Are High End Audio Products Unreliable?

I meant one accident.

The Concord SST had just two accidents over it's 27 year commercial history of flying, but because of the low quantity of passenger's it's safety record per passenger mile made it the least safest commercial transport in history. High performance has its price.

I agree with Ebm. Infant mortality is one thing, long term unreliability is another entirely. I'm pleased to hear any early problems you experienced have been resolved to your satisfaction, with a good local dealer to help. The bottom line, though, isn't just reliability, it's performance. They don't necessarily go hand in hand.

Nothing is 100% stuff happens!!

Quick update. I bought a Music Hall A15.2 integrated amp about two months ago. I hardly used it until a few nights ago. I was listening to my ipod through the mini jack on the front when the left channel went dead. Testing it showed that it was dead through and through, regardless of the source. So, it's in for repair now. Yet another product that I have had trouble with. The good news is that my local dealer is super easy to deal with and is taking care of it.
Because of all my bad luck I have started to buy only new products and mostly buying them locally. In the future I am considering mostly buying products from local companies in fact. I live in the Minneapolis area where there are many high end companies to choose from: Magnepan, Audio Research, Atmasphere, Bel Canto, to name a few.

Never had a problem with anything but French-made CD players. May they rot in hell.

I've generally had good luck with the reliability of high end products, with one exception: Meridian. I've owned a Meridian G68 for about 4 years and it has given me all kinds of trouble... overheating, a dead power supply, a front panel display that freezes up, the occasional shockingly loud POP, one of which fried a crossover in one of my speakers. Nightmare stuff. The MSRP of the unit at the time I bought it: $10k. Now: $12k.

When the power supply died, I sent the unit to Meridian service. They replaced it and charged me 8 times the cost of the power supply if I had bought it online, which would have been trivial. I'm a fool.

My experience with Meridian's unreliability and greed is definitely not idiosyncratic. If you browse the unofficial Meridian forum, you will see many similar stories.

I still own the Meridian. As I said, I'm a fool.

Bryon

I'm told it is the relay board that controls the remote that is bad. The problem varies between turning the amp on and the sound not working to the remote control not working. I guess it is a known issue and also a simple fix, but it does require me boxing it up and sending it in, which is expensive and time consuming. I will get it fixed and then look forward to many years of trouble-free listening, but I'm frustrated to say the least.

a better question is :

is there a correlation between price of product and reliability ?

It's not likely to ever happen, but the study that would be needed to determine reliability of high end audio products compared to others would be very interesting. Do high end audio products in general determine the high end in regards to reliability to go along with the big price tags and thereby lower total cost of ownership and increase the value proposition? Or are they no better or perhaps even worse than the rest in regards to reliability?

Higher reliability would help offset acquisition costs and make higher price tags more digestible for me, but I am skeptical that this is the case.

I see no positive correlation between price tags and reliability in general based on my purchases over the years.

In fact, I would have to say the higher end pieces I have owned over the years have also proved to typically involve more ongoing costs for maintenance and repair than the rest.

For example, high end tube gear involves periodic replacement of tubes to retain the good sound. PRices of tubes, especially those suited for high end audio application seem to be on the rise.

The highest end amp I have ever owned recently went in for a repair. THis was the first time in years I had an amp go bad on me. THe repairs were handled efficiently and for reasonable cost by the maker though I must say.

The highest end CD player I ever owned was a Cal Audio Ikon MkII which went in for expensive repairs on several occasions. CD players, especially transports, have always seemed to be relatively problematic though I must say.

On the other hand, my Linn turntable has been going strong since bought originally new back in the 80's and has been one of the most reliable pieces I have ever owned.

Snackeyp, so what problem is the SLI 80 giving you? I have an SLI 50, same basic chassis but different circuit which I've had for 16 years. During that time, I've had to replace the power switch and the selector switch.

The switches are a bit cheesey, but all in all not a bad repair record for that amount of time. I do love the sound of the Cary.

I do not agree.

In the $20K pricepoint level, price mY REGA ISIS valve cdp and the matched REGA OSIRIS integrated amp are both built like the proverbial brick s***house. Each pf the remotes weighs like a brick ... all top shelf. But then again it was all made in the UK.

The quality is unsurpassed and my experience with other high-end similar kit (NAIM, MARK LEVINSON, SIM AUDIO, CLASSE, CHORD ) is the same... LL built like a tank with no reliability problems and it will last you a lfetime.

Update: In my original post I mentioned the CARY SLI-80 that was bad and got replaced. The replacement WAS working good but now has developed the same problem as the one it replaces. Guess I'll be sending this one back and will be without an amp for a month. :(

Hi Jmegrogan2,
We`re obviously at polar ends of the spectrum and I`ll leave it at that. We are`nt going to change each others perspectives for sure. I`ll see you at the polls in November 2012.
Regards,

Charles1dad, Rush wouldn't know any logic if it hit him in the face with a two by four.

Perhaps some high end gear is more prone to failure because the typical high end "manufacturer" is a very small operation with perhaps one person doing all of the designing/engineering. That one person may not be the absolute best at all aspects of design (e.g., not a power supply specialist).

Also, with a small operation, there is less likelihood that a design has been tested to work under a wide variety of conditions. I know someone who had a DAC that was way too sensitive to static discharge (damaged from someone touching the controls). Likewise, I had experience with a phonostage that would shut down from the static discharge from a table/arm that was prone to such discharges no matter how it was grounded. Interestingly, both products came from Southern California--I bet they don't have the same kind of dry winter air we have on the East Coast. A friend had multiple failures of his tube amps made in England--the diodes in the rectifier simply could not handle the poorly regulated power of Northern Virginia (more robust diodes finally cured the problem.

Swampwalker I sent you an email last week but did`nt get a reply.It turns out someone locally will loan me his EML XLS and KR 300b tubes. Thanks again for your very kind offer.
Regards,

Charles1dad- You may have blown your chance to borrow my KRs and AVVTs ;-) Just kidding. Drop me an email if you are interested.

Swampwalker,

Not trying to start an arguement, but your analogy is a bit flawed. If those engines are expected to fail at those times and the user knows this, then there's no issue. If an amp is expected to last, say, 10 years and goes bad after 2, there's a problem. If a CD laser is expected to last 1000 hours and goes bad after 10, that's an issue.

I don't have the money most here have (no issue with that), but I've bought what I can reasonably afford. My decision to buy a Bryston B60 had a lot to do with their warranty and service. Spending that much money, I expect to have it for a very long time. They also upgraded it to SST status for very little money.

I really like Bryston's model - every piece gets played for 100 hours and a final check-out sheet with measurements before it leaves the factory. Their warranty coverage is as rock solid as I've seen it come. I know several who've bought older gear, and Bryston updated it for very little cost, relatively speaking.

I'm not saying Bryston is the only company who does any of these things though.

Larryi,
Rush would need two life times to equal the mangled logic of Bill Maher or Chris Matthews have provided.

I agree w Larryi and also point out that if you are operating on the bleeding edge, then you have to expect more failures. Nascar or F1 engines only go 500-600 miles or less between rebuild and or junking. Fuel dragster engines maybe a mile or 2. does that make them unreliable?

I don't know how anyone can go from one anecdotal account of a failure to a generalization about the product, the company producing the product and the company's country of origin. Rush Limbaugh would be proud of such leaps of logic (supporter of healthcare coverage for contraceptives to slut demanding payment for sex).

There could be a variety of reasons even good product lines will have occasional problems that are NOT the result of trying to cheat the customer, cutting corners, etc. Sometimes the company gets a bad batch of parts or the parts supplier changes the part without notifying its customers. This can happen to a company with a great record for reliability and quality control. An example of that would be the brief period of time when Basis motor controls were prone to premature failure. I own a Basis table and I am amazed at the machining tolerance of critical parts--no discernable runout issues with any of rotating parts--something I cannot say for some of the tables mentioned above.

I have great respect for Nottingham tables. But, I knew a dealer that had a brief period when several tables suffered motor failures in a matter of a few weeks after the sale. The distributor said that one batch of motors from the supplier were bad. These things happen.

I don't think high end gear is particularly prone to such failures, it is just more painfull when something expensive goes bad. What I have found is that most high end dealers work to get things right and make the customer happy even when that means doing repairs for free well outside of the warranty period.

Nottingham turntable motor is designed to run all the time, and from what I heard they do break too but rarely.
And how do you know that Thomas told you the truth? Not to mention that power switch. Nottingham has none. I say go British - Nottingham, SME, Simon Yorke. Or, of course, some American. Germans not needed.

03-03-12: Inna
"Megabuck German table with junk switch and unreliable motor? Are you kidding me? Thank you for telling us that. No TW Acustic for me. Ever".

Sorry, but I could'nt agree less. Firstly, by current insane standards for turntables, the Raven one is relatively cheap. Now $20,000+ seems routine these days.

Secondly, all gear can have problems, Thomas, the TW designer was clear that this was the first motor that had ever needed replacing, other than one other, injured by dropping the unit. That's pretty good.

03-03-12: Snackeyp
Sabai, why not name names?

You are new here Snackeyp, so I'll tell you why. Naming names will make this thread vanish into the abyss. So what's the point?

Sabai, why not name names? This is the kind of info the rest of us would like to know, otherwise you are not holding the manufacturers accountable. Their greatest motivation to make better products is consumers speak out.

Thanks

I agree. Expectations should be high for high-priced components. I had a high-end component go DOA out after a year. I was not a happy camper. It was no longer under warranty. In fact, shortly after they brought it to market a "defect" was noted. Being clever marketers, they discovered a way to profit from their mistake. They declared an "upgrade" -- at a cost of $$$$ to the customer. Nice.

I had my unit repaired -- and upgraded -- and then sold it off. It cost me a bundle. I would never buy a product from this company again despite the fact they are one of the most well-known companies in the industry and many people rave about them. I suspect there is a lot being swept under the audio carpet here.

After I sold it off I was able to find photos of the inside of my unit on Internet. Photos were conspicuously missing from their site. It was then that I knew I made the right decision. It was clear they had used the cheapest resistors and capacitors to produce these world-class units. They had found one more way to improve their bottom line at the expense of the customer.

What bothers me most about many of the replies here is the acceptance of things as they are.
I admit, I am one of those "consumer activists" who will call companies and bitch about their products if something doesn't work right.... When my friends make fun of me for doing this...I just say; You will thank me later when the next revision shows up on the market with improvements.

And the higher the price for a given product the greater my expectations.
I don't understand why $1000 amp or receiver can be absolutely quiet, but it's OK for $6000 unit to have a hum coming from the transformers (a hypothetical example based on some frequent question posted here).

Been in this since 1995. Still just a rookie. Owned Adcom, B&W, Harmon Kardon, JBL, Kef, Marantz, Mcintosh, Mirage, and Meridian. Some mid-fi some high-end. Never had any issues or need of service on anything. I might add any of the above listed got used, not abused, but respectively played for many hours as TV holds no candle to music. Have always shut off after use, speakers never under driven or pushed with too much power. IME all of the above were very reliable.

Megabuck German table with junk switch and unreliable motor? Are you kidding me? Thank you for telling us that. No TW Acustic for me. Ever.

Some items certainly seem to have a finite life, particularly CD players, which as someone has already said, will always have laser failure after some years. Usually the laser is no longer made. That is something to consider if you are looking at a $10000+ CD player, without a laser , it is junk.

Secondly, I have had problems with valves, not tube failure, you expect that, but thermal damage. As a class, they seem to be hard on the electronics. Still love them though.

As an example of good service, my 4 year old TW accustic Raven one turntable had a problem with the motor recently and an unreliable switch on the power supply. TW suppied a motor and GT audio in the UK, fitted it and replaced the switch, all for no charge.

Almost every piece of equipment I have bought has been defective in one way or another. Thank God for warranties!

The idea that people should respect each other's money is an excellent one.
To defend Rok2id a little. There are many with more often undeserved money than perhaps also undeserved brains. Whether current hi-fi mostly aims at them is, I think, debatable.

Yes. I've experienced defects or failures with Art Audio, CAT, Tom Evans, Joule Electra, EAR, Kharma (minor) and PS Audio, and Sonus Faber (minor).

I've had excellent reliability with Conrad Johnson, David Berning, Air Tight, Technics (sp-10), Audio Note, K and K, Transfiguration and Sumiko.

That is about 50:50 and too high to me.

The components are no more reliable than the people who build/service them.

If it works out of the box it must not be Hi End. Seriously, I won't take home a product from a dealer until he takes it out of the box and plugs it in and makes sure it works. I've had too many disappointments of unpacking a new component at home, all excited to see what it can do, and then it's DOA.

Failures in the field are minimal but I do have a back-up for every component. I expect some maintenance and repairs to play at this level.

From my experience - YES..and that hurts alot... after all, the "best sounding" amp is no better than a $400 receiver if you don't get to listen to music becasue it is broken again.
I have had some pieces that worked flawlessly but also had my share of equipment that either didn't work right or had some weird problems. I do feel that if I am willing to spend $5k or $10k on speakers or amp or whatever - the desinger / manufacturer should recognize the fact that this is relatively large sum of money for an audio equipment and proper attention should be paid to the quality of the product.
Most of my cheapo electronics never failed, but even if they did - I didn't feel so bad about it.
HOWEVER, when a $5k amp is not working right - I will surely remember that for a very long time.

I'm happy to say that although I've had some issues with my various digital sources from time to time, I have experienced absolutely no problems with my current monoblock SET in over four years of healthy use. Same for my pre amp and speakers these past two years +.

Regards,

Bighead63:

No insult was intended. I offer my apologies to anyone who took it that way. Belive it or not, I sometimes type before I think. After reading it again, I withdraw it.
Peace.

Rok2id "Today the high end business is aimed at a very few folks, most with more money than brains, so, It could be that the Boy geniuses working in their garage or the boutique makers in the mountains, are a lot better at desiging the outside than they are at designing the inside. More into magic / hype, than audio engineering. The make beautiful stuff, just not very reliable.
Lo-Fi Rules!"

Really? Nice way to insult people. Not everyone is just out to make beautiful stuff that doesn't work.

Also just because someone is willing to spend more money on something than you would makes them stupid? I think it is you being closed minded to come to an audio forum and post as if you know all, and insult people who you don't agree with.

This hobby is about learning and finding what you like. You found it, good for you. Don't insult those you don't agree with just because they want to spend money on something they like.

I have the same issue with the Furutech GT-40 DAC. I sent mine back and received another with the same problems. I've hooked it up to 2 different pc/mac and still getting the noise via usb.

I've tried different rca and usb cables...

Anyone familiar with Furutech's warranty service?

'
This is not my experience at all.

Cannot recall a component failing in a number of years, at any price point.

I've probably been a bit lucky, but the results are far different from the OPs experience.
.

Come to think of it a couple of CD players did die on me. I was told this was a common problem with the reading mechanisms. They were on the cheap side of "high end" but cost a fortune compared to "regular" cd players.

I've had enough problems over the last 30 years to make me think that the there is some basis to the title of this thread. I won't get into naming names, and I have had some great service experiences too. However, overall, I'd rather not need the service in the first place.

Not most some tukeys can always pop up.

The only units that ever gave me problems are CD players. Relatively short lives on early Sony and Micromega units that forced upgrades before i wanted to spend the extra money. Evrything else i have bought over some 30years has been problem free. Tanberg integrated, levinson 331, cj premier 14, B&W dm2000 speakers, Thiel 3.6, ar 2ax, sony receiver etc. I just purchased B&w 802 diamonds and classe 300 w per ch amp. No problems in the two months i have had them; but this is a little early to give them a thumbs up for reliability.

Maybe there`s some luck involved but I`m happy to say there have been zero problems with my current system which I`ve had for a while now.

Off hand I would suspect the higher end products too be more reliable having been built with better parts and a greater attention to detail which would be demanded by the high end buyer. At least from established firms. Even the new on the block small time maker, can little afford to put out junk.

The only thing that kind of broke was Purist Audio cables that I had to refil after ten years, and I bought them used in the first place. Other than that, apart from replacing a belt in CEC cd player after thousands of play hours, nothing.

Bizango1

I was not speaking of you. Your system seems to be that of a man who loves music. Hell, I could afford some of your stuff. :) Love the purple wall.
Peace.