I've been in this hobby for 30 years and owned many gears throughout the years, but never that many cables. I know cables can make a difference in sound quality of your system, but never dramatic like changing speakers, amplifiers, or even more importantly room treatment. Yes, I've evaluated many vaunted cables at dealers and at home over the years, but never heard dramatic effect that I would plunk $5000 for a cable. The most I've ever spent was $2700 for pair of speaker cables, and I kinda regret it to this day. So when I see cable manufacturers charging 5 figures for their latest and "greatest" speaker cables, PC, and ICs, I have to ask myself who buys this stuff. Why would you buy a $10k+ cable, when there are so many great speakers, amplifiers, DACs for that kind of money, or room treatment that would have greater effect on your systems sound? May be I'm getting ornery with age, like the water boy says in Adam Sandler's movie.
I’m pretty sure no self respecting audiophile pays retail. Not in this economy. I also suspect one reason why some audiophile products are priced so high is because of the cost of maintaining dealer networks. Like the $500 toilet seat it depends on how many of a particular thing one expects to sell or if each one is customized, etc. As well as developmental costs, cost of advertising, whatever. Not to mention whatever the market will bare.
As a 35 year Audiophile, and Hifi store owner in thd U.K I learned many lessons Being from the states when I arrived in the U.K I went looking to see which brands I would stock. U.S products were being jacked up in some cases over 100%. I educated the people on these practices. Which helped me gain respect. The first years because of all the scams out there and many from U.S in yhd 2000 To 2006 range. Rule of thumb minimum if a product cost for example $1,000 In parts it is marked up 4 times that then overhead this unit maybe $5,000 The dealer gets on average 45% off of that. Commercial brand cables Such as Synergistic research for example a 8-10 times markup Way over priced With these bells and whistles like stock plug in modules for active shield, Gor $400 more that little black box makes cable dound better. Inside maybe $25 in parts stock model $10 . Totals Audiophiles need to be much More educated and research.I have found smaller companies non big name You are getting many times better parts no dealers Mark up. The consumer winds. I used to have $75k MBL electronics ,fantastic sounding yes but at a huge price . Now I look for the best product gor least amount of money spent . For example and shocking no more $1500 on interconnects . I am in the process of having custom built amp and preamp with nothing but yhe best parts quality 3x less money then the big names and much better parts quality and as good or better then CJ,AR Ayon, Rogue, you name it . For cables the WiRe absolutely does matter. I use thd best in my electronics such as Neotech Single Crystal Copper And for signal the best out there in the Silver Gold Alloy . I found a cable company Using the Neotech wire and using exceptional connectors .Zenwave Audio Cables I bought their 2nd from the top using this same Silver Gold Alloy for $550 a meter Unbleached Cotter jacket Teflon over the wires and the excellent Copper rhodium gold interconnects from Furutech. I have had many $$ from all the big names These cables beat cables 3x yhe price music just sounds like in the room Using wire with fevers few grain boundaries everything is more transparent and at ease. Say goes gor the power and Loudspeaker cables. The money goes into the product not the advertising. One closing comment these adverts out there .there is s ton oof politics in online And paper advertising the big full page ads get more favorable reviews And comments. At present my reference preamp Direct Headed Triode preamp Starting to get popular. Red wine audio, Coincidence for example. My unit is much less money and a better product yhen both. Pass labs 1st watt SE Clone amp .stuffed with nothing but the best ,companies put average quality parts in to save cost. Just keep this in mind .that is how Modwright has done well Modding - making a product much better through premium parts and higher Build engineering. Anyone looking for assistance just email me I am retired but Allways a Audiophile .with a new product and system Synergy a very important word .Spend less $$ and get more !! Enjoy your music !!
Gentlemen, let's agree to disagree and return to whatever we ought to be doing, or would prefer to be doing. The angels on the head of this pin will carry on or not without further attention.
I enjoy meaningful discussions regarding the performance of gear when input is experienced based and reasonably objective. Such discussions about price (or value) by definition have little meaning as price is entirely a relative analyses.
Certain individuals find $100,000 wires cheap, some do not; where is the profit in belittling one or the other. It all seams so trite, wreaks of jealousy, and ignorance.
Get over it, accept your lot in life and enjoy it for what it is; we only get one. You may find the whole journey a little more enjoyable.
I've used JPS cables over the years, from basic to SC3 (Aluminata top model = too expensive for me). I find there are two factors, do I like this sound profile or not, and then, how far up the chain can I afford to go. Yes, SC3 sounds better than the original SC, although both are enjoyable in my system. This whole process of cable fitting does make the system sound better, but it is no revolution. Better boxes make more difference than better cables, supports etc.
Cables do make a difference, but different cable (even from the same manufacturer) sound differently when attached to its components. I used to use Audioquest Everst/Sky which I decided sounded best with my stuff. I tried some of the Wm F Lowe Signature (top of the line Audioquest) which cost far more, but sounded awful. Also tried much less expensive ClearCables which sounded even better. Its a crap shoot, keep trying until you win.
dracule1 OP 890 posts 06-08-2016 10:13pm "$100K TV is to a videophile as $100K speaker is to an audiophile. I know of no videophile who has spent more than couple of hundred on wires. At least videophiles know wire is wire."
On the other hand how many videophiles really care about sound quality? Not to mention how good does sound quality actually have to be for explosions and digital CGI effects?
bdp24...*L* Hey, I'm just happy that someone else shares my appreciation of the BDDDB's 'musical deviance'. And just so no one gets cranky on us for going 'off topic' in this thread, well, Yes, some audiophiliacs are crazy in dimensions that don't encompass 'mere' equipment...;)
I have a love of hearing the talented types 'goofing off', 'sonic puns' if you will...the Bonzos, Zappa ("Flakes" is a favorite, having been born and raised in southern CA, I can attest to his take on some of the residents), P.D.Q. Bach, and lately Salut Salon (chamber music with a twist...check out the 'live' YouTube vid). If you can't make fun of it and have fun with it, IMHO there's something seriously wrong with you. *L*
That kinda relates to my 'take' on our 'hobby'. I thought we're supposed to be listening to the music and not focusing on How it's being reproduced. There's so many 'steps' 'twixt the performer and our ears these days that total accuracy is a chimera. If one desires perfection, go to the live performance or talk your way into the studio, And the latter will shatter any presumptions you may have held about what you've beheld in your listening environment. Studio 'enhancements' and the equipment used in recording (or for that matter, any 'live' concert) are SOP now....
Besides....I've read enough about wires. When materials experts say that 100% oxygen-free copper is just fine and everything else is basically hype and hyperbole, I don't see a rational reason to disagree. I can't hear dog whistles, but I know when I see one being blown that Something is occurring. Same with speakers...I can't hear 20Khz. If it's loud enough, I can sense it's 'there', much like 10hz in the opposite 'direction'.
IMHO, 'perfection' doesn't exist. If one wants 'perfection', give it up, and become an entity of pure energy. And I'll wager a five buck bet you'll not be happy There, either. *L* I'd be pissed, personally. Food, sex, beer, and all the other things we enjoy become impossible and pointless. ;) And the 'music of the spheres' will likely sound like static and Really Tick You Off.
For the remainder of eternity. Now, That sounds like Hell. *LOL*
But, if you've got the bucks, buy fancy cables, y'all. *shrug* To each...
$100K TV is to a videophile as $100K speaker is to an audiophile. I know of no videophile who has spent more than couple of hundred on wires. At least videophiles know wire is wire.
Jerry---Brilliant Group! I much prefer them to Zappa---both lyrically and musically---at the thing they both did. By the way, that’s The Bonzo’s playing in the subterranean bar in The Beatles Magical Mystery Tour film. Vivian Stanshall is the member singing "My Pink Half..."---he died a while back. Bonzo member Neil Innes was responsible, along with Monthy Python member Eric Idle, for The Beatles parody The Rutles. I saw them live in the 90’s at The Troubadour in L.A. Just a fantastically talented bunch of guys! I missed the show, but I know a couple guys who saw The Bonzos live at Fillmore in the early 70’s. Roger Ruskin Spear had one of his robots on stage, operating it with a remote control.
I'm happy to take advantage of the spoils of this fickle hobby. I've had some nicer, preowned gear, (nothing extravagant) and the majority has been great.
The people in these forums are generally helpful and I'm appreciative. Sometimes posters come from a place I can't understand, but there's no telling what they've been through or the life they've lived. I can't help but think this forum may be someone's lifeline, somewhere.
I guess audiophiles are still crazy, I've seen worse things...
jmcgrogan2...Yeah, it all resembles a 'bitch fest' of monumental proportions...nobody's ever happy, no resolutions, no exit strategy, no cures, whiner diners...*L* I swear, sometimes it seems Mapman and moi' seem to be the only posters that are relatively happy with our current 'state of the state'. He's apparently in possession of enough gear to require a good sized U-Haul to move, me because I ain't crazed enough to chase the receding numerals behind the decimal point to the light at the end of the tunnel which burned out last week...;)
The 'not so divine' comedy. *L* I tune in for a chuckle, and play the devil's advocate. I'd rather we'd all have a beer in some other situation and agree 'to each his own', but I suspect someone would spike mine with ground glass or something that would turn me into a wild animal that would have to be 'put down'....
We should all take up gardening, or knitting...something less intense...*L*;)
Thinking audiophiles might change the way the industry makes recordings might be taken of evidence of audiophiles being out of their minds for all practical purposes at least.
philipwu 149 posts 06-07-2016 9:23am "If i have 100k to spend on that TV or any piece of audio gear, the most common sense thing for me to do is to invest that kind of money into my favourite recording stereo firm. Get them to upgrade their hardware, or employ a better sound engineer ect.. I guess the materials that they produce would certainly become more enjoyable, wouldn't that be the best bang for the buck?"
We could all sign a petition to stop the overly aggressive dynamic range compression that's been going on for the past 20 years or so. And it's not just CDs but SACDs, vinyl and even hi res downloads. Hel-looo! It's small wonder folks can't hear the difference in high end cables or whatever.
If i have 100k to spend on that TV or any piece of audio gear, the most common sense thing for me to do is to invest that kind of money into my favourite recording stereo firm. Get them to upgrade their hardware, or employ a better sound engineer ect.. I guess the materials that they produce would certainly become more enjoyable, wouldn't that be the best bang for the buck?
I was just popping back in to respond to the 'Big Question', your #1 at the top of all this...
ABSOLUTELY STONE CRAZY. Some more that others. Personally, I just do what I want that amuses me, with a 'budget' that in relation to what I read here approaches zilch. I'm building my own speakers (not the cabinets...the drivers...) because I can't afford the alternative and would rather 'roll my own' anyway. Some guys build amps for much the same reason, so I feel in good company in that respect. The challenge, the satisfaction of doing so. If they aren't 'perfect', so f'n what. I don't force anyone to listen to them. But they do...(DIY Walsh Speakers, on YouTube) Not an 'audiophile recording', to be sure. Not a great camera...not a great 'space' to do so in...and recording an omni with a mono mic isn't going to Ever give anyone more of a clue other than 'they work'....
...but they do...and, if you were 'here', I'll bet I can make you blink and the jaw drop a tad. I'd love to have a 'serious audiophile' come by for a listen. They don't seem to exist in my local focal locus (west NC). I've been contemplating inviting anyone from Moog to come by for a beer if I could borrow their ears for an hour for some semi-serious listening....
But that's just me ranting about my 'predilection', much like most of the above previous to this...just more air, heating the room...*G*
Oh, yeah...then there's the fact that I don't listen to that of 'my age group'. No dead white Europeans on a mega-buck TT for this Medicared mortal. How about deadmau5 for a break, ya'll? Turn it up and dust off the woofs. Good for the blood flow, I've heard...;)
Asvjerry, it takes two to tango. The sucker who buys $10k+ cable thinking it's money well spent. And the cable manufacturer who thinks there's a sucker around each corner and charges $10k+. You take the sucker out, and no more ludicrously priced cables. But it's difficult to educate a sucker. I suppose we were all suckers when we started in this hobby, but some of us saw the BS in high end and stopped buying expensive wire lined with fairy dust and infused with rainbow juice.
If things are kept at a distance, as they are here, reconciliation will never occur. I’d love to see everyone in the same room and film it for reality TV. I’d make a boatload and go out and buy whatever I want. Fuses, cables, heck, even a new system or two, or three. :-)
ji35, by the same logic, if you bought a $100k ultradef 80" flat screen
TV, it would be logical to spend $10k-20k on a coaxial video cable?
Wait a cotton-picking minute here.....you mean they make a $100K TV???!!! Well THAT is just sick and twisted!!! What the hell is wrong with this world???!!!
but would properly a chosen $100k cable system not make a 7 figure system in a dedicated architecturally designed room sound better? I sure don't know...
I read long ago that Gates had a Wilson Wamm system...bet he used some pretty good cables...sure has a nice house...I was outraged the first time I compared interconnects and liked the $150 Museatex more than the $15 Signet...
Geoffkait, you’re not taking your Ritaline. Stay on track. Focus man. We’re talking cables here. You can’t compare the technology and man power that go into 5th generation stealth fighter with technology of audio cables.
Yea, it may be pocket change to them, but it's still $100k. You wonder why people like Paris Hilton get so much hate. But you do have people like Bill Gates and warren Buffet who actually haven't gone off the deep end given their immense wealth. May be I'm just old and cranky.
I have never compared cables on a $100k+ amp or $100k+ speakers...I have never heard a system that expensive...I sort of assume that for those who spend $!00k on cables, that that is relative pocket change to them...
ji35, by the same logic, if you bought a $100k ultradef 80" flat screen TV, it would be logical to spend $10k-20k on a coaxial video cable? Thank god videophiles are not suckers.
A trolling we will go, a trolling we will go, high ho the dairy oh, a trolling we will go. One might as well wonder, hmmmm, how does Mercedes justify their prices? Or how does a pro basketball or baseball player justify his price? Or how does the military justify $339M for an F-22 Raptor?
jl35, I'm repeating this for the 3rd time. I've already said $2700 was too much for speaker cables and regret the purchase. Funny thing is no audiophile ever told me that was too expensive. Sorry, I don't agree $100k cabling might be good fit for a 7 figure system, when I'm certain you can do just as well, if not better, with cabling costing a tiny fraction of that.
Just a thought. How do cable manufacturers justify the price of their megabuck cables? The material cost of nearly unobtanium radioisotope treatment of there cables? Their mega research facility cost? Labor cost? Cost of hiring a Haitian voodoo doctor? All of the above? Or just suckers who are willing to pay no matter how rediculous the price.
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