though I sure see many many more seven figure cars than music systems
Are audiophiles still out of their minds?
I've been in this hobby for 30 years and owned many gears throughout the years, but never that many cables. I know cables can make a difference in sound quality of your system, but never dramatic like changing speakers, amplifiers, or even more importantly room treatment. Yes, I've evaluated many vaunted cables at dealers and at home over the years, but never heard dramatic effect that I would plunk $5000 for a cable. The most I've ever spent was $2700 for pair of speaker cables, and I kinda regret it to this day. So when I see cable manufacturers charging 5 figures for their latest and "greatest" speaker cables, PC, and ICs, I have to ask myself who buys this stuff. Why would you buy a $10k+ cable, when there are so many great speakers, amplifiers, DACs for that kind of money, or room treatment that would have greater effect on your systems sound? May be I'm getting ornery with age, like the water boy says in Adam Sandler's movie.
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David12, I didn't start this thread to start a flame war. Recently I looked into speaker purchase, and someone on another forum started a thread on cabling for the speaker I was interested in. The cabling for the whole system costs over $100k. Yes, that's not a typo. For that kind of money you can build a kickass dedicated audio room or put a downpayment on a second home. Or feed a needy child for many years, if you're inclined to donate. If one has that kind of money to throw around for cabling, I'm not here to stop him. I just think he needs a reality check. Everyone draws the line somewhere, but high end has become comically retarded. |
I was wondering, should there be a warning over threads like this, perhaps a skull and cross bones, or "Warning, minefield, enter at your peril." Perhaps it would reduce long term health costs, particularly Blood Pressure meds. Like Spring following winter, so it seems the same unanswerable threads seem to come up again and again. My cents worth: Do Cables make a difference? Yes I am sure they do, having heard convincing demos at various shows, particularly one by Zensati. Mind you, their top cables come in at over $30,000, each that is, not for a whole set. Is it worth spending loads of money on cables? Well it's your money, you decide. For myself, if I had 10 or 20,000 dollars to spend on cable, which I don't, I would sleep better if I gave it to charity instead, but that's just me. There, I feel better for getting that off my chest. |
Phusis, although you can try "natural" acoustic treatments as you describe it, they are nowhere nearly as effective as absorbers and diffusors that are made based on mathematic calculations from acoustic theory. For example, book selves filled with books do minimal or no diffusing. I was dissapointed when I found out. Believe me, I've tried using plants, rugs, bookshelves, couches, etc. In a problematic room, these don't come anywhere close to real diffusors and absorbers. |
faster61woman I'm far more in agreement with you on this than not, relative to some aspects. Room acoustics is a big factor and contributor to the overall sound of ones audio system, but I much prefer tweaking acoustics with "natural" environmental aids than those typically pre-manufactured that absorb sound more than they diffuse. Diffusion to my ears leaves a vital element of energy and "aliveness" intact, though a certain (preferably minimum) amount of absorption seems necessary. Taste is another factor, I guess; to me the threshold of the level of absorption hits earlier than others, but where the reverberative nature of the acoustics may still be too prevalent I seek to minimize via diffusion. It's a balance that takes some trial and error to attain, where my preference into acoustical behavior is tilted towards that which is slightly more alive/reverberative. The careful arrangement of plants, bookshelf, rugs (a big cow skin on a wooden floor in my case) and furniture can bring you a long way - indeed I prefer natural materials to achieve this. Added to this my speakers are all-horn equipped which makes them more directive in nature, and so downplays some much of the contribution of the room. |
Nice try, geoffkait, I bought my $2700 cables 5 years ago. Adjusting for inflation, the price hasn’t changed much at all given the slow growth of our economy. And any cable with asking price $2700 is still too expensive today, IMO. 20 years ago, I was a poor kid in graduate school and couldn’t even afford a $50 cable, even though I was bitten by the audiophile fever. But didn’t I admit I regretted the purchase to begin with? Why try to dig up crap where it doesn't exist? |
Dracule wrote, " I know cables can make a difference in sound quality of your system, but never dramatic like changing speakers, amplifiers, or even more importantly room treatment. Yes, I’ve evaluated many vaunted cables at dealers and at home over the years, but never heard dramatic effect that I would plunk $5000 for a cable. The most I’ve ever spent was $2700 for pair of speaker cables, and I kinda regret it to this day. So when I see cable manufacturers charging 5 figures for their latest and "greatest" speaker cables, PC, and ICs, I have to ask myself who buys this stuff." Well, it all depends on how you look at it. If you bought a pair of speaker cables for $2700 twenty years ago, then taking into account inflation those same cables would sell for what in today’s dollars, more than $6,000? You ask, who buys this stuff? Apparently it’s folks like you. ;-) |
Faster61woman, acoustic room treatment -- now that's a subject really worth deep discussion! It perplexes me to no end when audiophiles spend $10k on speaker cables, and you find their system is in a room with no acoustic treatment other than their furniture. With only $2-3k in room treatment, you can greatly improve the sound of your system, sometimes more dramatically than buying new speakers. Everything sounds so much better, including your $10k speaker wire 😏, when you have a properly treated room. |
Dear Callaway, my current system includes Raidho D2 (waiting fir my D2.1 to arrive), completely rebuilt QUAD ESL 57, Ridge Street Audio Sason (out of business now), Silverline Minuet, slightly modded Bob Carver Cherry 180 (kickass 200 watt tube mono blocks with Vcap, Goldpoint input attenuator), Bedini 25/25 1Meg, Pioneer M20 (vintage class A 30 watt SS amp), Lampizator Golden Gate DAC, Audial Model S DAC with Double Crown TDA1541 chip, Tortuga Audio LDR preamp, and modded Acurus RL11 preamp (surprisingly good). My music server is the dB Audio Labs Revolution server which is a completely reworked quad core Mac Mini with battery power supply, SD memory, gamer RAM, and rewritten Mac OS source code to improve audio quality. It includes dB Audio Labs' version of Audiovarna music software. All this for under $2k with money back guarantee. Sad, hardly anyone knows about this gem of a music server. Instead all these PC based servers costing $5 to $20k get all the attention in the media. I built a dedicated windowless, audio only room measuring 17x22’ with 10’ ceiling with two dedicated AC lines and extensive acoustic absorption and diffusion treatments. My AC line is treated with Environmental Potentials filtering/protection system at the mains box of the house. As for cabling, I use various manufacturers including some DIY, but none are overrated megabuck cabling. Like I said, the most expensive cables I have are my $2700 silver ribbon speaker cables by the now defunct Ridge Street Audio. They are very natural sounding cables with no silver brightness of most silver cables, but I still think they are too expensive. I can only justify its cost because of the amount of high quality silver (couple of pounds), hand manufacturing, and clever terminal-less spades which are contiguous extension of the ribbon wire. I’ve done many comparisons of mega expensive cables in the past and found them wanting. They may do audiophile things well like imaging and soundstaging, but faulter on natural timbre of acoustic instruments and vocals. |
jmcgrogan2 5,311 posts 06-05-2016 2:52pm I’m wondering, why all of the hoopla over expensive wire/fuses? Why don’t we fuss over acoustic treatments more? "Wires have been the low hanging fruit in this hobby for decades now for those that enjoy a good troll thread. Fuses are relatively new to the party." That’s true. The cable controversy has been around what, since around the late 70s? I’m thinking of the Fulton Gold and Polk Audio cables, even Monster Cable. OK let’s say 1980, that’s 36 years ago. Fuses on the other hand have only been controversial for what, fifteen years? Anyway, they've proven themselves to be excellent conversation starters over the years. Directionality of wire? I’m guessing 25 years. GK |
I'm wondering, why all of the hoopla over expensive wire/fuses? Why don't we fuss over acoustic treatments more? Wires have been the low hanging fruit in this hobby for decades now for those that enjoy a good troll thread. Fuses are relatively new to the party. It's all in good fun, some simply live to stir the hornets nest. It's the only thing that gives their lives "purpose". Welcome to the jungle!! |
facten 542 posts 06-05-2016 11:28am "If you are doing this you really need to get yourself into therapy" Geoffkait: no more lying awake nights over imperfections in your fuse holder I might need therapy but not for anything related to fuses or fuse holders as I don't use fuses or fuse holders. I don't bypass fuses. Heck, I don't even use the house AC. Tootles |
I'm reminded of an incident in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" where on a road trip the author has manufactured from a beer can a solution to his friend's problem with the friend's expensive motorcycle needing a shim. The friend was appreciative but although the solution was dealt with long term he had to immediately have the shim replaced with a factory piece at high cost. His motorcycle deserved nothing less. |
Interesting that none of the commenters on 10K+ cables and expensive fuses has mentioned any experience listening to and comparing them... You must be in the wrong thread. I have seen many comparisons of fuses and cables in other threads. Search for them, there are plenty out there. It would seem pointless to share any experiences in this thread. No sense feeding the trolls. |
almarg6,430 posts06-04-2016 5:29pm
To which Al replied, "Having had a great many interchanges with Geoff in these forums, no, I don’t think that was his point. Good catch, AL. :-) More to the point, please mote, contrary to naysayer claims, audiophile grade fuses don't have to cost an arm and a leg, e.g., Acme fuse is $12. I would be remiss not to point out Acme also sells a silver plated fuse holder, you know, for a nice smooth interface with the silver end caps of their silver fuses and other high end fuses. No more angst over dissimilar metals and no more lying awake nights over imperfections in your fuse holder. Problem solved. Geoff Kait machine dynamica no goats no glory |
mitch2 1,253 posts 06-04-2016 5:03pm "Geoff said, "For sale on Audiogon as we speak SR Black Fuse...(lots of stuff edited)....250v Slow-Blow $89.95" Sorry for my sluggishness today but was there a point buried somewhere in the quoted post?" You might consider asking Dracule. I bet he gets it. Cheers, Geoff Kait Machina Dramatica advanced audio conceits |
For sale on Audiogon as we speak SR Black Fuse $120 and Audio Magic Beeswax Fuse $175. If I used fuses I image I’d probably get the Beeswax figuring it would probably get me in the ball park. ;-) Acme Audio Silver Ceramic Fuse Cryogenic Treated with Special Sauce $16. Without Special Sauce $12. Cannot beat with stick. From The Cable Company’s fuse page, Showing Results for Fuses Records: 1 Through 27 of 27 Sort by Category, Brand or Retail Price Category Brand Model Retail Price Fuses Audio Magic Nano-Liquid Premium $69.00 Fuses Audio Magic Premier Bees Wax Super Fuse $175.00 Fuses Audio Magic Premier Super Fuse $135.00 Fuses Audio Magic The Super Fuse $105.00 Fuses Furutech T-13A (R) Fuse for UK 13A Connector $85.54 Fuses Furutech TF (5x20mm) $58.00 Fuses Furutech TF (6x32mm) $65.00 Fuses HIFi-Tuning 38mm Special (10.3x38mm) Fuses $49.95 Fuses HIFi-Tuning Supreme Large (6.3x32mm) Fast Blow (F) Type $89.95 Fuses HIFi-Tuning Supreme Large (6.3x32mm) Slow Blow (T) Type $89.95 Fuses HIFi-Tuning Supreme Small (20mm/.75) Fast Blow (F) Type $69.95 Fuses HIFi-Tuning Supreme Small (20mm/.75) Slow Blow (T) Type $69.95 Fuses HIFi-Tuning UK (25.4mm/ 1") Fuses $59.95 Fuses Isoclean Power Large (6 x 31.8mm) $49.00 Fuses Isoclean Power Small (5 x 20mm) $49.00 Fuses Synergistic Research Black Quantum Fuse Large (6.3x32mm) 500v Fast-Blo $129.95 Fuses Synergistic Research Black Quantum Fuse Large (6.3x32mm) 500v Slo-Blo $129.95 Fuses Synergistic Research Black Quantum Fuse Small (5x20mm) 250v Fast-Blow $119.95 Fuses Synergistic Research Black Quantum Fuse Small (5x20mm) 250v Slo-Blo $119.95 Fuses Synergistic Research Quantum Fuse Large (6.3x32mm) 500v Fast-Blo $69.95 Fuses Synergistic Research Quantum Fuse Large (6.3x32mm) 500v Slow-Blo $69.95 Fuses Synergistic Research Quantum Fuse Small (5x20mm) 250v Fast-Blo $59.95 Fuses Synergistic Research Quantum Fuse Small (5x20mm) 250v Slow-Blo $59.95 Fuses Synergistic Research Red Quantum Fuse Large (6.3x32mm) 500v Fast-Blo $99.95 Fuses Synergistic Research Red Quantum Fuse Large (6.3x32mm) 500v Slow-Blo $99.95 Fuses Synergistic Research Red Quantum Fuse Small (5x20mm) 250v Fast-Blow $89.95 Fuses Synergistic Research Red Quantum Fuse Small (5x20mm) 250v Slow-Blow $89.95 |
"We audiophiles often shoot ourselves in the foot with our own stupidity."I certainly understand how that appears to be true but it is a value statement that only the buyer can resolve based on their own system, tastes and wallet. I had a manufacturer once tell me about a new component they had released, "I made the mistake of not pricing it high enough."Thus raises the often debated question of whether the price of audio gear should be based on manufacturing costs (as many like to point out when arguing against high priced gear) or sound quality relative to other gear in a similar price range (which is an argument for purchasing high priced gear). At the end of the day, manufacturers decide which niche of the market they are after and manufacture and price their gear accordingly. The market decides whether they chose wisely or poorly. I jumped out of the cable game a long time ago and have found the WE wire to sound excellent as speaker cables and power cables in my system. I was less impressed by the Belden wire used as ICs, instead choosing to use a high quality/purity copper-in-cotton wire that I have found to sound very good. |
Philipwu, not a dumb question at all. What is dumb is the person who came up with the idea that 15-20% of your system should be spent on cables. It was probably cable manufacturers who brain washed gullible audiophiles to spend that much on cables. I've been in this hobby for 30 years, and you hear all kinds of BS based on no credible evidence. Like some have said, you can replace $2000 worth of cables with another for $250 and get better results because of system synergy. Unfortunately, there are audiofools who will not consider a component worthy unless it costs above a certain price point. So to accommodate these fools, manufactures will purposely make components expensive by adding bling to the chassis but doing nothing to the all important circuitry. A friend, who is a manufacturer of audio gear, once told me you won't get press or attention unless you make the chassis huge and substantial and charge a hefty sum. It is not unusual for some high end gear with 30-40% of its cost just in the chassis work. So that $50k amp you're drooling over is largely made up of bling that doesn't improve the sound. Clever marketing will claim the substantial chassis is for resonance control, I know of another famous audio designer who came up with a very efficient component with small footprint, but his customers complained it wasn't big enough. So he just put the same circuit in a bigger macho looking chassis which drove up the cost. We audiophiles often shoot ourselves in the foot with our own stupidity. |
hello , whenever some audiophiles or reviewer suggest spending about 15-20% of the cost on cables base on your total audio system cost. Do they mean per cable or the total cabling cost in the system? if a hifi system cost $10k, do i spend about $2000 on all cables combine? or per piece of cable about $2000? any answer? pardon please if it sounded dumb question! Thanks! |
Two people above wrote about belden and Western Electric cable. I have removed some Sablon Pantella adn Crystal cable interconnects and replaced with a Beldin and Western electric interconnect. Replaced a High Diamond 8 speaker cable with a 14 Gauge Western electric speaker cable. My system has never sounded better. Replaced $3200 worth of cables with $250 worth of cables for real improvements in sound Alan |
Such decisions are based on individual value systems, free markets, and free will. An individual's failure to understand another's decision paradigm or share his resources doesn't justify criticism. People have the money to spend or the markets wouldn't be there to serve the consumer. One man's dollar is another's $10,000. |
