I've been in this hobby for 30 years and owned many gears throughout the years, but never that many cables. I know cables can make a difference in sound quality of your system, but never dramatic like changing speakers, amplifiers, or even more importantly room treatment. Yes, I've evaluated many vaunted cables at dealers and at home over the years, but never heard dramatic effect that I would plunk $5000 for a cable. The most I've ever spent was $2700 for pair of speaker cables, and I kinda regret it to this day. So when I see cable manufacturers charging 5 figures for their latest and "greatest" speaker cables, PC, and ICs, I have to ask myself who buys this stuff. Why would you buy a $10k+ cable, when there are so many great speakers, amplifiers, DACs for that kind of money, or room treatment that would have greater effect on your systems sound? May be I'm getting ornery with age, like the water boy says in Adam Sandler's movie.
"Ya but how about bringing up that "I know a guy" who works at NASA and he agrees with me? Now that pretty much clears up this whole topic.
Seriously though, I completely agree with your point that an "Appeal to Authority" is often a sophomoric tactic employed when the facts aren’t in support of a position; just as poorly designed experiments (DBT’s as an example) serve the same purpose.
That said, I raised my role as a materials scientist not to support a specific scientific claim (as I have made none). Rather, I did so in response to a post made by inna which indicated the OP needed a scientific background to make his claims. I pointed out my credentials to demonstrate my qualifications to engage in a discussion about science regarding the poorly contrived scientific claims of the OP. This is of course a proposition he has shown no desire to pursue for reasons I have mentioned. Namely, I don’t believe this thread is about cables."
Taking the passive aggressive approach? All this verbiage, yet you have contributed nothing except for how great an psychoanalyst engineer you are working on F16s, Mercedes, etc. If you don’t believe this thread is about cables, then why participate. Go start your own audiophile psychobabble thread and have at it. Who here wants to hear your psychobabble over and over again?
That "NASA guy" has real credentials and can be trusted because I know him. I have no idea which community or online college you sprang from.
"BTW, I use 10 gauge Furutech OCC in my walls because I like the way it looks on my oscilloscope." Hmm, next time I’ll bring my oscilloscope to my audio dealer and if I like the way a cable looks on my oscilloscope, I’ll buy it. Why even listen to it? Precious.
geoffkait3,597 posts06-18-2016 7:59amBringing up credentials, especially when they aren’t particularly relevant, such as chemistry in a physics debate or discussion, is what we refer to as Appeal to Authority, a particular form of logical fallacy. A recording engineer who might argue against cables making a difference in SQ cannot win the argument based ONLY on his credentials as a recording engineer. A chemistry major or even a EE cannot win any physics argument based on his credentials.
geoff,
Ya but how about bringing up that "I know a guy" who works at NASA and he agrees with me? Now that pretty much clears up this whole topic.
Seriously though, I completely agree with your point that an "Appeal to Authority" is often a sophomoric tactic employed when the facts aren’t in support of a position; just as poorly designed experiments (DBT’s as an example) serve the same purpose.
That said, I raised my role as a materials scientist not to support a specific scientific claim (as I have made none). Rather, I did so in response to a post made by inna which indicated the OP needed a scientific background to make his claims. I pointed out my credentials to demonstrate my qualifications to engage in a discussion about science regarding the poorly contrived scientific claims of the OP. This is of course a proposition he has shown no desire to pursue for reasons I have mentioned. Namely, I don’t believe this thread is about cables.
To point out the problems with poorly designed experiments, I gave an example above of how inferior interconnects can help with impedance matching between components; however, I can't think of a scenario where a combination of the variables you list would make well designed AC wires perform worse than romex (save for an extreme example of a reduced voltage drop leaving voltage above the component spec which, frankly, is hard for me to conceive). You always do a good job of pointing out the existence of each end of the bell curve but in this case I am not in agreement. Can you be specific with a scenario I am missing.
BTW, I use 10 gauge Furutech OCC in my walls because I like the way it looks on my oscilloscope.
My point is of course you can construct absurd cases where some generic wire might win in a shoot out with a superior wire due to some contrived assemblage of variables. But those case can be thrown out. They’re outliers. You cannot put the genie back n the bottle. Not with cables and wire, not with fuses. Simply saying we can’t easily perform an AB test doesn’t actually mean
your argument is valid. You cannot have your cake and eat it, too. One
trusts wire directionality is one of your variables.
Geoff, I wasn’t constructing any cases, absurd or otherwise. And I wasn’t addressing cables or fuses. My point in mentioning all of those variables was to convey the thought that the results provided by expensive in-wall wiring in comparison with Romex are (a)unlikely to have much if any predictability, and (b)are unlikely to have much if any consistency among different systems and installations.
almarg 6,473 posts 06-19-2016 3:39pm Geoffkait: Hey, Al, correct me if I’m wrong but the whole point of thorough and conscientious testing is to eliminate all those persnickety variables you refer to, or at least as many as you can.
to which Al replied,
"Well, of course, Geoff. Not sure what your point is, though, with respect to my comment about expensive in-wall wiring vs. Romex. Obviously not many of us are going to do A/B comparisons of those alternatives. And I see little if any reason to expect the findings of those few people who may do such comparisons to be applicable to other systems and installations, considering all of the variables I cited."
My point is of course you can construct absurd cases where some generic wire might win in a shoot out with a superior wire due to some contrived assemblage of variables. But those case can be thrown out. They’re outliers. You cannot put the genie back n the bottle. Not with cables and wire, not with fuses. Simply saying we can’t easily perform an AB test doesn’t actually mean your argument is valid. You cannot have your cake and eat it, too. One trusts wire directionality is one of your variables.
There is no use for this thread. Nobody, who considers themselves member of the scam police, will heed those who say some expensive cables are worth it. Nor will the scam police ever embrace at least some expensive cables.
I have had expensive and awful cables and inexpensive and awful cables and rejected both.
What troubles me more than any price that someone can sell something and the price for which someone is willing to pay for something, is the reality that there are two sets of rules in our current so-called, but in reality no longer, capitalist society. One set of rules is for those of us who may complain about prices from time to time, but by and large play by a set of rules that is fair. We call ’em as we see ’em and expect a fair deal and quality.
Then there’s the set of rules that I’ll bet none-to-very-few-of-us has access to. Who here can buy a credit default swap for 7 figures or higher and gain from someone else’s failure? Who here can sequester $Ms in off-shore tax-free havens? Who here is able to buy or sell equities on secondary markets with nanosecond transactions? I have to place a bid and then wait hours before it is denied or confirmed, all the while the market shifts and moves out of my purview.
Some are able to transact these things in an informed manner, or have agents who have access to such transaction capabilities, but they don’t care about the price of an audio cable or component and whether it is priced too high. And by the way I was raised, such second sets of rules accessible by some and not all is NOT free market capitalism and never will be.
So I don’t complain about the prices of audio gear; there are far more important fish to fry.
Hey, Al, correct me if I’m wrong but the whole point of thorough and conscientious testing is to eliminate all those persnickety variables you refer to, or at least as many as you can.
Well, of course, Geoff. Not sure what your point is, though, with respect to my comment about expensive in-wall wiring vs. Romex. Obviously not many of us are going to do A/B comparisons of those alternatives. And I see little if any reason to expect the findings of those few people who may do such comparisons to be applicable to other systems and installations, considering all of the variables I cited.
"However I also see no reason to rule out the possibility that depending on all of those variables the results that would be provided in many cases by the $24/foot wiring might be worse than ordinary Romex would provide, rather than better. Certainly from a subjective standpoint, at least."
Hey, Al, correct me if I’m wrong but the whole point of thorough and conscientious testing is to eliminate all those persnickety variables you refer to, or at least as many as you can. Not all of the variables will be known, if that’s what you mean I agree! Hey, that would make an excellent topic, how many variables are there? The same way you would for tests of any cables, fuses, or any product.
The easiest (only) way to solve three simultaneous equations in four unknowns is get rid of one of the unknowns. - old audiophile expression
Lest I compound the impression of being rich as Croesus 💰💰💰💰 I should not that for my most recent build out I did not use the JPS again but instead opted for the Synergistic Research cryo treated Romex at <$10/foot (I forget the actual price)
Do I think the JPS sounded better than the SR? No idea -- but the JPS was a bear to work with and given my use of other SR products I opted for the cheaper and lighter cable
One consideration on in-wall is that it has zero resale value ... unless you can demolish your construction, so cost of ownership is that much higher
Regarding the $24/foot in-wall power cabling, I would certainly envision that it might make a difference in many applications, to a greater or lesser degree depending on many variables. Including the length that is required; whether the incoming AC voltage at the particular location happens to be greater than or less than the voltage the particular components were designed to sound best at; the magnitude and spectral characteristics of whatever noise may be riding on that AC; whether the power amp is biased in class A or AB or D (which affects the extent to which the current it draws fluctuates with the dynamics of the music); the susceptibility of the components in the system to ground loop issues, which can also be dependent on how they are interconnected; and countless other variables involving the design of the particular components in the system.
However I also see no reason to rule out the possibility that depending on all of those variables the results that would be provided in many cases by the $24/foot wiring might be worse than ordinary Romex would provide, rather than better. Certainly from a subjective standpoint, at least.
It's not nearly as bad as alcohol or many other legal, more socially accepted things. I actually don't endulge but as with cables, there is a ton of misinformation out there. 😳
I would tell him to give me some of what he has been smoking.
Yeah, that approach was a lot more fun before they figured out how bad it is for our health. Made our inexpensive systems sound awesome. Here's to simpler times...
If you built an addition on to your house and the electrician told you that he could install electrical wire that would dramatically improve the performance of anything plugged into it but it would cost you a $100.00 a foot would you go for it?
JPS Labs in-wall power cable, only $24/foot I'm afraid but the answer is yes. And btw the electrician in question (now retired) worked on most of the studios in LA
ps head-head A/B auditioning of in-wall power cable is beyond even me 😀
It's not hard to get caught up in the hype especially when you are trying to get the most out of your system and want to fine tune it but I'm convinced that we want to believe that a ten thousand dollar cable should and will make a huge difference in spite of the fact that all logic says other wise (diminishing returns). Any audiophile with experience knows that cabling is system dependent regardless of it's cost.
If you built an addition on to your house and the electrician told you that he could install electrical wire that would dramatically improve the performance of anything plugged into it but it would cost you a $100.00 a foot would you go for it?
"vs someone who buys $10k speakers and slaps on cheap cables without auditioning, simply assuming cables don't matter..." If you mean lamp cords or rolls of Monster Cable at Best Buy, I agree.
Repeat after me, "It’s only a hobby. It’s only a hobby." In terms of price spread high end audio is not really a whole lot different from say model railroading, mountain climbing or stamp collecting or even baseball card collecting. There will always be ridiculously high priced products in any hobby. Not every mountain climber can afford to climb Everest and of those that can most undoubtedly don’t want to. The Mickey Mantle baseball card from his rookie year is how much?! I suspect the the whole answer to the high priced audiophile cable debate is whether the SQ of very expensive cables is superior to inexpensive cables, generally speaking. I far don’t see any real evidence to the contrary, only a lot of who shot John. I can't help pointing out that inexpensive cables, say Radio Shack, might actually sound better than much more expensive cables if they're broken in and the expensive ones aren't, they're cryo'd and the expensive ones aren't and/or they're inserted with the correct directionality in mind while the expensive ones aren't.
Hmm..Jmc, seems like you’re the one who can’t except the way some people are. RELAX man. Poor you, vying for my attention with all your posts. You want my attention. I’m giving you some. Happy?
Drac, if you love dogs, here this will get you riled up. It makes $100K cables look pedestrian!
Who loves their dogs??!! You don’t really love them unless the have a exquisite dog collars from “I Love Dogs Diamonds” . 3 models to choose from starting at $498,000 and going up to $3,200,000....for a dog collar.
What’s that? Can’t hear you Drac. Hahahahahahahahahaha.
I enjoy how you qualify *rational* people. They are simply those people that agree with your way of thinking.
In my mind, *rational* people are those that understand that there are differences between people, and accept that others choices should be left up to them. *Irrational* people, are people like you Drac, that get frustrated when you find people that do not agree with everything that you feel to be *right*, and have a burning desire to try to make everything *right* in the world by trying to change those people.
Expand you mind, expand your horizons, expand your world. Accept others for what they are, and enjoy your life. Stop trying to change others to fit your mold of what should be. As Frankie Goes To Hollywood would say: R-E-L-A-X.
"To your question, What is your reasoning behind justifying the cost of $10k ICs and $50k speaker cables? I would say, why do they have to be justified? While I am happy with my WE wire from ebay, I have no problem with others who believe a $10K pair of interconnects, or a dozen $150 fuses, are necessary for their audio enjoyment." Well, my question was directed to asp307, but I’m glad you joined our discussion. The reason why I posed the above question is because some have attacked me for suggesting some high end cables have become so absurdly expensive for no good reason. And there are people willing to buy these cables without really even thinking about what goes into making them. And the reasons they give for buying these cables is well...how should I put it...they already drank the kool-aid. I was hoping for more rational reason other than the subjective "it sounds good to me". A hamburger with grilled onions and cheddar cheese sounds good to me, but I’m not going to pay $200 for it no matter how good it is. I guess I have a disdain for getting ripped off.
"It would be interesting if the folks who complain about high-priced cables actually took a close look at what the government does with the money we pay them.....talk about waste and lack of value." You don't think people are aware of this? I work at an institution that is supported in part by the government and see the waste first hand, besides all the government waste reported in the media. But this is entirely a different matter that doesn’t belong on Audiogon.
"Sure, some inherit their wealth but many others are some of the hardest working people I know and many started with nothing more than an idea, fearlessness and perseverance." I agree. My criticism was never about these people. My original post had to do with unjustifiably expensive cables and the people who buy them.
"drac, your post below is one of your most thoughtful in this thread." Well thanks. I’m not exactly sure which exact post you’re referring to because most of my posts are thoughtful when I’m responding to rational people. ;-)
The social and psychological content of this and several other threads going on now are fascinating. drac, your post below is one of your most thoughtful in this thread. The recent cultural disdain for folks who have accumulated wealth seems to have replaced what was once respect, then envy. Sure, some inherit their wealth but many others are some of the hardest working people I know and many started with nothing more than an idea, fearlessness and perseverance. Without the wealthy to drive our economy, who is going to provide jobs? The government certainly cannot do it all since they are funded by all of us. It would be interesting if the folks who complain about high-priced cables actually took a close look at what the government does with the money we pay them.....talk about waste and lack of value. To your question,
What is your reasoning behind justifying the cost of $10k ICs and $50k speaker cables?
I would say, why do they have to be justified? While I am happy with my WE wire from ebay, I have no problem with others who believe a $10K pair of interconnects, or a dozen $150 fuses, are necessary for their audio enjoyment. I agree with jl35,
if someone wants to build them and someone wants to buy them, so be it...
I too have trouble understanding how a power cord can have the same list price as a Honda Civic. On the other hand, if someone wants to build them and someone wants to buy them, so be it...
Asp307, why are you so hurt over the term filthy rich? It doesn’t carry the negative connotation to me as it does to you. It seems only some of those who have more money than what they know what to do with get offended. I would love to be filthy rich and wouldn’t care if someone used that descriptor.
I have described in detail why I don’t think expensive cables are not worth their price. Perhaps you should read my comments again. But I will list them again.
First, the raw materials needed for expensive cables are easily obtained, are cheap in the quantities needed, and are few, namely metal wire, connector, and dielectric. How expensive is copper or even silver wire that goes into an expensive 1 meter of IC or 8’ feet of speaker cable? I hope you don’t start getting into monocrystal wire debate. Cost of most dielectric is almost nothing.
Second, the engineering of expensive audio cables is not sophisticated compared to amplifiers, DACs, speakers, although cable manufacturers will claim a lot of unproven BS. In contrast for example, there are cables used in some components of high energy physics particle colliders (eg, CERN) that do require sophisticated engineering and manufacturing and are probably expensive for a reason.
Third, markup of expensive audio cable is probably the highest in the industry for no good reason. If you can provide a good reason, please let us know.
Fourth, there is no consistent evidence published or otherwise that expensive cables sound better than inexpensive ones, coat hangers excluded (Watts you’re precious.). I with other audiophiles have conducted blinded AB testing, and there has never been consistent preference for expensive cables ($5k+ speaker cables and ICs) over relatively inexpensive ones ($300-$2k). I do find differences in sound among cables, but price has never been the consistent factor.
Fifth, manufacturing of these expensive, highly marketed audio cables is cheap compared to most high end gear. They can be made in miles of quantity by machines. Actually, I think some of the more boutique, one man operations spend more time hand making his wire (hand polishing the wire, making and applying the dielectric by hand, etc).
If you are to claim value is in the eye of the beholder, then I got a $10,000 umbrella stand I can sell you.
So now my turn. What is your reasoning behind justifying the cost of $10k ICs and $50k speaker cables? Have you done blinded AB testing and found consistent evidence that expensive cables sound better than inexpensive cables? I would love to hear your response.
Bringing up credentials, especially when they aren’t particularly relevant, such as chemistry in a physics debate or discussion, is what we refer to as Appeal to Authority, a particular form of logical fallacy. A recording engineer who might argue against cables making a difference in SQ cannot win the argument based ONLY on his credentials as a recording engineer. A chemistry major or even a EE cannot win any physics argument based on his credentials.
"And please...let’s not start talking about what classes we took in high school as a means to somehow qualify our chops..." Who ever talked about high school classes? From what I can tell, most people have college and post graduate degrees here. Are you saying these science and engineering degrees have absolutely no bearing on what qualifies someone to give there opinions?
Not sure if you actually use your chemistry degree for your livelihood or if you are too busy channeling your inner Llobet but I haven't seen much detailed feedback from you on why these cables aren't worth their price. Have you A/B tested a wide range of cables in various set-ups? What steps have you taken to deduce a cable isn't worth 'X' amount? Or is your opinion formed on your own set of circumstances and what you find to be unacceptable because of the price tag it wields? We agree that we both feel that prices are substantial and over the top so it's not all disagreement. But what I find over the top is acceptable to someone else.
"I’m with@wattsperchannelon this...@dracule1 comes off as whiny." And you’re not? Get real.
We disagree here. I am genuinely happy for people and their success by however they measure it (healthy kids, meaningful job, financial freedom, totally awesome hi-fi..ahah.. etc.) I guess I'm just not sure why you speak down to the "filthy rich" the way you are as if it's a negative to be financially successful...what purpose does that serve? Hence, it sounds whiny...
This has turned into one hell of a pissing contest. Several times the streams have crossed in general agreement (not necessarily on things audio) but the animosity that has built up and the innate hubris seems to have blinded the participants to this. Keep it up and there'll be no dessert. :-)
"
To me, the real answer to all of this is to do your own evaluations, find the bargains or overlooked pieces of gear on the used market and make your own decisions on what sounds "right" without following the herd. The DIY camp--which I really am not adept at because I lack vital skills--is where a lot of the action is. "
You got that right. Look for overlooked pieces of gear, like vintage SS Japanese gear from the 80's and 70's. Very affordable and sounds better than some of the most highly touted gear today. Don't follow the herd and buy the most advertised gear, which is usually the most expensive. And DIY is probably the best thing an audiophile can do for himself to get some of the best sound with the lowest cost, provided he has the time to learn. DIY cable is the easiest thing to make and just as good or better than half of the cables costing thousands of dollars.
"An ordinary man has no means of deliverance." Au contraire, mon frère. You already mentioned the "used" route. Remember when "upgrade" didn't mean "flavor of the month" but the gradual building of a system over time? For some of us of an age, I started in high school, and built my system further while in college. I didn't really have much money to spend on gear, but it took priority over other things someone else might spend their disposable income on. When the SP-11 preamp came out in in the late '80s, I bought an SP-10 mk ii, which wasn't cheap, but to me, worth every dollar. By then, I had a decent job, but it was still real money to me. Some folks I know who have true wealth wouldn't spend a fraction of this on audio gear (maybe that's why they are wealthy, but they have different priorities). Others- some poor as church mice-- have killer systems, built over the years. (Yes, they had inside prices working in the industry, or spent judiciously, but were hardly "rich."). To me, the real answer to all of this is to do your own evaluations, find the bargains or overlooked pieces of gear on the used market and make your own decisions on what sounds "right" without following the herd. The DIY camp--which I really am not adept at because I lack vital skills--is where a lot of the action is.
"Currently there’s a pair of Nordost Valhalla 2’s for sale here asking $14,340 ($35,850 original price.) " To which dracule1 replied,
"Guess what...if this person is one of those special Nordost dealers and selling it for $14,340, he is still making a healthy profit. If this person bought it for the original list price, you know my opinion on that."
"If" is the operative word here. Nobody pays retail. Hel-loo! And why the USED audiophile market is SO strong, particularly since the Big Short selling scandal. Geez, high end audiophile cables are probably the most recession proof audio product in the world. Much better than real estate or the stock? A clever fellow can actually make money buying and selling cables. Over here we can just borrow really expensive high end cables from the Cable Company at no charge. Kind of a no brainer, eh?
"Currently there’s a pair of Nordost Valhalla 2’s for sale here asking $14,340 ($35,850 original price.) " Guess what...if this person is one of those special Nordost dealers and selling it for $14,340, he is still making a healthy profit. If this person bought it for the original list price, you know my opinion on that.
"As much as I’m turned off by people that constantly brag about what they have which to me is a very ’new money’ thing to do, I am equally or possibly even more so turned off by people that state "I don’t have that type of money" or "I can’t afford that." I find it off putting and a bad look." Ok. Whatever blows your hair back.
"And please...let’s not start talking about what classes we took in high school as a means to somehow qualify our chops..." Who ever talked about high school classes? From what I can tell, most people have college and post graduate degrees here. Are you saying these science and engineering degrees have absolutely no bearing on what qualifies someone to give there opinions?
"I’m with @wattsperchannel on this...@dracule1 comes off as whiny." And you’re not? Get real.
I'm with @wattsperchannel on this...@dracule1 comes off as whiny.
I have no qualms if you want to put $70K in your retirement plan. I also don't mind if you want to spend $70K on cables; whatever blows your hair back..
To me, there is a clear difference here and this is not the same type of spend. One is an investment and the other is discretionary spend. Currently there's a pair of Nordost Valhalla 2's for sale here asking $14,340 ($35,850 original price.) I highly doubt audiophiles are in it for the investment...
Furthermore, who care about what people make on this thread. Be happy for those that have financial freedom as well as those working toward it. As much as I'm turned off by people that constantly brag about what they have which to me is a very 'new money' thing to do, I am equally or possibly even more so turned off by people that state "I don't have that type of money" or "I can't afford that." I find it off putting and a bad look.
And please...let's not start talking about what classes we took in high school as a means to somehow qualify our chops...
geoffkait3,589 posts06-15-2016 5:26pmAct-too-ally both 5 and 3 are real numbers in Czarivey’s example. The expression 3i is, however, an imaginary number. Thus the square of the imaginary number 3i is -9.
As Al I totally agree! Please be also noted that MAGNITUDE of complex number that only has imaginary part IS totally NEGATIVE! ISN’T THAT SUPER DARN COOL?
Watts, you're the self proclaimed master engineer, but all you do is throw around "decision matrix" and "permutations" to make yourself sound intelligent. But we all know you have real insecurity issues to deal with. You gotta stop bringing up your childhood, economic status, and your "awesome" job with Mercedes, BMW, and US military. No one here has posted so much about how great they are. Love the way you look down upon me and attack me, while proclaiming yourself as humble fair minded individual and the all knowing psychoanalyst. "Hell has no fury over a woman scorned" aptly describes you. How's that for hilarious?
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