Are there other people like me ? Amazed by their low cost system :)
Are there other people so much amazed by a relatively low cost system , they consider that is not a stopgap but instead a minimally satisfying ectasy... Each day i am amazed by my speakers and headphone... Am i deaf? Am i ignorant of high end ? Be assured that i know better system with higher acoustic experience and more refined exist ...
My point is an experienced and felt minimal threshold of acoustic qualities and well done and well realized and well manifested acoustic factors exist for me and are at play, for the price invested; so much so , i consider any upgrade way less tempting and if possible would be more, way more , costlier to appear as a real upgrade in quality... For sure an upgrade of part at low cost unbeknowst to me is possible but i must live with what i have for now but i feel no frustration at all. š
Am i the only one deluded in this way or enlightened in this way ? Pick your choice of word.... š
currently running a $62 Fosi integrated, $149 WiiM streamer, pair of Avalon Ascendants - quite surprised at how good it sounds...and no attention given to placement, acoustics etc ...
Interesting!
I own a Fosi SK01 headphone amplifier with the AKG sextett ...( for my computer use it is not my main headphone amp) I used a Douk P2 tube preamplifierfor the Fosi headphone amp and as pre for my active speakers.. Price 60 bucks too ...
It is so good for peanuts price that i will never upgrade it save with a very high end design headphone amplifier .. Why ?
Because i will be afraid to buy one at 500 bucks compared to this one i paid 60 bucks so good it is...Who want to pay 500 bucks for a marginal upgrade or just changing 4x 25 cents for a dollar...
Here i will upgrade it only with something very high end at more than 1000 bucks..š
And anyway in upgrade process all gear pieces must pertain to the same quality design/price scale generally speaking... No one use generally a 200 bucks tube in a 25 dollars tube amp...
But there is exception to this rule as your short interesting post reveal : the Avalon ascendant driven by a 62 bucks amp with success it seems ... š
And you are right about synergy... It is really the starting point and can become a problem when we buy a new piece as so called upgrade...
It is why i recommend experiments with what we have before upgrading if the synergy is good to begin with for sure...
Ā
Ā Thanks for your interesting observations bro...
With that said, I usually enjoy my main system a lot until I āupgradeā something and disrupt the synergy between components/cables/room/ears in the process. Then it becomes an obsession and a source of frustration until the synergy is restored. Iāve done it too many times too.
But whatās interesting is when I listen to music on my lower cost system we use to watch movies and play background music on, (Marantz AVR, Focal Aria 906, Apple TV streaming Tidal), I can honestly say that I enjoy music just as much as I do when listening to my main rig. I just enjoy the sound of my main rig more.
As i said relatively low cost can vary a lot in function of each one of us different needs and budget limit...
My main point is about the way and the meansĀ to enjoy a "relatively low cost system" not so much about a fixed amount of money...
The back tought behind this question is that mechanical and electrical and acoustical knowlwedge define audiophile experience more than mere price tags...
the other point is then that acoustic satisfaction is possible at relatively low cost...
I dont define a "cost" because when you know what to do to improve an audio system, his cost matter way lessĀ for a musical and sound quality experience...
Even Bill gates then can come and participate and ex-plain to us how he had as much pleasure with his "low cost" system of 80,000 bucks than the other one he own of one millon dolars becauseĀ he learned how to install and embed each pieces in the right electrical, mechanical and acoustical working dimensions...
then here relatively low costĀ is defined by the specfic history os each one and his needs and budget...
My thread and question are not dogmatic opinion about pricing but inviation about thinking how to improve what we have or how to experiment for improvement BEFORE a costlier upgrades which can become useless or less useful when we learn more ...
@mahgisterĀ how do you define a relatively low cost system? I didnāt go thru the entire discussion and possibly missed it but is there a cap on a total to consider a system low cost?Ā
Compared to some other systems Iāve seen, mine is relatively low cost.
currently running a $62 Fosi integrated, $149 WiiM streamer, pair of Avalon Ascendants - quite surprised at how good it sounds...and no attention given to placement, acoustics etc ...
But Guttenberg as most audiophiles will insist on the gear choice and synergy...
We must start with good synergetical pieces of gear then it is Ok...
But my main argument concerning the reason why a relatively low cost system can gave an audiophile very good if not magical experience is based on the electrical,mechanical and acoustical factors and controls as much as important as synergy and gear choices to reach the potential peak of any system at any price in a room ...
@mahgisterĀ how do you define a relatively low cost system? I didnāt go thru the entire discussion and possibly missed it but is there a cap on a total to consider a system low cost?Ā
Compared to some other systems Iāve seen, mine is relatively low cost.Ā
With that said, I usually enjoy my main system a lot until I āupgradeā something and disrupt the synergy between components/cables/room/ears in the process. Then it becomes an obsession and a source of frustration until the synergy is restored. Iāve done it too many times too.
But whatās interesting is when I listen to music on my lower cost system we use to watch movies and play background music on, (Marantz AVR, Focal Aria 906, Apple TV streaming Tidal), I can honestly say that I enjoy music just as much as I do when listening to my main rig. I just enjoy the sound of my main rig more. Ā
Ā And i must say that i had not thought about this argument when i spoke and advocate aboutĀ relatively low cost system :
Ā«This $500 audiophile system is important because itĀ opens the door to a young generation of audiophilesĀ who typically have a tough financial road ahead of them Ā»
Your cryptic opinion must be explained in more details...š
I dont understand how people expressing their experience in varied situations with relatively low cost systems in a positive wayĀ will discourage people to engage...
Save for oneĀ childish post, all posts were adding more perspectives to the thread question.
Then your one sentence judgement read like a riddle coming from a sphinx judging from above...š
Explain or stay mute...Thanks in advance ...
Great example of how an honest question becomes a disconnected discussion that would discourage most from wanting to engage the community again. Great job folks.
Great example of how an honest question becomes a disconnected discussion that would discourage most from wanting to engage the community again.Ā Great job folks.
I think there are different ways to enjoy music. Ā I enjoy listening to my car radio while driving, which certainly isnāt anywhere near āaudiophileā. Ā When Iām out on the deck or patio, I enjoy listening to my inexpensive Bluetooth speakers. Ā I can be in a sports bar and enjoy music played on a jukebox. Ā Itās all pleasant to me ā I donāt always have to, or want to, be attending to every single nuance. Ā And my set-up for āseriousā listening is rather meager but still better than that of anyone I know. Ā I like it ā Iām good. Ā š
For sure when i spoke about low cost system being acoustically "magical" the exact price scale level had not much importance... We are all different, with different needs, different possibilities(room) and different budget...
my point is about "relatively low cost system".... From 1,000 bucks to 50,000 bucks if Bill Gates discover downsizing and the joy of experimenting with less and more creativity ( he has no time for that i guess š If i was him i will buy the best plug it and call it a day in audio) ...
High end is not synonymus with audiophile experience, knowledge and creativity are... Acoustics beat price tags very often ...Synergy is starting point ...
The goal is listening musicĀ at the minimal acousticalĀ satisfaction threshold with the best S.Q. for the least money invested ...
So I am dedicated to buying almost everything second hand - yesterdayās upper end. I donāt mind having to wait to live in luxury. I buy off of Craigslist, from Saturday Audio Exchange (Andy is the best), occasionally Audiogon and Ebay.
So the retail cost equivalent of the system I listen to is about $20K-25K. Paid about $6500. Thatās not to say that is all I spent to get there because it IS a journey and what I like about my approach is auditions are very long term, in my listening room, with my gear. Things I donāt use are traded in, traded, or sold for near or at the price I paid.
[Numbers assume Iām listening to digital front end. I also have an analog setup that would increase the above numbers, but still bought used other than the cartridge, and the boys over at Music Direct did me a huge favor when they got me their demo Avid phono preamp on the extra cheap]
Plus I have a lot of alternative gear of equivalent quality and I shuffle the deck pretty often. Thatās helpful when auditioning a recent acquisition since I can try different combinations to see what sounds best with it.
There is a lot of work in that - I donāt have the space to do all the acoustical stuff that Mahgister has been able to do, but I do have thick carpet and a vaulted ceiling with decent natural acoustics. I do move gear around, swap connections, angle and toe, use a swarm of subs, etc., and that all takes work to configure well and also keep running. Plus you have to be glued to all the used markets and be opportunistic on purchase - buy whatās available rather than some targeted piece.
I enjoy the sound tremendously. It is magic to me. And one of my favorite things to do is test synergy among components by shuffling the deck - I have a NOS DAC and a SABRE-based DAC and they have different qualities. Levinson SS pre sounds different from the BAT tube pre. 5.1 SACD or DVDA adds another dimension (literally!). Sure, I could combine all that value and have components with 2x-3x the retail price but IMHO itās more about synergy and learning and I am happy with what Iāve got (not that I wouldnāt jump at a $10K piece I saw sitting at Goodwill or something).
I almost hesitated to put in numbers because I think itās obnoxious to talk about spend, but did in order to provide some context. Please forgive me if I broke my own rule...at least Iām not talking about my 6 figure system and how it enhances my manhood...
I concur with the three posters above ... Thanks...
But it will be interesting to read their more detailed experience with their relatively low cost system versus a more costlier part or more costlier system...
It is sure that acoustics knowledge teach us how to separate straw and grain in audio marketing... No need to many showroom visits if you had learned how to make your system- room better and even magical... Your ears will taught you so...
This thread is one of the rare claiming that less may be more ...If knowledge is acquired and creativity developed a bit ...
The more we learn the less upgrades we may need...
If you understand acoustics and what human hearing is capable of hearing and what it isn't, it's not difficult to set up an exemplary low-cost (sub-$2000) system. Especially if you buy used and/or build your own speakers and acoustic treatments.
Interesting point nobody had make in this thread till now...
I also was surprized by a peanuts cost tube preamplifier and an headphone peanuts cost one...
Ā
I really think that we live interesting time for audiophiles...
Thanks for your post ... It can be interesting for people looking for a tuner for sure... I will look at it by curiosity ...
I donāt have a low cost system BUT one of my most outstanding pieces of gear is also my least expensive. After excessive building of high riseās in my neighborhood made FM reception impossible I stuck my toe in the water and bought an Ocean Digital WR 10 internet āTunerā ($179) I bought a good either-net cable, upgraded the power supply to an IFI wall wart ($50) and bought a used Monarchy DIP re-clocker ($199)
Hooked up to my Kora DAC it sounds AMAZING!
Sometimes, with a few low cost upgrades, you can take a humble piece of kit and turn it into a giant killer!
Ā And take a poll, and if most people here dont understand any of my point as you claim you dont, then i amĀ an idiot...
If many people canĀ understand my pointĀ then you are the one...
And why writing here that you understand a dude who spam a thread instead of writing a sentence ?
No need to answer... Your post will be understood as void of meaning... Sorry...
Ā
I have to say, @mahgisterĀ , that at times I wish I could take a puff of whatever it is that youāre smoking, in hopes to be able to 1) go thru your posts and 2) understand what youāre trying to say. But we already had this conversation and I failed miserably. Lol
I don't have a low cost system BUT one of my most outstanding pieces of gear is also my least expensive. After excessive building of high rise's in my neighborhoodĀ made FM reception impossible I stuck my toe in the water and bought an Ocean Digital WR 10 internet 'Tuner'Ā ($179) I bought a good either-net cable, upgraded the power supply to an IFI wall wart ($50) and bought a used Monarchy DIP re-clocker ($199)
Hooked up to my Kora DAC it sounds AMAZING!Ā
Sometimes, with a few low cost upgrades, you can take a humble piece of kit and turn it into a giant killer!Ā Ā Ā
I have to say, @mahgisterĀ , that at times I wish I could take a puff of whatever it is that youāre smoking, in hopes to be able to 1) go thru your posts and 2) understand what youāre trying to say. But we already had this conversation and I failed miserably. Lol
It is also my general attitude and we are not alone it seems...
Except i am amazed as some others people by their low cost system... Probably luck in synergy and better embeddings controls are Key for amazement ...
Thanks for your opinion...
I am not amazed but I can appreciate a low cost system that sounds nice. The decision comes when something really outperforms and then you have to consider spending a little more for that sound.
Usually i dont signal post and even in the past i had not signal the post of someone accusing me of killing people during covid discussion here in Audiogon...
Then i do not ask and never asked the audiogon person assigned to survey all thread to censor a post even one accusing me of murder...Then....
I can defend myself without signalling a post....
is this clear for all ?
Ā
Ā
But this idiot above instead of writing his opinion in one sentence : "The OP wrote too much and had a big ego", which is at least not completely false, š pollute the thread by idiotic repetition...š
I ask this hateful idiot to remove his post... And replace it by a one sentence insult...We can ignore one sentence insult coming from idiot...
If he do not remove his post himself , i signal his post in a public way to the Audiogon responsible person in charge to remove it instead of doing it covertly because this post is not only useless, but polluting the thread...I act here always openly and hate to signal people and never do it covertly ..
Thanks...
Ā
Ā The audiogon person in charge can after erasing the post above erase mine because it will not make any sense... Thanks in advanceĀ to the audiogon service person...
I am not amazed but I can appreciate a low cost system that sounds nice.Ā The decision comes when something really outperforms and then you have to consider spending a little more for that sound.
For sure what my Tannoy dual gold concentric could do , never my small active 4 inches woofer from M-audio even heavily modified as i did, can do it...š
But guess what ! š
Not knowing acoustics and nothing about audio at the times i owned the Tannoy , i enjoy more right now and i had more acoustics balanced factors experience with these very low cost M-Audio speakers compared to the better refined design of the mythical Tannoy which anyway i never learned to use at their optimum ( i was frustrated by the sound changing amp and never thinking about the Tannoy embeddings in the house/room). š
The main point of this thread is this : knowledge most of the time beat price tags and if it is not the case , basic electrical, mechanical and acoustical knowledge can anyway takes any system to his optimum workings and we can bodly go where no one had gone before with the same speakers... š
Thanks a lot for your informative postĀ which will add weight to the idea that money alone dont define audio experience ....
Ā
Op I have 2 main systems where I compare my low cost system, musicality and musical involvement is very close. But liveness and hearing more thatās where my main 2 systems shine. Low cost systems can only do so much not enough to beat my main systems. What the Andra and my KLH does the ELac canāt.
Op I have 2 main systems where I compare my low cost system, musicality and musical involvement is very close. But liveness and hearing more thatās where my main 2 systems shine. Low cost systems can only do so much not enough to beat my main systems. What the Andra and my KLH does the ELac canāt.
The downsizing of mind all around will not result in a growingĀ interestĀ by older people or young adult to higher forms of meanings through music...
Music is like maths in a way, generally we must learn it young to enjoy it deeply...Under 14 years old... There is exception as i begun to love maths at 19 when i quit all bad maths teachers......š Maths is more like poetry than accountability ...
š
I think you are right for the availability of better design at lower cost...
This is why my thread make sense...
Add to this fact the necessary better acoustics understanding nowadays and other mechanical and electrical noise floor improvement, audiophile experience can be cheap costs...
But we must pay the price now in study time and experiments...
A good audiophile system is not free nor plug and play even today...
Ā
I have three low-cost systems in various rooms and a "main" one in my living room.
I think I can safely say that the low-cost systems sound remarkably good for the price - better than anything I had when I was in college (late 1970s) and in the 1980s. And hey, I enjoyed those 1970s and 1980s systems just fine.
Modern speakers - at all price points - have made sonic strides. Modern electronics and manufacturing techniques have brought down the cost of entry systems.
Now, if we could only interest Gen Z in audio and get a sizeable population on the path to being audiophiles and supporting the manufacturers
I have three low-cost systems in various rooms and a "main" one in my living room.
I think I can safely say that the low-cost systems sound remarkably good for the price - better than anything I had when I was in college (late 1970s) and in the 1980s. And hey, I enjoyed those 1970s and 1980s systems just fine.
Modern speakers - at all price points - have made sonic strides. Modern electronics and manufacturing techniques have brought down the cost of entry systems.
Now, if we could only interest Gen Z in audio and get a sizeable population on the path to being audiophiles and supporting the manufacturers.
I will only add that it is even more true if we embed rightfully in their mechanical,electrical and acoustical working dimensions the relatively low price synergetical system we bought or any system at any price anyway...
More than in the past , performance quality had almost no linear relation with price...
It is why i distinguish myself only two levels with relative variation between them : minimal and maximal acoustic satisfaction thresholds...
Ā
In many ways, and despite the loss of so many traditional brick-and-mortar audio shops, these are the best of times in this hobby. There are enormous choices of product from manufacturers who bring exceptional value for money. Having started out when vinyl was the main medium in recorded music and tape for duplication there were popular mass market brands and the stuff sold at the high end shops (I couldnāt afford nor would have wanted R2R as a poor university student, being quite happy enough to have a low powered Technics receiver, a turntable and a pair of "bookshelf" speakers.) Now exceptional performance doesnāt require an exceptional spend.
In many ways, and despite the loss of so many traditional brick-and-mortar audio shops, these are the best of times in this hobby. There are enormous choices of product from manufacturers who bring exceptional value for money. Having started out when vinyl was the main medium in recorded music and tape for duplication there were popular mass market brands and the stuff sold at the high end shops (I couldn't afford nor would have wanted R2R as a poor university student, being quite happy enough to have a low powered Technics receiver, a turntable and a pair of "bookshelf" speakers.) Now exceptional performance doesn't require an exceptional spend.
Your observation correspond to my experience in acoustics evaluation...
When things got right with gear synergy in a not too bad room, we live through a minimal acoustic satisfaction threshold ... This minimal level suppose in spite of some inevitable limitations a relatively good balance between all acoustics factors implied and when we live through it the first time by luck or/and by good planification , we feel a small ectasy or at least a great pleasure ... It is sometimes enough for many if not most people ...š
Anyway to go further luck and gear synergy and a not too bad room will not be enough...
We will need if we want to go to the maximal acoustical satisfaction threshold, to recover this balance between all acoustic factors on a higher level of experience , we will need if not higher quality gear design upgrades, at least embeddings controls devices and means and tools in the mechanical, electrical and especially acoustical working dimensions of the system/ears/room ...
Acoustics is the main factor of audiophile experience and acoustics is more than room acoustic here ...
Thanks for your post...
It was a sub 2k system that was so satisfying had I started with it I mightāve stopped there.
Around 2010 I bought a pair of Thiel 2 2s that were around 20 years old and cost $1,000.Ā I paired them with a B&K ST202 I had bought used for $300.Ā I don't remember what the disk spinner was.Ā Probably fed a digital signal from a relatively cheap dvd player to a receiver I got marked way down at Best Buy when they used to mark stuff way down sometimes.Ā Yamaha or Pioneer I don't remember.Ā It was a sub 2k system that was so satisfying had I started with it I might've stopped there.Ā Ā
Now a testimony from someone way more competent and knowledgeable than me by far, far margin ... I must keep my pride then i used the word "margin" instead of ocean apart š...
But observe that he does not even spoke about my obsession embeddings electrical, mechanical and acoustical controls at all nor about their i9mpact as i did... he spoke about the actual gear market quality at low price nowadays from his educated perspective :
The underlining is mine ... š
Ā
Now imagine buying the low cost gear recommended by M. Malitz here and imagine that instead of just plugging them on the wall and listening you try to embed them mechanically electrically and acoustically in a rightfull way as i did ?
If you do as i did you really can called your low cost system if not TOP maximal acoustical satisfaction threshold probably you can as i did for mine called it a minimal acoustical satisfaction threshold level reached ... And trust me it is if not enough it is almost enough ... šš
Ā
Is there other people in audiogon with satisfying low cost system ? please spoke and explain why to us this is so ....I take "low cost" in a relative meaning way, if you go from a 100,000 bucks system downsizing to a 20,000 bucks one with no great loss of S.Q. your testimonies will be useful for all too... Low cost here means as a ratio between S.Q. and Price...
Former Owner Bob Carver Corporation (2015āpresent)Author has 6.7K answers and 10.2M answer views2y
There are bargains out there. But the last people you want to turn to for advice are people on this forum bragging theyāre in the music production business. Imagine a famous producer or engineer coming to this forum! I donāt come here for advice. I came here primarily to promote my brand. But with handmade amplifiers from $3000-$32,000 and $20,000 Loudspeakers and $3000 subs, I quickly realized I was in the wrong place but I also realized there were a lot of people like you who needed some help. Since I had a little extra time, I decided to stick around and offer some advice. Because Iām a published writer as well, Iām about to minimize my relationship with this forum. I have to pay more attention to my business. So, regarding prosound people:
Their industry has given us so much great music, yet with poor sound, that most could be classified as garbage, and it could be argued more than any other consumer product in history. I have thousands of albums. I have a separate room to store them in. Probably barely 200 are of refernce quality. Thatās an embarrassment. Hereās why:
As a working musician and a person involved in pro-sound products from JBL to Genelec to BASF to Maxell, 17 years representing Yamaha and 20 years representing Sennheiser, representing over a dozen record labels, plus dealing with hundreds and hundreds of consumer resellers for fifty years. Hereās what I discovered:
in the professional world, a true professional Producer or engineer working full-time, cannot possibly audition hundreds of loudspeakers. No time. An audiophile , conversely, can audition a dozen outstanding products in a day. Because itās their hobby, they do an immense amount of research. The reviewers are well-known and consistent.
when we wanted to sell monitors, if weāre even permitted to, we would demonstrate the product properly because we are professionals. We pick the material and control the demonstration and it always sounds good. Many prosound production monitors sound great. But Iāve been in speaker factories all over the world and every company Iāve been involved with, pro or consumer, aspires to excellence. and they were all pleased about their excellent specifications. and yet they all sounded different from each other.
Iāve seen everything from gigantic anechoic chambers to mainframes doing Numbercrunching, from patented woofer cone manufacturing techniques to the first prototyping machines for building drivers one at a time for analysis. But itās an inexact science. In the final analysis, all these products should be tuned by ear. Flat frequency response could be nearly meaningless. Most of the specifications are in fact meaningless to the average consumer. there are different measuring techniques and thereās no legal accountability. I could say anything I want about the speakers we manufacture.
iāve given you some background so you know Iām not trying to justify a purchase that I had made. Thatās a very common scenario on all forums.
iām going to keep this simple Iāll mention some products from companies I worked with who terminated my company so I am disinclined to give them any false props.
Iāve never been an employee of these companies but rather an independent contractor, Always under contract and usually for a limited period of time, typically 2 to 5 years. here we go:
Most talked about product in the last several years has been the loudspeakers from ANDREW JONES design. although he has done some fairly expensive high-end studio quality products, I think his greatest accomplishment was bringing inexpensive Loudspeakers to the market that punch way above their weight. I donāt mean they played loudly. I mean they played music the way it should be played.
Pioneers consumer division had about three of his models but pioneers future is uncertain and he is no longer involved with that company. He produced Loudspeakers for Elac that were simply remarkable From $200 a pair to $500 a pair. The $500 model was so good that when we auditioned the samples, my son and I looked at each other and laughed and said we could actually use these for the rest of our lives. Understand that our main system is well in the six figures. So thatās quite a statement.
itās possible that those products jumpstarted a response from popular brands like Polk and Klipsch introducing some really good sounding product well under $1000 a pair. Bring a CD of music youāre familiar with and visit some audiophile salons who put their reputation on the line and listen to their budget products. Do not go to the big box stores for Loudspeakers. Although some of the brands I mentioned are now expanding into those areas so thatās OK.
Yamaha decided to get back into the audiophile end of the business. Understand that the only thing driving the industry is surroundsound receivers. Remarkably, Yamaha introduced eight integrated amplifiers. They all sound good. They start about $250 retail.
The British take their turntables very seriously. Rega is a huge player at the entry level. You will also find inexpensive wonderful turn tables from Music Hall, MoFi, Dual And others. You can do this under $500 including the photo cartridge.
Buy a Blu-ray player that does streaming and buy a subscription for $25 to Tidalā millions of songs and albums in full bandwidth, matching or exceeding CD performance. You can buy a Blu-ray player like this for $150 and itāll sound great. CDs are now over. I donāt worry if you have some because you can play them on the Blu-ray player. Youāll find there are far less CD players available now.
so, in the final analysis, check out audiophile oriented forums and look for the bargain articles in magazines like absolute sound and Stereophile. If youāre in great Britain, youāre in great shape because they have a lot of bargains reviewed by credible people.
Forget about going to the big box Guitar store and buying a pair of cheap powered monitors. You will not be able to do meaningful comparisons in the store with material youāve brought along. They will have a limited selection. And by the way they can sound very good but youāll have little opportunity to compare the product to the competition. Your sales person will be a minimum wage child.Ā»
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