuts (KEPS nuts have a captured lockwasher). I was attempting to tell you this information at the end of our phone call. If you'd stayed on the phone longer I would have told you more, and still will if you care to pursue this project.
One thing I forgot, we use stopping resistors in series with the grids of each stage. The value is 300 ohms. This allows the phono section to be stable and so reduces ticks and pops that would otherwise become audible due to short-term oscillation. This is why you will hear more ticks and pops on a PAS-3 (they missed the second stage of gain) than you will on the UV-1.
Regarding the power supply: you should have at least three filter caps in your line stage at present- two 33uf parts and one 100uf part. For the phono section, two 22uf caps are added, one for each channel. So there are two resistors of 22.1K that feed those 22uf units from the 100uf unit. Both stages of the phono run off of the 22uf part.
We never generated layouts for the initial run; what you may not know is that the preamp was originally commissioned by a third party, and we were uncertain at the time where exactly the project would go. When that party backed out of the project, we already had the first 10 chassis sitting on a shelf, where they sat for a couple of years until we realized that there actually was a market for the preamp and so we built some up. We did try to keep all the handwired units looking the same internally but as there were only three built with the phono and since it is a fairly simple circuit, no-one here thought to document the layout, since the intention all along was to put the whole thing on a circuit board.
I'm sorry this has caused you such distress; we do support our products to the best of our ability.
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+1 Mapman,
Unless you "absolutely" have to have a pre with built in phono stage, why wouldn't an external phono stage work for you? A plethora of phono stages out on the market. You should be able to get exactly what you want. |
if you want buyers ya gotta list your stuff for sale
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it appears there is a UV-1 for sale right now with factory phono board.....modification....
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just so I understand you have the Atmas pre-amp without a phono section? How is that? That model is supposed to have the phono section based on teh docs online. Is teh phono section you want to install from Atmasphere or somewhere else?
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Why would the vendor care?? I am trying to put in the stock phono circuit, so the pre-amp will be like the factory model.....I don't want to do anything else.....I phono modification is simple, but I would like it like the factory model........I could send it in to Ralph and pay 500.00 or more to have it done, but the UV-1 isn't worth that much , so I was going to do it myself........(I have build , designed, and modified hundreds of these ).....I will get rid of every piece of Atma Sphere equipment I have as soon as I can find a buyer.... |
Is the goal to be able to add phono as a source? Rather than operate on the device yourself, see if Atmasphere can do it for you. Or maybe just add an external phono pre-amp?
Would either of those work for you?
In general, though some may be equipped to do so in some cases, I think it’s not reasonable to expect a vendor to provide info needed to make mods to a device. There is no way for the vendor to assure good results cost effectively.
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Very understandable. Not all manufacturers will go to the trouble and cost of producing user engineering schematics and maintenance manuals. In fact very few do. ATC have sent me specific circuit diagrams and board layouts (two separate pieces of info about the same circuit board) in the past. ATC don’t have a problem with this because they are an engineering driven outfit that expects and anticipates that professional users will need to sometimes make onsite repairs on damaged gear (misuse being a common occurrence in a professional facility that is leased by various producers and musicians regularly).
The cost of proper professional documentation (engineering diagrams) and revision tracking is not surprisingly very costly and it is often hard to justify in a boutique market. In a boutique market, personal notes and hand written schematics are more than sufficient for a small manufacturer to produce great quality gear. Unfortunately this is not suitable fir dissemination to repair technicians.... |
I just paid Atma Sphere 2000.00 to repair a MP-1 .....I'm not asking for anything but a schematic.....It's not like I'm a bad customer.....My entire Atma Spheresystem is for sale.....It will be listed on Audiogon..........The best way to fix the problem is get rid of it.....Then I don't need a schematic or any service.......Problem solved.......Will
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+1 Al and +1 noromance.
Ralph has been very reasonable and cooperative.
Very bizarre attitude from the OP.
Charles |
It seems to me that:
1)Ralph has provided as much information as he can, within the bounds of practicality and reasonableness.
2)What he has provided is a lot more than what most manufacturers would have provided.
3)What he has provided is all of the information needed to readily create a schematic.
4)It seems extremely unlikely that anyone else has created a schematic.
5)A lot of the information you indicated is necessary beyond what Ralph has provided, e.g., "parts placement for low noise problems," would not be included in a schematic anyway. (The Sams "schematics" from days of yore, that were referred to earlier, were a good deal more than just schematics).
Those are the facts which must be dealt with, as I understand them. Why those facts should result in a reaction such as "I think I’ll get rid of all of the Atma Sphere stuff I have" is beyond me.
Regards,
-- Al
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