Are cables really worth their high price because of their geometry?

@djones51

Ever so agree with what you say.
At least you seem to have the knack using words that pass the moderators.

I hadn’t, by mentioning the possible influence of a hearing aid in assessing the recommended results by e.g. advising battery/starter type automotive cables.

Been there done that some 25 years ago - but actually have moved on since that time, as the results proved there was no perceivable change in SQ. At all.
Eish! 😏
Michélle

This guy is completely wrong on his idiotic attempt recommending speaker cables. The effective DF has as much to do with the speaker motor, crossovers and FR than any cable. DF is figured by source, load and wire resistance the least of these is wire resistance. You don't need a battery cable for short cable runs it's nonsense.

You have already started your own SECOND thread on this subject ‘How to Select a Good Speaker Cable’ in case anybody is interested. Just because hardly anybody has shown any real interest there doesn’t mean they will show any here. Why don’t you leave discussions on your obsession back on your own thread where they belong and quit hijacking this one?

Mr.  alextobi7
My say regards speaker cables.
For interconnect, capacitance and inductance do matter.
But I'm not into IC cables.
For speaker cables, I'll stick to my ground.
When most cable makers, sale #14 to #12 cables, just because it is more convenient to make them - capacitance and inductance may influence.
But when you use a #4 awg or thicker, the series resistance is so low, that capacitance and inductance are negligible. 

Above should read Nordost, spell correct strikes again. 

I always look for an interconnect that is dynamically unconstrained and has the transparency which allows my system to exhibit chameleon like properties with respect to different components and recordings.
The best cable I have in that regard is some ungodly expensive Nordstrom interconnect I luckily got for a song, which effectively does the disappearing act to tee.
To those who think that all wire sounds the same, you are lucky.

I have the lower end Kimber Select (all copper)ICs in my system, linking Plinius amp to pre and linking Oppo 95 to pre. Is it my ear that will tell if I jump to Analysis Plus Apex Silver, that this was a good spend to upgrade my musical experience?
Thanks A

Considering that they and your bank balance are the only things that will be affected after their purchase, I would definitely say yes.
If they offer a more open window to the musical performance that you feel is commensurate with, or (if you are lucky) exceeds their cost buy them.
Try some alternatives before you make your final decision.

Please excuse my obvious lack of electrical engineering or math; can someone please give answers to below:
1.  The discussions above re inductance and capacitance, does this cable suitability refer to speaker cables only or does it include Inter Connects. Please elaborate differences if they exist and how.
2.   I have the lower end Kimber Select (all copper)ICs in my system, linking Plinius amp to pre and linking Oppo 95 to pre. Is it my ear that will tell if I jump to Analysis Plus Apex Silver, that this was a good spend to upgrade my musical experience?
Thanks A

If a person does not believe in cable capacitance and inductance will affect the sound, there is not much one can do to change that person mind.

Use spring type banana plugs as this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/8-Nakamichi-BFA-Banana-Plug-Connector-Audio-Adapter-Converter-24K-N0534E-USA/182432181660?_trkparms=aid%3D1110001%26algo%3DSPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225085%26meid%3D72613d089fca4a38b107a5e7b58c9eca%26pid%3D100012%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D271234103733%26itm%3D182432181660%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2047675&_trksid=p2047675.c100012.m1985
And you will never need to touch it.

If cables have been in place for a long time oxidation or other bi-metal effects can cause resistance and/or other reactance which is audible and usually not desirable.
Simply de-mating and mating the connectors often makes an audible difference.

This is good when you are happy with the sound...game over for you.
Good luck Chuck.

But for one who is chasing that happiness, how many tries and errors, with large cash spendings he need to get through?

Well, randomly, checking cables that sound better than the previous (compare with a far memory...think that your ears are a measuring instrument and relay on that?)
Or, ask for a calc. and go straight to the right cable.
More simple and way less costly.

If I would be from the cables industry (I'm not), I would definitely recommend and encourage your way.
Every time you try again, it's a profit in my wallet. Good for me.
Not so good for you... 😉

Measure with your ears. If it gets you where you like the sound be happy and roll with.  My cables make a difference they are upon and the highS are clear and extended. So fir my ear I’m happy all that matters 

@  sj00884

+1, thank you! 👍 😉

Michael

Simple really simple really, measure with your ears and damn the calculus and specs.

@pesky_wabbit

+1, thank you! 👍 😉

Michélle 

Audio cable companies are such a small subset of the wire electrical wire industry that it is highly unlikely that a manufacturer of cable will be able to justify the cost of producing a different weave of the stranding of the cable.
I had a Coda Fet 02b preamp which made a noise on one input when changing selections.  I contacted Coda and they told me it was an impedance mismatch with the cable.  I moved the cable to a different input and the noise moved to the other input selection.  I bought Innersound RCA cable for $50 for a meter pair and used them the noise disappeared.

  (Innersound manufactures electrostatic speakers)  Mr. Sanders from Innersound wrote a white paper about cables and he claimed that if a cable is manufactured correctly there will be no sonic difference between cables.
After that I stopped looking for the perfect cable and used Innersound.  They have since stopped making cables so I have gone with Blue Jeans cables from Seattle Washington.  They are high quality and don't break the bank.

Please don‘t hijack this thread and resurrect that tired old thread here. I think it has run its course. We already know you are the kenjit of speaker cables.

Mr. kennyc

A thick cable's resistance is so low, that the inductance and capacitance are negligible. So is the Ro of a high DF Amp.
Is that you confront me, or is an engineer at a white something website?

I was very opened minded. I'd found it. I know what makes a good cable better. I tried it myself. I made a few cables to my friends: they loved the results. And I came up on Audiogon, in 2018, did an experiment and the results were all on my favorit: stunning.

All industries says on cable:

Directional,
Cryo treated,
Bi wire,
Pure copper,
Silver over copper,
Skin effect,
Geometry,
Snake's oil

They were all checked (Open minded you claim) and found none relevant. All were deception to make people pay for something that do nothing. You may think that the Snake's oil is the worst.
No! its only the most obvious. The rest need a bit brain to dissolve.
None of your idea of "open minded" do not show any engineering or physical explanation, nor a compare to a conventional cable.
They are all stories. like the bible. I'm happy that on the cables you didn't gave the credit to God! 
Not to say, that according to my religion, God is off on Shabbat.
Well what about yourself sir, are you open minded to check mine?

@b4icu
Which part of the white papers do you disagree on? Did even read the white papers?

Your saying “The cable’s character that matters is its resistance.” so only resistance matters, but this seasoned cable engineer says that “A standard approach to any problem in audio cabling begins with some fundamental measurable attributes of wire and cable: R (resistance), L (inductance) and C (capacitance).”. Where’s your proof that this engineer is wrong?

And no, Belden is not “just” a raw cable manufacturer, they’re the company that manufacturers the Iconoclast cables. If you don’t know this, seems obvious that you didn’t even bother to look at the white papers.

I’ve got no skin in the game but I’m open minded to look at the evidence.

I mentioned Belden because this engineer has access to many expensive measuring, manufacturing, and other equipment that the typical audio cable manufacturer cannot afford.

I looked at your arguments and the engineers and frankly given his specific expertise and experience in designing and manufacturing cables I’d say the professional’s word in the field has more weight.

I mentioned you specifically because I assumed in your previous post you were asking for additional info/proof. But it seems your promoting your thread/ideas which implies you’re not open minded but rather opinionated. My intention was to help you. Apologies if I missed the mark.

Mr. kennyc

Sorry, you just used an old trick to deverse me to a website of no significance at all. There is no science involved in that site.
BS? a lot!

You really look for science?
The cable's character that matters is its resistance. 
As the cable is an extension of the Amp's Ro (DF) it's value of resistance shall be low, to keep the DF as close to it's given figures.

That can be calculated.
It will differ from system to system, by the Amp's DF and required cable length.

It works!
You are kindly invited to my thread of  How to select a good Speaker Cable
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/how-to-select-a-good-speaker-cable
Read the feedback of those who were interested in my theory and tried it out, for as little as US $100 or less.
After this try, cables purchased for thousands of $ went to storage.
Geometry?
First try a calculated thicker cable. That's more like science than  Geometry.

Belden is a respected raw cable manufacturer. They do not make Audio speaker cables. They make spools of cables: all kinds.
When I was with a VOA (Voice Of America) station RFP, they asked for Belden. They said specifically what cable (P/N) and how to treat it.
None was regarding  Audio speaker cables.

Using the Belden name is nice, but it doesn't impresses me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqFLXayD6e8
:-)

@b4icuIf If you want to find out about audio cable design from a rather scientific point of view, I suggest reading the Iconoclast “white papers - design briefs” where a seasoned cable designer/engineer shares his process/methodology of his designing Iconoclast cables using the resources/equipment of the large cable company Belden.https://www.iconoclastcable.com/story/

Mr.  andy2

I think it's the opposite. That is the higher the current, the more geometry matters.  

Could you please explain? Why?
The way I see it, geometry matters only for the profit line of those who sale it.

Investing in decent interconnects has saved me big bucks in the long run. They have enabled me to hear and enjoy almost exactly what I am buying upstream, not some filtered, dynamically compressed facsimile thereof. Had I not, I could have made some choices I would have regretted later down the track.

As the amount of current the cables carry increase, the geometry matters less and less.

I think it's the opposite.  That is the higher the current, the more geometry matters.  

The lower the signal a cable carries, the more important its SHIELDING becomes. If the geometry helps to achieve that and/or reduce stray capacitance and/or inductance, then maybe it is worth the extra cost, but NOT by much. I bought a $10 phono shielded cable from Amazon ( https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016QVZF06/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 ) and compared it to another shielded phono cable costing in excess of $400 and there was absolutely NO difference in the sound except the $390.

As the amount of current the cables carry increase, the geometry matters less and less. In that situation about the only criteria that matters is to reduce the resistance of the wire by choosing it to be thicker.

Other than that, the rest is snake oil.

Try tiriod wire

Are cables really worth their high price because of their geometry?

For me, cables really worth their high price because of their sound in my system.  IMO, one's paying for someone's SKILL and KNOWLEDGE in building cables that fit's your taste and NOT from raw materials.  

I made some DIY cables that sound very very good and bested many expensive ones.   Ultimately my recipe was no match and had to open my wallet for some expensive ones.

ALL cables have a "geometry" - it refers the manner in which the wires in a cable are situated with respect to each other inside the cable sleeve (if it has one). Some examples of geometry are...

Teo audio's audio cables don't have a geometry, per se.

They don't mechanistically and/or quantumly or atomically possess the ability to respond or integrate with signal -like wire does.

Everything involving a liquid metal and signal, as a living breathing pair, is different than that of wire and integration with signal.

That is why it (liquid metal) has it's own wholly different areas in fundamental physics, as compared to 'wire'. Areas in fundamental physics which are, at this point viewed as almost infinitely more complex than that of wire.

Areas that remain mathematically and theoretically unsolved. Proposed and tested and math developed for some of it, but not verified by experiment. Ie, still unbounded.

@b4icu - ALL cables have a "geometry" - it refers the manner in which the wires in a cable are situated with respect to each other inside the cable sleeve (if it has one). Some examples of geometry are...
- parallel - such as Van den Hul speaker cables.
- twisted pairs - some are tightly twisted (and often referred to as Helix) and some have a "longer" twist like some Beldon cables
- ribbon - such as TOTL Nordost speaker cables
- braided - such as the lower end Kimber Kable cables
- Helix - this term has been used by many different brands and may actually refer to some very different geometries, so as a "term" you should not think they are all the same.

Geometry, as a "term", has been around for many years e.g. Kimber has always promoted their braided geometry. But referring to "geometry" by sales people may be something new.

Good Brands mostly reveal the geometry of their cables, often because they are difficult to replicate. If a brand does not reveal it’s geometry, I tend to shy away from them.

From all of the auditioning of cables and connectors I have performed over the past few years (literally hundreds of hours), I have found that the ear is amazingly good at detecting extremely fine details, i.e. once the observer knows what to listen for. I have also found that to hear the differences requires time to allow the cables/connectors to settle/burn-in.

Unfortunately for the consumer, my approach may not be a viable option. But the one thing I tell people is - when auditioning anything - take along your favorite LIVE RECORDING and listen for venue acoustics, those little echoes and reverberations present in the background, because these are the sounds that high resolving gear/cables will really bring out

When it comes to cable selection, the terms used in the advertising literature are sometimes "misrepresented", so how does a consumer proceed?
- with the internet it is quite easy to lookup information pertaining to the brands being considered - look for diagrams or explanation on how the cable is constructed
- ask people on this forum for their opinions on a cable’s performance
- self education on the various hyperbole being used by sales people to gain an understanding.

But the only real acid "test" is to try different cables - preferably in your own system...
- maybe a store will have loaners

OR - ask a store to audition a couple of different brands, but in the best system they have.

I once asked to audition a $600 streamer in a $60,000 system - the sales person obliged and got the sale - all for a 5 minute demo. It demonstrated just how good that streamer could perform - good cables will respond accordingly.

Hope that helps Steve

Please help me out on this Geometry idea.
Is it comes to replace all others:
Bi wire
High purity OFC cable
Directional
Cryo treatment
Silver over copper
Skin Effect
Snake oil...
Or all still apply but the geometry was just added to the list?

Do we have any proof (measured, scientific or other), that shows any advantage of a cable with geometry vs a none geometry cable?
Or we just need to take the manufacturer and sales guys for granted?

I need to admit, that the list above, shows of great creativity.
I would also give them the credit of the convincing, as so many fall in and reached to their wallets...till the next idea came out, and it worked again and again.

But at the bottom line, after we all had our lesson, spending on no good cables, How come no one ever wondered, why do different cables sound different on your system?
As if it does, there is a physical or electrical relation between a better sounding and a less good sounding cable.
Did ever, a cable maker stepped up to say:

This is why cable A, sounds better than cable B ?

And please don’t bring up any of the list explanations. as none apply!
I figured it up guys. 
It works and works well.

I surmise that most audio cable naysayers cannot reconcile the cable's individual component costs with the final price.  Looking from this angle I can see how high cable prices can rub folks the wrong way.

However, I don't consider the manufacturing costs/retail price, rather, I focus on price/performance. 
For instance:
Option "A" use inexpensive cables
Option "B"  try out a say $200 cable hopefully for free (borrow, returnable).  Then I can decide if there is an uptick in performance, am I willing to pay $200 for this uptick?  I can still not purchase and be no worse than option "A".
With option "B", at least I have choices and additional information (a data point) with zero $ invested and the possibility to elevate my system.  
I suspect that many naysayers are not even willing to try, being emotionally resentful of the often steep pricing and entrenching their resentment with some argument.  

I'm also of the belief that everything in the audio chain matters.  Whether cables should be elevated to component level is subjective.  For me, because I believe cables sound different from one another, I treat them as components.  As I move up the audio food chain, I don't want my cables to be the weak bottleneck.

I agree that a lot of audio cable manufacture's advertisement/marketing is filled with a lot of subjective marketing hype, but I don't it reaches the level as being BS since BS can mean deceitful/lying. 

When researching/shopping for components, I give the most weight to opinions of audiophiles who has purchased/used the component with no skin in the game (like a dealer peddling his product).  If enough voices sing the same tune, I'm of the belief that I can obtain similar results if purchased - the caveat of course is it can be system dependent.  I give little/no value to manufacturer's hype.

Is a person who purchases a expensive audio cable being duped by marketing hype, placebo, or false imagination?  I'd say generally no, at least for the very expensive cables.  Seems most are educated professionals (with incomes enough to further splurge in this high-end hobby) who when you read their reviews/posts, are very serious about the performance of their systems and are deliberate/thoughtful on why they purchased the cable and how it performs. 
I don't believe that as the price of cables increase, their testimony validity decreases.  If so, what's that based on?

Audio BS Facebook group?  Taking a magnifying glass to outliers and calling it the truth is misleading.  You need to get an "impartial" sample size(s) to be able to make educated guesses/claims regarding the population as a whole.

Mr. justmetoo

Do speaker cables have DF?
NO
Amp's have.
So the speaker cable is calculated per DF and length.
Still, resistance is all that matters.
Some had tried it, and the feedback was amazing.

Here we go again. 

My experience is that the tech is not all mumbo jumbo.  That said, in my new system I shopped for cables last and found that the prices in many cases were out of sight.  I found that the cost of new cables even in the middle of most manufacturers product lines were too high as a percent of the total system price, even when discarding the old adage of percentage allocations to different parts of a system which I realize no longer holds true.  That led me to believe that cables have become a good way for dealers to maintain their overall margins, particularly when putting together a system price.  Brick and mortar retailers have high overhead, so that's just the way the economics work.  You can see this same principle at play if you purchase "regular" av cables at Best Buy vs., say Monoprice.  My solution was to shoot for established manufacturers with a good quality "story" and reputation and then find open box or used, which I did.  I feel I got good value that way.

^^^ I am glad you were able to get a huge improvement over the Blue Jeans.  I used to have Blue Jeans speaker cables and interconnects but it was easily bested by a set of QED cables that didn't cost that much more than Blue Jeans.

I don‘t know whether it’s their geometry, and I don‘t care, but getting a full set of Cardas Gold Reference interconnects at knockdown prices from Parts Connexion was probably one of the best audio investments I have ever made.
A huge upgrade from Blue Jeans, and have revealed every upgrade I have made in spades. They appear very clear in comparison and do not seem to impose to impose any signature of their own which masks changes I make.
It was easy to get a handle on the Blue Jean‘s sonic signature. Not these. Worth every penny and more.

Breaking news to you @scott22: people who buy expensive cables do so with after tax money. Meaning the government wants their share first, and you get to spend what’s left after from your gross income after taxes withheld either through payroll or quarterly estimated payments, or at annual tax time. Just a small clarification in case you don’t pay income tax perhaps because of lack of income. 

Also, statistically, people with high income give more to charity than people with low income. Look it up

If you buy more expensive cables, you will be paying more tax. Win/win yes? 

@thyname - I’m retired, so I have some time.:-)

I don’t normally participate this enthusiastically - I generally just post my observations and leave it for others to read/decide

But geometry, metallurgy and insulation is sort of "my thing"

I and many others, from Austria, Bulgaria, Australia, Canada, USA, New Zealand, Hong Kong, have looked at these three things closely and we consider our OBSERVATIONS, yes - hundreds of hours (and that’s just ME) of actual listening time, is a pretty darn good indication that selecting the right geometry with the right wire & insulation DOES provide the very best in sound quality.

So when people on this forum extol the virtues of "ZIP CORD" - I figure the rest of the world deserves to hear a little from "the other camp" just to balance things out - to allow them to make an "informed decision"

Don’t get me wrong - Zip cord does "the job"
- but it is a far cry from "the very best job"

Regards - Steve

I know jack about cables or for that matter about high end audio but I do know that spending four figures on the wire is a waste of money for most people. That opportunity cost could go towards better speakers, or towards other enjoyable hobbies or activities. Cleary if you have that type of disposable income perhaps you need to pay more taxes or donate to some worthy cause and just make do with you three-figure a ft. cables.    

russbutton,
I agree with willie's post above that you should enjoy what you have. However it kind of sounds like you don't want to spend the money on anything other than zip cord so are challenging the improvement others hear with high end speaker cable.  

@russbutton - you are obviously very happy with your system and cables

So - just enjoy the music :-)

Regards - steve

Steve @williewonka : you are 100% spot on with your very knowledgeable posts. However, I am afraid you are wasting your time with “Audio BS” types. You may not realize, but their hobby is not the audio hobby. Their hobby is hating the audio hobby. A clear form of the recently popular cancel culture 

Audio BS Facebook group?! LOL!!! You guys of Audio BS are so much into BS, that you are clearly BS-ing yourself with your made up BS story. Doesn’t it get a bit boring discussing BS among yourselves all the time? Sad life my friend, too bad you spend it feeling miserable. Life is good.... you should enjoy it.

Sooo..., one time, in a band camp....

@williewonka Siegfried Linkwitz, who knew a thing or two about audio engineering, used 14 gauge zip cord.   Given that my Linkwitz Orions use four channels of amplification on each side, with 25 foot cable runs to each side, 200 feet of anything other than zip cord would require taking a new line of credit on the house.  Few audiophile visitors leave my home without some amount of envy.

@russbutton - yes your buddy’s little "trick" only proved a well known fact...
- i.e. some people that sell audio components have poor hearing - really !

I have come across sales people that have connected speakers out of phase and were unable to detect the problem. So they have no hope at all at telling which cable performs best based on their "listening abilities".

Lets face it - most audio stores are in it to make money and cables are a hot item once a component or system is sold. But they have to sell "established" brands.

This is why so many of the smaller cable companies sell direct and hope word of mouth gets them the sales they are after

I’ve tried many times to promote a lesser know brand of cable that performs extremely well - to my local stores.

But Stores are driven by their customers, who want established brands because of their resale value. So quality cables from a lessor known brand never get a fair shake.

Basically - it is up to the customer - trust your ears

If you cannot tell the difference between two cables, not a problem - stick with the cables you have.- you’ve just saved a ton of money.

But some of us ARE ABLE to notice the difference between cables - trust me :-)

Regards - Steve