Perhaps equipment manufacturers don't make suggestions because there is no difference ! If one uses a healthy gauge size, proper connections, high strand, pure copper cable, end of story. If they supply workable just good enough, they've shaved a few extra $'s. You think ??
An electrical engineer on how power cables can impact sound quality
Sharing an fascinating discussion of how the design of power cables can impact sound quality of an audio system from an electrical engineer that does analog design for audio equipment.
The HiFi Podcast with Darren and Duncan / Radio Frequency: The 800MHz Gorilla
The discussion of how power cables can impact sound quality starts at 80 minutes into the podcast
From the Podcast:
"If you have an engineering degree and you’re hearing this and you’re shaking your head and you’re saying this is nonsense, my response to you is that you’re logical. Based on what you have learned, I completely understand your response, but unfortunately, the way that power cables operate is not the way that we were taught in electrical engineering necessarily."
"Power cables were always thought of as series devices. If we add this 2 meter power cable to 2 miles of powerline, why does this 2 meter power cable make a difference?"
An intro into the theory behind why power cables work from the podcast:
"The power cable is not necessarily a series element of a system. The parallel elements [of a power cable] and way they interact with RF in the room in a common mode sense to ground is incredibly important." [Meaning in parallel to ground]
My paraphrase of the rest of the discussion. They get into far more detail: The configuration and materials used in a power cable matter because they affect a cable’s capacitance which in turn changes the cable’s impedance. Most importantly, the change in impedance impacts electrical signal differently across the frequency spectrum.
Two ways to get more details on this:
- Listen to the podcast starting at 80 minutes into the podcast. The discussion of how a cable's design impacts its ability to shunt RF to ground starts right there.
- Send a question to the hosts of The Hi Fi Podcast. You can find their email on their website.
Credentials of the creators of The Hi Fi Podcast:
Darren:
Darren is the designer of many products for Boulder’s PS Audio brand, most recently known for Stereophile’s choice as the 2020 “Analog Component of the Year,” the PS Audio Stellar Phono preamplifier, and the incredibly well-reviewed new Stellar M1200 tube hybrid mono amplifiers.
With a career as an analog and digital circuit designer spanning two countries and several of the most well-known brands, Darren brings much experience to the table. He earned his EE and worked for both Bowers & Wilkins and Classe Audio before coming to Colorado, and also, before turning 30.
He is the designer of the PS Audio Stellar Phono phono preamp
Duncan:
Duncan has recorded 150+ bands, has published 450+ articles, columns and blogs and is an experienced DIYer when it comes to audio equipment and speakers. He met Darren when working as the Retail Sales Manager of Boulder’s PS Audio, and the two collaborated on an audiophile recording and concert series called “Invisible Audience,” not to mention the weekly hikes in the mountains. He is a mastering engineer, cable designer and musician, avid fly fisherman, bike polo enthusiast, husband and dad in his “free time.”
But what truly gives him a useful perspective for the podcast is his day job as a testing technician for the world’s largest online re-seller of high end audio, The Music Room. Over years in this role, he has listened to and evaluated thousands of the finest products from all over the industry and throughout high end audio’s extensive history.
128 responses Add your response
Audio engineering and electronic engineering is mature for many decades now, nothing in audio depend ONLY and MAINLY on price tag... Anybody can pick very basic good components at relatively low price.... Audio S.Q. depend more on acoustic then than on anything else... This is only an expression about a science fact in psycho-acoustic, and anyway my own experience after listenings experiments in acoustic... Then arguing about cables differences is pathetic sometimes, not because they dont make a difference, they did, but it is a minute difference compared to acoustic huge impact...Then there exist priority decisions in audio matter...Cables are last not first... I am deaf, ignorant, or nut, or i am right ?..... 😁😊 I will understand if you think that i am nut, deaf, or ignorant or even obsessed, because it seems almost no one is so categorical about this HUGE impact of acoustic compared to any upgrade save me... If i am right you can measure now the level of conditioning and consumerism programmed ignorance in all audio threads... People want to sell and buy, not to think and experiment....They spoke about their "taste" in gear not about timbre perception in a room ... They think that a better turntable or a better dac will give to them the BEST audio experience, it is not false, it is worst than that, it is not even wrong it is an half truth then worst than a flat lie....Same is true for a cable upgrade... And these videos may be interesting but the content discussion exceed most people kowledge here and anyway matter less than acoustic science for audio matter... Then instead of physics to improve your system read about psych0-acoustic...Not about electrons and fields... 😁😊
|
That burden of proof is upon the manufacturer of the power cord if they try to get us to buy it. And if they had proof, I do not see why they would not be shouting it from the roof tops. |
You distorted my recommendation here... All of what i said, suppose that we must CHOOSE some gear first , gear we will not probably need to upgrade because basically good and well chosen to begin with... Electronical engineering is mature business anybody can buy relatively good gear ....Acoustic suppose to be related to a CHOSEN piece of gear first... And acoustically after tuning the room for this gear CHOSEN system, MY BET and experience is that in most case you will not and you will not need to upgrade...Because the results will be ASTOUNDING... WHY ? because my gear is only that: relatively basic good gear only and my end results after embeddings controls especially acoustic is astounding...And dont caricature me saying that i claim that my 500 bucks gear is better than costlier one: it is not true and not what i claimed... If your goal is listening music with the best possible S.Q. for the price you can pay...My advice is meaningful... If you goal and hobby is buying and plugging without end new gear forget my advice.. My advice is meaningless... Then the vicious circle you associated to my advice is a vicious circle in your head not in my acoustical advice...
|
Then you are lucky because most people cannot do that for sure...I respect your desire too.... Anyway even with the money i will stop somewhere and i even know where... 😁😊 I wish you the best ....
|
@larsman Makes sense. I imagine customers (especially audio equipment customers) complain about all sorts of things. |
Indeed, the age old problem of who to believe: 1., Those who have vested interest must by definition be spreading distorted information so we buy their products. 2., Those who have no vested interest are amateurs so they have no idea what they are talking about. C'est la vie... The issue is not with the presenter. The issue is with the user who wants to be pampered, and is too lazy to test out what he hears. Anything you hear means squat unless you try it out. |
It's not the cable its the connector's aftermarket power cords mostly have better plug ends. And I have never read or watched any cable reviews or tests where the tester cleaned the contacts when comparing cables the sound change could result from just putting a new clean contact cable over older oxidized or just by clean connections from installing new cables. |
So the often maligned audioquest DBS system may not be bunk after all? I like what my audioquest Thunder power cable does. It seems to increase (slightly) the dynamics of my system. It also seems more quiet. I use it in combination with other audioquest power devices, which include the Niagara 1200 and the Edison receptacle. So, maybe the cable is doing nothing, or in combination with the other stuff it is....I don’t have enough time to determine. I’ll just say I’m not too worried about my power now, so maybe all I really have is placebo effect and some protection from surges and a bit cleaner power, who knows. Crazy to think that the money spent on just the cables and the power conditioner etc...are enough to put together a nice budget system that most sane people would live happily ever after with.....🙄 |
@audioguy85 Vandersteen power amps have 128 volt DBS for good reason :-) Enjoy your great cables ! Jim |
|
I personally feel like the uber-expensive cables are pretty foolish and exist only for those with more money than sense, but if you like 'em and can afford 'em, knock yourself out. BUT, I do like to buy reasonably priced quality cables. Power and speaker cables are so easy to make, and it's a fun project. I buy in bulk the two top offerings of power cables from DH Labs, depending on the current demands of the component, along with Wattgate terminations. They look and sound great and I'm thoroughly satisfied. Plenty of other things to worry about. |
I do not think that they are running that 128 or 72V on the power cable side though. |
You raised an interesting point. For many looks are crucial. The system needs to look as good as it sounds.
|
Makes you wonder how the designers, engineers and builders of the (some very expensive) audio equipment we've had over the past 50 or 60 years, were able to develop a single thing without the use of a special high dollar magic cable to let them know how it would sound. If they would have only known the assets of a great power cable think of the time and money they could have saved by not having to design and build good power supplies..........Jim |
Folks, merely twisting wires won't necessarily do it any more than laying out a conductor, a dialectic, and a conductor makes a 20uf capacitor. A power cable is a capacitive, inductive device, and it can filter some frequencies, but not necessarily the ones you are having issues with. I have been in this hobby for over 40 years now. I never bought into the power being a problem until it was for me. I bought a Yggdrasil DAC, and the highs were killing me. People recommended power conditioning devices, but I blew it off until I had exhausted all other remedies. I finally broke down and bought an isolation transformer, problem solved. Likely the right power cable would also have fixed the problem, but the used isolation transformer was about $100, and power cables are all over the map, and who knows how many I'd have had to go through in order to get lucky? So, when someone says that power cables matter, I figure that they got lucky. |
@shooter41 I could not agree more and yes I have purchased some of those mega buck power cords from companies with 60 day return privileges and returned them all. They made little or no difference from the $300 to $600 cables I have purchased. Now those $600.00 cables did make a difference over stock and yeas my listening room is treated for acoustics. I believe in tweaks and I have done some that work and others that are pure poppycock and have been sent back.
|
From an electrical engineer, not an electrician, I can find a technical path on why it is true that power cables make a difference. We as EEs need to comprehend the reactance of the cable - which is really a passive circuit. There is reactance to ground, between the neutral and hot, . . . and to the outside world. Need to model the inductance and capacitances to all adjacent paths; this is a spice model that can be analyzed. That mathematical model must include frequency domains that are beyond 60 Hz, and transient currents. While I will never take the time to build that model and measure it, I do believe its a fact. We must get beyond the adultescent thinking that power cables only carry power. In the real world of audio, they are a component that do contribute to the end result. |
As someone that has a graduate degree in Electrical Engineering, there is no doubt cables can make a difference.. But for me it is always a price vs performance issue. If you have the means, then go for them $10K power cables / power regenerators. It will improve your sound quality. But I would rather have $9,950 in the bank and spend $50 max for power cables. |
Just a thought… It’s not about the size of the cables. That’s the easy part. It’s about how closely the juice can meet the demand made by the dynamics of the music. Any deviation from the shapes and sizes of the music shows up in the sound we hear. A better cable will allow the juice to mimic the music better so they sounded better. |
High end power cables are cool things that appeal to the audio nut. If you like them buy them. I strongly doubt they make any difference in sound; the nuance here is to avoid the really cheap stock ones. Audio Science Review is the most clearheaded opinion on things like this. The fact that many of the people who like fancy cables are tube enthusiasts says it all. |
I’m surprised there’s not a lot of experimenting with changing the amplifier’s housing. I used to run a pair of cheap JVC amps with their case tops removed so they would cool better and I could unplug the fans. That made a definite audible improvement because I couldn’t hear the fans anymore. This brings me to the idea of ultra highly modular amplifiers where more parts than just the power cord can be easily swapped. With tube amps you can roll tubes. I hear about people rolling op amps in some equipment. Quick change cases or covers with various material options and internal wiring harness options and whatever other options one might imagine could open a Pandora’s box of delicious decisions. It seems more likely to me that a permanently attached power cord that is soldered directly on to the power supply would eliminate potential issues from adding another plug. Might as wall solder right in to the wall too to get rid of that plug’s potential issues. |
| Post removed |
I don’t fully agree. The preference of tube amp harmonics is not really something that would preclude ASR membership. If one can show that SS harmonics are creating “off putting” sounds, then if those metrics show that tubes do not have those harmonics… then that it is also providing a science based reason why tubes might be preferred. So let’s not convolve tubes with power cords, and lets not devalue objective measurements to be something that cannot be used to describe the sound of an amplifier in a system. Lastly there are almost no measurements that show that an amplifier works better with such-n-such brand of a power cord. If the power cord makers showed a lower noise spectrum at the end of the cord, or that the amplifier had a more stable DC rail voltage, then it would be an easy way to claim that a difference exists and that there is a rational reason to consider their purchase… I think that the power cords look cool, and have cool names, but I doubt they do much. And I await being convinced by something more than personal testimony and story-time lore. |
For folks that believe in only considering measurements without listening, this is what an electrical engineer who works for Audio Precision (a manufacturer of audio measuring equipment)and a former governor of the Audio Engineering Society (AES) has to say about "What The Specs Don’t Tell You… And Why" |
How come no one talks about results from an emi measuring device. I have one and it's remarkable how much noise is created when various electrical components are being used in the house. A refrigerator compressor adds alotta noise throughout the house. Has anyone else used an emi measuring device and found it helpful to assess their internal situation? |
It depends on the speaker impedance curve. The current flowing through the PC is not steady. Current is inversely proportional to impedance. The speaker impedances are dependent on frequencies. So the current will pulse according to the music. How quickly the PC can allow the current to pass through to keep up with the demand by the speakers determines the sound we hear. Say, if at that instant, the speakers are asking for 10A, but only 9.8A is reaching the speakers, then 9.8A is not going to push the speakers to produce the desired sound. Make sense? |
@Creutzfeldt-Jakob
Why don’t we have a problem 60 to 120 times a second when the power company switches from sending voltage to retracting the voltage? |
Brother, I seriously think you need an O-scope. The incoming power voltage does a sine wave at 60 Hz (or 50 Hz)… it is not a constant 120V, it is an AC 120v. The current is created as a consequence of voltage and the impedance of what it is “driving”. Even if the impedance is zero, the current at 0v is also zero. What is happening with the music playing, and its effect upon the power reserve (capacitors), could also be viewed on an O-Scope.
|
So the power cable matters, I have no doubts, but if your case is they matter and engineering audio gear with power cords, are not the stock power cords designed with their effect on sound quality, if they are not, then why don’t they provide a cord that is going to equal any aftermarket power cords? |
^That^ is all true. The question is whether the incoming power, to refill the power supply capacitors, makes any difference on what is happening on the outgoing power to the speakers. And if so, can it be shown objectively/quantitatively? |