Are Quicksilver power tube amps in the same league as VAC, VTL, BAT, ARC, ...?

"@russellrcncom Czarivey: Agree. in terms of breaking down the 8407 monos were in a league of their own. They made me swear off of tube amps forever."

 

8417 you mean? Not 8407.

After the supply of good 8417 output tubes became more scarce, better than most manufacturers would do, Mike Sanders of Quicksilver offered a $275 service to convert and reconfigure them to EL34 based tube amps. There are folks out there still running the Quicksilver 8417 monos today, originally manufactured 1984-1988.

@russellrcncom 

I think that you misunderstood what @czarivey  was saying. He thinks that they are reliable.

Czarivey: Agree.   in terms of breaking down the 8407 monos were in a league of their own.  They made me swear off of tube amps forever.

If you take reliability as a factor, then Quicksilver is above.

It’s a two year old thread, and it was a reasonable question to ask. I’ve enjoyed the vibe and passion of the replies, capital letters and all, members sharing what they like and why. It’s one of the reasons I come to this forum. Its all good.

When I started down the path of buying and trying different tube amplifiers, I overlooked Quicksilver for years and their made 45m away from me. My local audio dealer (in business 53+ years) has been selling Quicksilver and AudioNote as long as anyone in business. What’s amazing is Mike Sanders is still in business, with a loyal following. The value of what he offers far exceeds the entry price.

I wanted to try the new Mono 120s when they came out with the massive quality transformers, and option to run KT150s or KT120s, all the bones where there. In stock form, at the entry price. They were solid. Can they be improved?, sure.

Experiment -

I decided to see what would happen by installing higher end silver-gold Mundorf coupling capacitors, Nichicon Power Capacitors, along with vintage NOS mallard input/driver tubes, and trying some others from new production pavane small tubes to see what can be achieved. While these amps were "too expensive to manufacture" and this along with a few other models have been discontinued, oh what a bargain find+. Just like the early Triodes, and current Mid Monos, the little EL84 integrated, real bargains and value.

Yes - I’ve compared these against amps at 2-3x the price, and the results are great - super happy that I tried this. Nothing has replaced my amps since. Nothing comes close for the investment that can run these tubes [properly], in their operating window. Best of Luck with yours. :)

@shtinkydog 

The whole post was so hopeless that it was beyond critique, so I had mercy. I did wonder if he had ever heard of commas though.

@roxy54 You mean to tell me that you're not gonna slice and dice him up for grammar, punctuation, run-on sentences, capitalization, and shouting?  🤣

@shtinkydog 

I have no problem with anyone who likes them, it's just that my experience with them was different. I don't think that the Silver Monos that I owned can be considered as anything close to reference grade, but they are nice, with obvious tube type colorations.

RALPH ATMA-sphere and Mike quicksilver are all I own because they are the best in my humble opinion and RALPH AND MIKE ARE truly awesome and patient because I am stupid but I have good ears and both take the time out of their day to help me and teach me…..my goodness the ATMA AND QS I ALTERNATE on my Merlin VSM and bobby is smiling

@jordi Wait till @roxy54 sees your post.  

With more than 25 years, you can use it in good condition.  What else tube amplifier could be that way? I do not know.

Most competent amplifiers will go 25 years with ease. The ones that can't make 25 years are likely to put the producer of such amps out of business long before 25 years has gone by!

@ihcho If you want to get the best out of a tube amplifier its really in your best interest to use a speaker that is 8 Ohms or more. Speakers that are hard to drive really don't show off any amplifier (tube or solid state) all that well.

This is simply because the harder the amp has to work, the more distortion its going to make. On top of that, with most tube amps you can lose up to an octave of bandwidth off of the bottom end by using the 4 Ohm tap as opposed to the 8 Ohm tap; and you need that 4 Ohm tap to work with 4 Ohm speakers!

You may recall that I advised you earlier about running a speaker of lower sensitivity; I said that 100 Watts would likely not be enough. What I didn't say is that you really want any amplifier to be loafing while doing its job.

Speakers don't have to be inefficient to have excellent definition! My speakers are 98dB and are some of the more revealing speakers I've heard. You also get greater dynamic contrast as the more efficient the speaker is, the less thermal compression it tends to have.

Quicksilver best stuff out there and the paranoia of mikes stuff being to cheap compared to other brands has to do with NO ADVERTISING DOUBLE THE PRICE IF YOU ADVERTISE PERIOD…WHEN WE WROTE THE BOOK PAUL WILBUR KLIPSCH THE LIFE THE LEGEND THE ONLY BIOGRAPHY OF PWK WE ADVERTISED IN STEREOPHILE A FEW MONTHS 5000.00 for a single page for one month you pay for that….so double his amp prices and then you get it….ive been dealing with MS and QS for 37 yrs since my 1st pair and his 6c33c triodes cost around 6 K AND I OWN 4 pair because I call them the worlds most perfect monoblocks and I did a side by side again LAMM 50 K MONOBLOCKS AND THE QS WAS THE KING 

"@smodtactical Is quicksilver warm and rich or more ss neutral and fast ?"

 

While Mike Sanders of Quicksilver already answered part of the question for you in Your Prior Post Here 5/22/23, I’ll add my .02 cents for what it’s worth about my QS.

1. Speakers used play a key part in the result

2. Preamplifier (SS or Tube) can impact results

3. Cables used can help or impact the sound

4. Source and/or DAC used matters too

5. Listening environment matters of course

 

For example:

My system includes a 6SN7 Triode tube preamplifier, a non-oversampling capable DAC, my choice of Cardas cables, with 93db 6ohm custom speakers for a type of sound I prefer. They match fairly well to my Quicksilver mono tube amps. Different output tubes in the QS amps can impart a smoother or more detailed sound too.

 

So, it depends, you can start out with a "neutral" sound as QS Mike suggests, you can also fine tune leaning in to warmer direction as your other threads inquire about. i.e. PSVANE CV181-TIIs tubes in my preamp tilt slightly towards a warmer result. You did not indicate what QS amps and what output tubes you are looking at, this matters too.  

 

Is quicksilver warm and rich or more ss neutral and fast ?

I used 4ohm from QS with both Gershman and Linbrook.

My preamp is Audible Illusions M3B. I also have Plinius M16P. To my ears, AI sounds much better.

I use two power conditioners (from Furman) from different wall plugs (15A, not dedicated). The power amps (both Plinius and QS) are connected to one power conditioner and the preamp is connected to the other.

I would also believe that drawing all powers from one wall plug will have an adverse effect on the overall sound.

Thanks much for your input.

@ihcho are you running the 4 or 8 ohm speaker taps on the back of the QS Monos --

• 8 or 4...with your 4ohm 90db Tyler speakers?
• 8 or 4...with your 6ohm 87db Gershman speakers?
• what preamp are you using to drive the QS monos?

A 3db speaker sensitivity difference there worth noting. Other things to check.  

FYI, a member on another forum was having unsolved headaches driving his 87db Gershman Grands’ with his powerful Bryston 14B amp (600w@8ohm / 900@4ohms). At first everyone thought it was a preamp gain / output voltage issue not able to drive the amp(s). As it turned out, he had his amps and gear all plugged into the same AC wall plug / circuit. To fix it, Installed two dedicated 20amp circuits, problem solved, amp was able to drive the Gershams Grands ok. 1) Check, try the 4ohm taps on the Monos if you have not done so yet. And, 2) try plugging QS monos in to a different wall plug not on the same circuit as the rest of your gear. Best of luck.

 

The answer is no if value your resale investment. Audioresearch and VAC will hold their value much better than quicksilver.

I recently purchased KT mono with KT150 which produces 100WPC. It took three and half months to get it. Ordered in mid Oct and received in early February. The problem was, they did not have transformers to build amps. 

Their serial number is 1 and 2. How often do you purchase an equipment with serial number 1?

I also have Plinius SA102 (upgraded from Galbo). My preamp is Audible Illusions M3B. I have two pairs of speakers: Gershman Grand Avant Garde and Tyler Linbrook systems (one piece). SA102 sounds beautiful with Gershman but Linbrook sounds much inferior. However, with KT mono, Linbrook sounds much better, but Gershman sounds a bit less dynamic and less bass with KT mono compared with Plinius.

It might be because Gershman is power hungry. The differences may be expected from a solid state amp and a tube amp. Overall, I've realized that Linbrook has more potential with different setup, and Plinius works very well with Gershman. 

Somehow I hoped QS KT mono would blow away Plinius in every aspect, but it was not a realistic expectation. Plinius SA102 with upgrade can compete well with any solid amps at around 10K, and I cannot possibly expect a tube amp at under 4K would outperform. 

Overall, I am satisfied with the purchase. KT mono is paired with LInbrook and Plinius is paired with Gershman. With two outputs from M3B, I can easily enjoy both tube and solid state amps without cable changes with the same sources -- OPPO 105 for digital and my analog sources (Ortofon SPUs and MC20 super, Denon 103r, AT150mlx, ...).

I have a pair of V-4 Monoblocs at 120 watts per channel. They use KT-88's 4 per side. Sound great imaging and the instruments are awesome.

Absolutely!  QS amps, are quiet, reliable, easy to mod or repair if needed.  I run my mid monos every day for 8-10 hours and they just work.  Spend some $ on some good small signal tubes and a couple of decent power cords and you’ve got great sounding reliable amps. 

@tubegroover What is the secret sauce? My guess and bet is the transformers, isn’t that generally the case in the best tube designs?

 

Yes, Transformers. +Proven circuit design, no circuit boards, clean point-to-point wiring, careful low-noise layout. Chassis, switches, connectors are nice. Secret simplicity works well with Quicksilver tube amps.  Sure like mine. Enjoy the music!  

 

What I can tell you is that Audio Research is super super reliable as long as you  take it normally.  With more than 25 years, you can use it in good condition.  What else tube amplifier could be that way? I do not know.

 

I just visited an audio friend who has the Magenapan 3.7i' powered by a very highly respected, with good reason, integrated amp with high current capabilities and a well matched pair of subwoofers. This guy is a sophisticated and highly respected audiophile AND passionate music lover. One could make the case that this would be considered "high end" audio at the pinnacle of performance. We all understand that hyperbole, at least some of us might in the context of who says so? I must say I was impressed, it was quite easy to be impressed. Can it be sustained over long term listening? This was a few days ago, exactly a week after I had just received my new pair of Magenapan 1.7.i speakers.  Reason I purchased was last listen to this same system 2 months earlier prior to intro of the subs. 

Fast forward to my initial intro. When I arrived home I listened to my new speakers with QS Silver 88 monos with a beloved Conrad Johnson preamp, a very satisfying combo. The difference between his system and mine was startling.  Most notably dynamics, bass impact and the extension in the upper frequencies. Or maybe a difference in the tweeters of the speakers?

Audio is about serving the music we love. The priorites we have predicate the choices we make. Experience helps with those choices. My choices may be different than another but the MOST  important factor isn't what anyone else likes or thinks is best.  Now the point, does QS amplification play with the big boys? Based on my experience and for the 7 years I've owned this amplifier and heard with numerous speakers is absolutely a YES! Does it have the absolute resolution (maybe) and dynamics of the above system, definitely not! Our rooms are different our speakers are different our priorities differ as well.   All I can say is even though Mike Sanders told me my amps wouldn't be the best choice with my 1.7i speakers, they draw me in for hours of blissful enjoyment. Bass is rounded and tuneful, midrange and upper frequencies can make you shed tears, if inclined to such a reaction especially on choral, oh my what a great  match. The harmonic resolution these amps are capable of take a backseat to nothing in my experience, piano can sound so real on the best recordings, oh and string quartets too. Not to worry they also are quite satisfying on rock. When you factor in the prices these amps sell for and upgrades possible, you end up with an exceptional value. What is the secret sauce? My guess and bet is the transformers, isn't that generally the case in the best tube designs?  The more expensive amps may have better component parts and in some cases larger power supplies that might make such amp a better choice in a given application, that's the only difference I can make out. Good is good, better and best is left to the buyer to decide.

 

 

[@lloydc] The Quicksilver amps look relatively easy to upgrade, e.g. better caps, being wired point-to-point and more classic than exotic; anyone doing that?

Yes.  Not totally necessary, yet ultra high-end caps and quality input/driver tubes do bring the sound of the monos to a level equal to amps at a much higher cost. 

WARNING -Do not Buy VTA amps if you have any issues with your line voltage, are they cheap-yes, do they sound ok-yes, I had nothing but constant issues with the VTA 120, I was told to make over 4 changes, none resolved the problems I was having, they are far from perfect, and there are many complaints about the electrical issues regarding the VTA 120 and 125s. I purchased the Quick Silver Monos, had them for over a year, they are perfect and can handle my voltage that can fluctuate over the 120s, no issues whatsoever.

All I can say is that any designer that references RDH3 as the foundation stone for learning about tube circuitry knows what he is talking about.

The Quicksilver amps look relatively easy to upgrade, e.g. better caps, being wired point-to-point and more classic than exotic; anyone doing that? 

The Quicksilver amps look relatively easy to upgrade, e.g. better caps, being wired point-to-point and more classic than exotic; anyone doing that? 

Warning; I own both a complex tubed amp-an ARC Ref 150 SE-and a fundamentally hair shirt simple amp-an Ampsandsound Nautilus SET. 
With that out of the way you may wonder why I consider my intro a warning. My answer would be that I have my biases. 
Take a look at the inside of an ARC Ref 150 SE 
 https://mans.io/item/audio-research/reference-150-se
Now take a look at the circuit of the A&S Nautilus
https://www.google.com/search?q=ampsandsound+nautilus&tbm=isch&hl=en&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS872...
Quicksilver amps are much more akin to the latter. Sure they are push-pull and implement some negative feedback but they stick to fundamentals of tube amp design. So what at the end of the day does all this mean? Imho it means greater reliability, more midrange purity, less definition and leading edge transient snap/punch, and overall a softer more relaxed sound. The ARC build-a-beast-approach with 26+ banked capacitors and complex circuitry-for a tubed amp-helps explain why all said and done it does not sound all that different from a good SS amp though it does have the advantage of serving up to the loudspeaker a current based input rather than voltage based. 
The lower parts count and simplicity-not to mention lower overhead, advertising and mark-up, all allow Quickies to be much more reasonably priced. 
Are they the same at a miraculously low price? No. Are they a wise choice so long as you like the approach and sound signature? Hell yes. 

I currently had an old pair of KT88 in my Mid Monos.... old, thousands of hours.  I thought it was time to replace and just retubed with JJ EL34.  These tubes sound great.   I had them before and one lost vacuum... I said that was my last pair but they sounded so good I had to give them another try

The Tubes4Hifi Vacuum Tube Audio (VTA) tube amps are excellent bang for the buck. Their service and support is wonderful, and they have a significant following.

Their factory wired M-125 monoblocks (125wpc) are $2700 plus shipping, less if you buy in kit form.  

Quicksilver are great amps. They cut non-sonic corners to allow great sonic bang for the buck. ALL amps REGARDLESS of COST can be improved - or not - depending on the system in which they reside.

M-125s can be made great sounding and reliable. They are at best a 50-50 proposition out of the box.
See  ieLogical VTA M-125 for results after 2 years and hundreds of hours of work. Read from the top for the whole sorry Tubes4HiFi story. Dozens have written  with similar tales of woe.

I guess they just discontinued the V4 Monos....   im sure something awesome is in the works....

@donvito
If ARC boat anchor gathering dust is being given away except for shipping, I would be interested. Feel free to contact me on Decware. I am safebelayer there as well. Or leave me a note on how to get ahold of you or your friend.

@donvito The HD220 is entirely fixable. It’s loosely based on On Semi’s reference design for thermaltrak devices.
The old production non DG designated output devices are End of Lifed but new ones are available on Mouser or Digikey.
Unless your friends tech was the one who replaced the bridge while the output stage clearly had a thermal runaway and fried the whole board, an HD220 amp that pulls standby after warm up is absolutely fixable. It’s just a bit of work and Audio research just doesn’t want to go through the trouble.

Great question by the OP. We all want our hard earned $ going towards quality. Most of us can't afford to play the high end merry-go-round.

In the past 30 years, I have owned VAC, Conrad Johnson, and Decware amps. I've listened extensively to ARC, BAT (sounds like solid state), Quicksilver, Lamm, Cary,  and VTL. They're all excellent, depending on what sounds you're hearing for. Some of the others spend more on aesthetics, Lamm & BAT for sure. As for better parts, I can say very confidently that VAC, CJ, BAT, and VTL use pedestrian parts. Those companies make extensive use of circuit boards as well. That doesn't make them bad, just an observation. VAC believes in maximizing the most out of the tubes. VAC is also the least friendly to using alternative tubes...kt88s almost exclusively. Not a bad thing, but also limited.
Each of these companies aim for a particular sound. Like others here have said, find what sound you like and get the best gear you can afford. If you like the QS sound, then you can spend more money on the preamp of your preference, or a phono stage, cartridge, etc.
Finally, of all the companies you've listed, I would stay away from BAT as their company infrastructure is now questionable. That means their support may not be there when you need it...and you will need it, we all need it regardless of company or amp. I'm not sure MusicDiirect is the most qualified distributor to help. They are also the least tube like amps I've ever heard.
VAC, QS, ARC, and VTL are known for their quality and service. All but QS, are also known to be very expensive. I'm not sure why given the aforementioned parts quality. On that subject, don't get me wrong, even pedestrian parts are good quality. Basically we're paying for design, marketing, and reputation.

My 2¢.
Great question and the audience you attracted have offered good advice.

Yes they are great. I have three sets of QS amps: Silver 60 (which Mike thinks are one of his best), mono 60, and mini. I use the minis 90% of the time, they are amazing. I also own 2 QsS preamps, the remote and not remote. I have the last version of the non remote, it is outstanding for the money. The remote is 95% as good, and is the one I am using now for the convenience of the remote. I also  have a Parasound JC2 (great preamp), but I like the QS preamps better. I think the QS Mini's have been the best value in audio, unfortunately discontinued now. 

**** But to your OP question: ’Yes’. ****

….. another reasons why, when Atmasphere speaks, I listen.

Btw, one of the nicest sounds I have ever heard from a stereo system: classic QS 60W monos driving Quad 63’s.

While we are extolling the virtues of Mike and QS, does he offer cap, resistor or other (non tube) upgrades? Just curious

Sorry folks, I didn't mean to imply that QS is one of those 'flash-in-the-pan' companies. It is undoubtedly a great company with a value-focused, no frills approach. I've owned two of their products in the past -- Quicksilver headphone amp and integrated amp. Like I said, excellent products "within their respective price brackets."

@decooney - what tubes are you using in the Mono 120s?  I have stock and am thinking of rolling.

The mono 120s are great units.  Hard to say how they compare with the big boys as I've never heard them head-to-head in the same system.  That said, it isn't clear what they are lacking in terms of performance.  I asked my dealer what would be better (the QS are one rung from the bottom of what he carries).  He demurred and said something about cosmetics, taste, etc.  

Yes, Quicksilver amplifiers are that good.  I'm currently listening with Quicksilver V4, and over the years have owned Quicksilver mini-mono, Quicksilver mid-mono, VTL ST150, VTL MB100, and Manley Labs 75+75.     
 
   

@incho - I don’t have much budget (under 5K) and my choice is either new QS or those other brands used.

Used or reconditioned units from "other brands" vs. Quicksilver new is how many end up buying QS. At first they are looked at as a "good value", and when paired with well matched speakers, and when the amps and tubes are well broken in, realization sets in that "hey, these amps sound good!". With great input/driver tubes, another step up.

With good tubes and my own cap upgrades (at your own risk), my Mono 120s and a good buddies Mid-Mono amps now sound well above their price point. Having owned several prior tube and ss amps, I’d now put my own QS Mono 120s up against other amps at 2-3x the price. Many of the QS amps in the lineup are nice, pairing with the right speakers for each level amp helps maximize the performance and sound. Best of luck.

Absolutely!

YES!

Absolutely, yes! My V4's were marvelous sounding. Traded for Levinson after combining dedicated audio and home theater into one room. Regret getting rid of them every time I listen to music. 

@ arafiq
Quicksilver is no flash-in-the-pan. Mike Sanders has been making great gear for 40 years. He will support anything no matter how old it is. My buddy tried to get his 10 year old Audio Research Hybrid HD220 power amp fixed and was told that parts are no longer available. He bought a pair of QS M120s and could not be happier. BTW, if you know anyone lookin’ for a 70 LB boat anchor there is one sittin’ in a basement collecting dust!

@ghdprentice

No, the big boys are not there because VAC and ARC buyers are stupid and susceptible to marketing and biased reviewers

+1

So very true. Marketing and biased reviewers can only take you so far. Companies like VAC and ARC have built their reputations over a very long period of time by consistently providing high levels of performance year after year, while many flash-in-the-pan companies fizzled out after their 15 minutes of fame.

@arafiq 

i have not auditioned QS. But experience with this kind of question in the past has always resulted in the support in your supposition. QS offers great value for the money, but not of the same level of performance. (No, the big boys are not there because VAC and ARC buyers are stupid and susceptible to marketing and biased reviewers).