That’s awesome.. Hard to describe the silver sound other than HiFi in every true sense of the term.
Amp Internal Wire
Hi Gents, has anyone have any experience with upgrading amp or preamp internal signal wire? Most older equipment seems to have thin maybe sometimes poor internal wiring. In the world of OFC/OCC/Sterling and even more exotic wire available these days, any experiments done using this internally on components swapping out the cheap?
Lots of discussion about doing this with speakers, but never with components I've seen. For instance, I am thinking about replacing copper 'appliance' wire in an old Bryston with 14awg sterling from the board to the speaker binding post board.
Any thoughts?
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+1 @rickysnit |
Man, I couldn’t believe my eyes when I saw it. Like double take, think, look again, then realize. It had to have been making contact, the leg was tightly up against the through hole/pad - but wow. I took a photo of that too, I should have posted. If I remember correctly, since I was mainly looking at the underside of the board, it was a negative lead - the positive was soldered properly. |
@rickysnit Oops! Something like that may well have blown your comments out of the water! Power supply bypass (filter capacitors) are far more important than internal wire; if one was not hooked up right there is no way the amp was sounding right. To test this the cap would have to be disconnected and the amp played again... |
I’ve had a few hours with it - occasionally I get a jazz track - what I listen to mostly - come on, and I experience an elevated level of clarity, bass and stage depth. And for those who experiment with cables might know what I am referring to by that 10-15% bump in improvement, I think that’s what I achieved here.. The old wires, I should have posted a picture of the conductor, I’ve ripped the same cable out of old kenwoods, it’s a stranded twisted and tinned conductor with a nerve core in the center - I know this wire, I’ve replaced it elsewhere too, only with OCC to get a similar improvement. Interesting side part of the story, I noticed a main filter cap leg not soldered on the main board - totally missed by the assembly! I’ve seen a lot, that was a first for me. The leg was snipped, but no solder. The furutech connectors worked out, but if you see from my pics, it was tight. I also realized that if I continue to do this kind of thing, getting a quality desoldering solution would be so very helpful, pumps just lack. I also wouldn’t have minded some of that deoxit gold brush on stuff for the modules - both gold plated fingers, and board pads - maybe even the faston tabs too on the binding posts. We were kidding speaking about coat hangers, funny enough the feel of the Mundorf wire was like a silver PTFE coated coat hanger, it was easy and nice to bend into shape, the 15.5AWG/1.5mm fit perfectly into the eyelets, and finished with Mundorf Supreme solder. A part of me wanted to do the caps too, but I’m sure they have a few more years on them.. |
Well gentlemen, job complete. What can I say, but wow. It sounds beautiful, it sounds like silver - and a good implementation of silver - crisp airy highs, spatial, separation, and a thick low frequency bass - just exactly the kind of accurate sound I was looking for. I would absolutely recommend the overpriced Mundorf SilverGold wire.. Some photos of the job: The 4B-ST has some quirks, but generally easy to work on, I'm listening while typing, just finished screwing down the top. To those who say cable doesn't have an impact, it is just incorrect - plain and simple, this job/mod/upgrade was a NET WIN!
Thumbs up, I've really appreciated everyone's great inputs to my thread and my project! It was a WIN. |
I spoke to Richard Vandersteen about this .....he says he uses wires, binding posts, et al after evaluating its performance at its place in the component. He doesn't care about thick or thin cable, etc. Look at the Vandersteen binding post...its much smaller, using small spades than any speaker I know of because of the sound. |
Theories are nice.....but the only way to know what something does audibly....is to listen. All wires sound different.....all strandings sound different, all insulation sounds different, all wires (single strand or multistarnd) are directional (will sound different each way used). The vibrations in wires seriously effect sound. Getting wires off the floor or away from most things opens up the sound. If you cryo a wire it will sound different. YOU HAVE TO LISTEN. I have been listening to wires since the 70s......There is still no "perfect" wire......pretty darn good these days tho.....several of the suggested above are very, very good. |
Not vibration- dielectric constant, which affects the quality of the capacitor that is formed between the wire and anything else its around (stray capacitance).
Teflon does not seal the wire. So you can expect copper in Teflon to be corroded. Add a bit of heat to the mix and the corrosion happens faster. So if using uninsulated copper, Teflon should be avoided. |
In the case of tube circuits a centimeter or two of wire is in series with the conductors in the tube sockets and the pins up through their connections to the internal tube parts such as the plate not made of silver, the grid wires, and the cathode. These less than exotic signal paths are not considered an issue and they do little harm to the sound. The difference between more exotic less disruptive wires between tube socket terminals and other circuit elements makes the value of exotic wiring insignificant. In the case of resistors or capacitors or transformers which have their own wires connected to tube socket terminals you can't unroll a capacitor and replace the wires and re-roll the capacitor. You have to trust the capacitor manufacturer to choose the best wire. I think Mundorf can be trusted to use the best wire in their capacitors. For transistors you have wires of the transistors you can connect directly to adjacent components. Otherwise, where you can replace wires, there might be no noticeable difference but for a foot of pure silver wire without insulation and ease of soldering is affordable and will not do any harm. |
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You know that the path on circuit board are copper not silver and performance does not suffer. Special case is to make board it self of Teflon but that really because temperature. So wiring everything with silver is not necessarily but Teflon insulator over copper is ok. Hell we use this type of wire since the 1970s, it’s not new thing. |
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I have heard VH Audio’s UniCrystal OCC single solid core copper and their silver wire with purity of 5n (99.999%) is very good.VH Audio uses a foamed fluoropolymer insulation and not a solid fluoropolymer or teflon. It has been proven to keep the voltage more stable, reducing energy breakdown point to point by 30% over teflon. Xlnt for amps, interconnects and crossovers. Hope this helps some of you in your quest. |
Teflon is usually reserved for silver or silver plated wire. The reason is the extrusion temperature is too high for copper- if it was OFC before, it won’t be after. If you are using copper wire, you are better off with a polyethylene insulation. The reason is it will melt and seal the wire, thus preventing oxidation. FWIW, Teflon typically does not seal the wire, so the wire beneath can be considered oxidized. Fun fact: polyethylene easily rivals or surpasses Teflon at certain frequencies. Here’s another interesting tidbit: OFC was originally created for things like generators, where the wire had to survive vibration without failure. Its about 99.99% pure; there is no such thing (except in marketing) as ’6 nines’ copper due to oxidation issues.
Apparently they have not caused their hand to move to make the measurements if what you say here is true. To make the measurements simply run the amp to full power and measure the voltage drop across the power cord. Then adjust the AC line voltage (you do have a variac, right?) to compensate and measure full power again. For fun you can also measure distortion and output impedance... In tube power amplifiers in particular, because of their filament circuits being unregulated, the seemingly small voltage drops you see on power cords can cause a lot of changes in the amplifier since the filament temperature is affected along with the operating voltages (and currents). Even in a class D amp (if it makes any substantial power) you can measure changes in the output power by simply changing power cords. Its less profound than in other amplifier topologies because class D is so much more efficient. But at higher power levels that sort of thing shows up. In the face of it, probably not a big deal but it is measurable and easily so. As to whether that’s a waste of money is an entirely different topic; I have friends and relatives that think I’ve wasted a lot of money on my stereo and I do this for a living, ’so take that what you will.’ 🤣 |
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Copper with a dielectric of whatever non-conductive material, don't care - PCB is not in scope, we can't make the board with Mundorf traces, at least not yet. You might want to try experimenting yourself, it's astounding what changes like this can bring, whether it's in your encyclopedia set or not. |
For years I have modified amps changing out the power cords ( non iec inlets ) to heavier gauge, speaker wire to the output posts, and in some cases, the low level signal wires. Always made a sq difference, usually for the better. Unless someone tries it, they should not have an opinion on whether it changes the sound, or not. Just my opinion and experience. Always, MrD. |
Except they would and do depending on the vehicle. A high performance exhaust system made in high volume is but a small price adder and if it is increasing performance then it should be increasing MPG, highly saleable today. However that performance comes with trade-offs. The exhaust gives higher RPM horsepower, but usually gives up some low RPM torque. It likely results in a more peaky HP curve hurting how the car feels, while obviously being louder, and in real world driving, does not improve the MPG.
There are probably better analogies even for electronics where you could ask yourself why they don't use silver wire. I will leave those up to you.
What do you think the PCB traces that carry the majority of the signal are made of? What is the dielectric of the PCB? I would take that bet without hesitation. HD used to sell something equivalent to AWM1015. Maybe they still do. |
Well, we are not talking binary function, a coat hanger might make it functional too, and I would never state I know more than an engineer, but I can say with a high degree of confidence a sterling conductor in the chain, no matter the variables changes the sound - usually for the better in my experience, and when we might compare this to pieces of copper Appliance Wire (AWM) used in the stock amp, not too far off from Home Depot material, I would bet fairly heavily Mundorf will be a change for the better. Rhetorical question but why would one install a high end exhaust system in their vintage car to gain a few horse power and enjoy the job, knowing that Ford or Toyota wouldn’t install that level of exhaust quality out of the factory - engineers know there is better, but there is a business decision. I enjoy doing it, and if the question is, is it all worth it for an estimated 10-15% change or improvement, I’d say yes maybe contrary to many, in my case and opinion, sure.. It’s my mustang. |
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No, and I’d probably agree with them on that, I’ve used both their cable and others with no detectable change. In fact no power changes I’ve heard have made much impact on any of my equipment, at least not yet. It’s all about signal. Bryston used 1015 type AWM as internal amp wire on everything - internal power, but also board to speaker post - Here is an example - Lots to improve upon here I think: |
@rickysnit Bryston was one of the few amp vendors also to state that aftermarket power cords are a total waste or money, so take that what you will. That does not impact their business model at all. |
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Wow! Nothing has changed. Nothing you have learned over the past three years and your past (now banned) 15 usernames. Same insulting, childish deranged posts. I guess you have figured out already that no matter how many times they ban you, you can always come back here with yet another name. Sick
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Well, delusional idiocy might be taking the description of an upgrade experiment a bit far, it can be delusional idiocy which finds new things, and most here I think enjoy this experimentation, I do - change the sound profile, experiment..
In my case, Bryston the company is about great audio - but not completely, they are a business whose mission is to move boxes, I can very well see why they wouldn't install €100 German cable - and not even for all runs in the amp. What they used was a business decision. I ordered the cable, let's go, let's see. |
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Almost overwhelmed and very grateful for all of the lively and informative opinions here, and it’s much appreciated gentlemen, thank you. I referenced an old Bryston, mine is a 4B ST. I really appreciate the gents with experience with this particular Mundorf cable I’m considering, and also those who haven’t upgraded any internal wire. I view it as a reduction in weak links. Weak links are inevitable, one less of them, it’s like one more high end interconnect in the mix. Each binding post, each banana plug takes something, goal here is to up the score by 1. The wire in my view is horrendous at 100 Euro for 1M, laughable, but I’d only need 1M of it. The holes on the board are nice, the boards are nice, they are eyelets which fit a 14awg max, so would fit that 15.5awg/1.5mm elegantly - on that amp, they then connect via faston to the binding posts - I found some ’better’ furutech ones. All has been encouraging to move forward with this project, interesting to think about the bass and clarity I’d get with 14 awg silver solid core, Mundorf. Love reading your great stories and experiences! |
Would it not make more logic to just buy a new amp? Then if you are going to replace the wire should you not replace all other components and the power supply. What about replace all the connection points.? Again just buy a new amp! Your logic is to replace a perceived weak link and will just make another link the weak link and on and on? |
My custom built 300B SET monoblocks has OCC silver internal wire and same for output transformers, I did replace a couple internal wires with Duelund dca for a bit more warmth. My speakers wired with combo Furutech and Duelund dca, Jantzen solid core and litz inductors. I've been experimenting with wire for years, with many components and cables, to claim it doesn't result in changes in sound simply means you've never attempted it. |
I agree with those who are saying enough is enough. On my speaker designs, I use a better quality wire inside of them than most Major manufacturers do, but that is even overkill. A couple of years back Belden did a study and claimed that their CAT5 wire was quite sufficient for Audiophile grade connections up to 10 feet. and you are concerned over 4 inches or less?!?! |
My guess is those internal amp wires are too short to make a difference and you might do more harm than good removing them and (poor) hand soldering new ones. But if you like to go for it ... don’t forget the wires inside your speakers. Depending upon their size there may be more length there and you may be amazed, after you just got your $5000 speaker cables, what standard wires inside the cabinets you have attached them to. |
Well the melting point seems like it should be the last reason to use teflon. The teflon dielectric constant (k) is ~2, and I think that PVC is k=~4.0. K=2 is a lot lower than 4, so that is a good (and better) reason to use teflon over PVC.
There is some degradation from UV, drying out, and maybe other things. How much heat is generated in the tube equipment? The insulation only needs to insulate the wires electrically. They do not need to be insulted for heat and cold, like a wool jumper, or down jacket. And they do not need protection from heat. The insulation is to protect them from arcing or shorting.
It is not like the amp is mission critical, or crashing over waves 24/7 in a way that requires the insulation to not chafe over time.
I would still be using the teflon before I would use consider using PVC, just not for the reason of heat protection. |