Amp Internal Wire

What piece of equipment are you looking to rewire? If you’re not sure what wire to use, do you feel confident to solder and rewire equipment? In the past for real short leads such as from a board to rca jacks on the rear panel I used to use Wonder Wire I purchased from Michael Percy. For longer runs I found Kimber Kable varistrand to work well… a lot of places sell this and probably buy direct from Kimber too.

Neotech UP-OCC solid core copper in Teflon. Pick your gauge. 

PartsConnexion

What came first. Amp manufacturers using expensive wire in their amps or too many audiophiles thinking they were the next Einstein? That should answer your question.

@noromance nailed it. Sonic Craft also sells the same Neotech wire.  

Well, I'm thinking Mercedes.. What do you guys think of this ? Thinking, if I am going through the trouble to do this, why not take it to the next level?

https://www.mundorf.com/audio/en/shop/Cables/MConnect_SGW/

Knowing Mundorf is amazing and silver makes a great sonic difference. What I’m not so sure of is, would a short run inside of an amp make a large enough difference? Certainly does on an interconnect, and I’d have it to Canare OFC speaker wire externally..

Thing is, you think 1.5mm (14-15awg) is enough for 250wpc? Probably way more than enough I’d think..

 

Knowing Mundorf is amazing and silver makes a great sonic difference.

How do we know ^those two things^ are true?

How do we know ^those two things^ are true?

'We', not sure. I do from personal experience with interconnects and other Mundorf products. Their MCap Solder is divine :) My use case though would be from the board to the speaker binding posts, maybe I should consider their multiple conductor type twisted, make overall larger gauge and have the twisted separation - dunno..

I have used both of these conductors in my projects. The newer Mundorf wire is nice, but a tad tilted up in the presence frequencies. I preferred the solid core Neotech’s body, slight warmth and neutrality in the upper mids. I also found the bass to be more fulsome and impactful.

Rickysnit, I've done this, both the power inlet, fuse holder and internal wire to transformer, and the speaker wire from amp board to binding posts (along with upgrading binding posts), in a Perreaux PMF3150.  Also replaced the RCA inlets with KLE Pure Harmony with VH Audio 21awg silver occ wire.  All done in stages with testing in between.

For  the speaker wire, the best improvement was eliminating the binding posts.  I ran the same wire (VH Audio ofc) from amp board to binding post (which I replaced with WBT), then same wire from amp binding post to speaker binding post.  Wiring direct from the amp board to speaker binding post was a definite improvement, even after the WBT change. 

I have CSS speakers, and recently purchased the new tweeter and upgrade crossover - I soldered VH Audio 18awg UP-OCC to crossover, drilled 2 small holes in speaker and ran wires direct to the amp board (no posts in signal path), unquestionable improvement in what I perceive as 'speed' and 'resolution'.  The same wire is used internally from xover to tweeter and mid.  (Bass is handled by pair of GR Research open baffle subs).

I don't know about only changing the speaker wire internally, as I changed the binding posts at the same time, going from factory cheap steel to WBT (copper), with a small but welcome improvement.  This exercise demonstrated just how bad it is having large chunks of standard quality metal in the signal path.  You may find a slight improvement with changing just the wire, my experience is the binding posts are the biggest detriments, huge thanks to Ricevs on here for highlighting that which drove my curiosity and now much improved sound.  For your Bryston, maybe try the wiring first, then try skipping the binding posts and wire either direct or as close to the amp board outputs as possible to see if there may be benefit. 

Yes, it all matters. Better quality transformers, foil inductors, chassis IEC, resistors, caps, rectifiers and on and on…Sorry it’s not as simple or cut and dry as you would like to have it. Seems the world of audio and electronics is full of possibilities! All good. No one person can know even a small percentage of what is out there to learn in this field. You are just realizing your limited knowledge and we all suffer from that reality if we are honest.

Rickysnit, I've done this, both the power inlet, fuse holder and internal wire to transformer, and the speaker wire from amp board to binding posts (along with upgrading binding posts), in a Perreaux PMF3150.  Also replaced the RCA inlets with KLE Pure Harmony with VH Audio 21awg silver occ wire.  All done in stages with testing in between.

What kind of testing?

Listening tests.  The best test of all.  

I could imagine the stuff before the transformer affecting the DC supply’s voltage stability. But without a measurement showing it, it seems more hopeful than factual.

The stuff after the power supply is harder to measure. 

If you can't tell me the Q and self resonance of those fancy foil inductors then you are buying them for looks.  Educate me on why a foil inductor is better.  There was no need to illustrate my point, but thank you for doing it. There are a lot of things that matter in audio. There are a lot of things that do not. Audiophiles for some reason are far more obsessed with the things that do not matter than the things that do.

 

God, grant me the expertise to recognize the variables that are not sensitive, the acumen to change the ones that are, and the knowledge to know the difference.

Oh, it's you again, with a different name.
39 posts in 4 days.
You're slowing down.

20 yrs ago , my friend look at the inside of my Plinius sa 100 amp , he thought replacing the wire or like plate like would help, We both listen on the wire that we choose, we end up using Audioquest solid core, result is more balance tone.Listening after is the ultimate test.

rickysnit

I used Cardas chassis wire and their solder , also their speaker binding post and RCA connectors .   9.5 awg from board to speaker posts !  and 20 awg from rca connectors to board .  Cardas is harder to work with than most because you have to use a solder pot .  

Neotech stranded wire would be a great upgrade .

@theaudiomaniac :

 

Oh boy.... it did not take you long to resurface here yet another time. I sounds like I now have to another name in my long list:

 

theaudioamp

deludedaudiophile

 

thynamesinnervoice

 

cindyment

 

snratio

 

yesiamjohn

 

sugabooger

 

dletch2

 

audio2design

 

dannad

 

roberttdid

 

roberttcan

 

heaudio123

 

audiozenology

 

atdavid

Like I said, @holmz , all  yours. Crazy posts draw out crazy people.

Crazy posts draw out crazy people

 

What is crazy, and crazy as in borderline of insanity, is you coming back here so many times. It does not matter how many times they kick you out, you are back pronto. This time it only took you 9 days since your last username was banned. And to think you have to create (yet) another Gmail address to be able to create a new username here, is ... well....

You had the same reaction last time you were called out as now.
You're not fooling anyone.

I think some internal wiring in my LSA Voyager 350 GAN was replaced when I got it modded. It sounded much better after the mod.

 

Bryston has a deal where they are upgrading old models to required or better spec for all their old models. This program started a few weeks ago and I think is still running.

https://bryston.com/trade-up/

 

 

@nonoise 

You had the same reaction last time you were called out as now.
You're not fooling anyone

👍

Charles

I'm not getting into the debate over conductor material but would recommend Teflon for the insulator.  Why?  High melting temperature so less likely to damage it while soldering and then there is the whole low dielectric absorption thing.

@theaudiomaniac Pot meet Kettle.

 

+1 @juanmanuelfangioii 

The first time you take a vintage piece apart, you may be shocked at the simple quality and small diameter wires you find.

Keep in mind, this is within the pieces that produced results that made the reputations of these great companies.

You mentioned amps, but I will never forget what I found inside the Fisher/Electro-Voice speakers I inherited, (made in 1958)

The wires looked just like these:

http://www.fisherdoctor.com/ev.html

just came across this tidbit

"They decided to focus their business on audio products. The company designed a PA system for Notre Dame football coach Knute Rockne. Rockne, who had difficulty being heard at football practices due to health problems that affected his voice, called the new PA system his "electric voice". Rockne’s remark inspired the company’s name. On June 1, 1930, Burroughs and Kahn incorporated under the name "Electro-Voice".^[2][3]"

 

Amp Internal Wire Any thoughts?

I like the internal wire this company uses in their amps. See below:

Mike

amplifiers in the world.

Scroll to learn more.

 

Manufacturing Process 

Our amplifiers are assembled and wired by hand at our factory in Massachusetts. Analog sections of our products utilize individual, discrete components—no chips!—and all wiring is point-to-point. These techniques are labor-intensive and far more costly than what you’ll find in throw-away electronics, but ensure a lifetime of reliable performance and serviceability.

 

Completely Hand Wired 

Wiring and soldering of all Rogers products meet Military Standard 2000 requirements—sometimes called “Mil-Spec”. All our assembly technicians are trained and tested on these high standards.
 

 

Dual Power Supply Circuits 

Dual linear power supplies can easily handle large dynamic transitions in the audio signal, while maintaining a smooth and clear midrange. Vocals are presented with a truly rich and warm feel.
 

 

Internal Wiring 

Wiring is the signal path of any amplifier, and it does make a difference in both durability and performance. We use 18 gauge Military Standard 16878 teflon coated, silver plated copper wire. This is expensive (besides being a mouthful!), but is used in mission-critical applications like the Navy’s AEGIS cruisers. Teflon coating provides heat-protection for decades, where common PVC-coated wire will crack and degrade over time. The 18 gauge wire provides greater signal capability than a trace on a printed circuit board, and ensures that the amplifier will be stable under any condition, and will never limit the dynamic range or transient abilities of your amp.

 

MIL16878 is PTFE coated. You can buy 16878 inexpensively. I have used it before because I needed the voltage rating for a given total diameter. It was not very expensive. Silver plating would add cost, but is overkill compared to tinned.

Standard irradiated PVC wire that is not exposed to the sun or very high temperature is going to last 50+ years. Using a heat gun that goes up to 300+ Celsius is not very representative of normal operation. For tube amps, sure, why not, if you are worried about wire routing and heat. It is < $1.00/foot even in a 100 foot spool/18 awg. Not going to break the bank on a DIY.

@theaudiomaniac

Like I said, @holmz , all yours. Crazy posts draw out crazy people.

How would we know it is crazy?
There are no measurements or rational indicators to go by.

I can see inductors and transformers making a difference.
And the even capacitors and wire dielectrics.
It would be nice if someone could quantify some aspect of it.

 

All that needs to be done is some before and after of the DC power supply rail voltage. Without that, it seems like a story or myth.
But if it has some damage or needs rewiring, then changing it probably makes some sense.

 

Internal Wiring

Wiring is the signal path of any amplifier, and it does make a difference in both durability and performance. We use 18 gauge Military Standard 16878 teflon coated, silver plated copper wire. This is expensive (besides being a mouthful!), but is used in mission-critical applications like the Navy’s AEGIS cruisers. Teflon coating provides heat-protection for decades, where common PVC-coated wire will crack and degrade over time. The 18 gauge wire provides greater signal capability than a trace on a printed circuit board, and ensures that the amplifier will be stable under any condition, and will never limit the dynamic range or transient abilities of your amp.

They use that Tefzel stuff in plane and race cars, and it is also great at not chaffing through the insulation. But an amplifier is not usually vibrating like a race car or fighter jet, or rocket launch.

I use it myself, but it will not make an amplifier magic without the circuit design providing some of the magic.

It is much the same way that the most expensive saffron in the world, will not make a pork roast taste any better. But it might help an Indian curry .

Thanks @thyname 

I wondered what happened to

theaudioamp

deludedaudiophile

 

thynamesinnervoice

 

cindyment

 

snratio

 

yesiamjohn

 

sugabooger

 

dletch2

 

audio2design

 

dannad

 

roberttdid

 

roberttcan

 

heaudio123

 

audiozenology

 

atdavid

That is on crowded place between those ears.

This is TOTALLY subjective, based on what I did a few years ago. I re-wired and updated an old Dynaco Preamp - I forget the model number - PAS3? In any case, just for laughs, I replaced my SS pre-amp with the Dynaco, and was blown away by the increase in SQ, mostly dynamics. After a few hours, I replaced all the internal wiring, which was part of the upgrade plan. I used Kimber Kable, I think, and the existing wiring was all original. I plugged it back in and it sounded like crap. I let it go with some CD's playing while I had dinner. After dinner, the sound was better than before - still the dynamics, but also the highs were clearer - at least to me.  So definitely worth the effort to re-wire. I got two lessons from this - tubes blow away SS for SQ, and wire DOES make a difference. Enjoy.

Be aware: when teflon insulation is heated beyond about 475 F, it begins to decompose into highly toxic fumes. When I solder wire with teflon dielectric, I use a fume hood and a respirator rated for HF (hydrogen fluoride), at eye level if possible. 

YMMV

@theaudiomaniac 

 

Nailed it! Just when you think people can't get sillier. Why not go full re-mod and replace anything you can? Volume pots? transistors? resisters? diodes? etc 

😐

I'm not getting into the debate over conductor material but would recommend Teflon for the insulator.  Why?  High melting temperature so less likely to damage it while soldering and then there is the whole low dielectric absorption thing.

Well the melting point seems like it should be the last reason to use teflon.

The teflon dielectric constant (k) is ~2, and I think that PVC is k=~4.0.
Cotton has a k around 1.3-1.4

K=2 is a lot lower than 4, so that is a good (and better) reason to use teflon over PVC.

 

like the Navy’s AEGIS cruisers. Teflon coating provides heat-protection for decades, where common PVC-coated wire will crack and degrade over time. 

There is some degradation from UV, drying out, and maybe other things.

How much heat is generated in the tube equipment? The insulation only needs to insulate the wires electrically. They do not need to be insulted for heat and cold, like a wool jumper, or down jacket.

And they do not need protection from heat. The insulation is to protect them from arcing or shorting.

 

It is not like the amp is mission critical, or crashing over waves 24/7 in a way that requires the insulation to not chafe over time.

 

I would still be using the teflon before I would use consider using PVC, just not for the reason of heat protection.

@nonoise @thyname . Yep

 

OP:

I am very familiar with the wire you are thinking about and can tell you it is wonderful. My favorite in fact. I have a lot of it in my system but have never rewired an amp with it.   

My guess is those internal amp wires are too short to make a difference and you might do more harm than good removing them and (poor) hand soldering new ones.

But if you like to go for it ... don’t forget the wires inside your speakers. Depending upon their size there may be more length there and you may be amazed, after you just got your $5000 speaker cables, what standard wires inside the cabinets you have attached them to.

I agree with those who are saying enough is enough. On my speaker designs, I use a better quality wire inside of them than most Major manufacturers do, but that is even overkill. A couple of years back Belden did a study and claimed that their CAT5  wire was quite sufficient for Audiophile grade connections up to 10 feet. and you are concerned over 4 inches or less?!?!

Now I might not agree with Belden, but that is what you will find inside speakers for less than $5000 in many cases. ANy High-End Company worth its salt has done its homework and knows that we are talking about things here that are so far beyond being measurable it is ridiculous.

My custom built 300B SET monoblocks has OCC silver internal wire and same for output transformers, I did replace a couple internal wires with Duelund dca for a bit more warmth. My speakers wired with combo Furutech and Duelund dca, Jantzen solid core and litz inductors. I've been experimenting with wire for years, with many components and cables, to claim it doesn't result in changes in sound simply means you've never attempted it.

Time is so precious, I would rather spend it on something else. I can solder well, just don’t really enjoy it. To each his own, enjoy the time you’re given.

Would it not make more logic to just buy a new amp?

Then if you are going to replace the wire should you not replace all other components and the power supply. What about replace all the connection points.? Again just buy a new amp! Your logic is to replace a perceived weak link and will just make another link the weak link and on and on?

Almost overwhelmed and very grateful for all of the lively and informative opinions here, and it’s much appreciated gentlemen, thank you.

I referenced an old Bryston, mine is a 4B ST. I really appreciate the gents with experience with this particular Mundorf cable I’m considering, and also those who haven’t upgraded any internal wire. I view it as a reduction in weak links. Weak links are inevitable, one less of them, it’s like one more high end interconnect in the mix. Each binding post, each banana plug takes something, goal here is to up the score by 1.

The wire in my view is horrendous at 100 Euro for 1M, laughable, but I’d only need 1M of it.

The holes on the board are nice, the boards are nice, they are eyelets which fit a 14awg max, so would fit that 15.5awg/1.5mm elegantly - on that amp, they then connect via faston to the binding posts - I found some ’better’ furutech ones.

All has been encouraging to move forward with this project, interesting to think about the bass and clarity I’d get with 14 awg silver solid core, Mundorf.

Love reading your great stories and experiences!

This is not necessarily replacing a weak link, in many cases its just change in voicing, coloring. Certainly amp with point to point wiring going to be far more amenable to cable changes, changing out a single or couple wires in component using circuit board probably not worth it.

100%, I had a conversation with a chap who compared options with a parametric EQ, I could see his point.

Interesting to think that you keep returning to an audiophile forum after getting kicked out, repeatedly, just to ruin any discussion you can. Tell me, was your mother frightened by an audiophile when she was carrying you?

All the best,
Nonoise

Well, delusional idiocy might be taking the description of an upgrade experiment a bit far, it can be delusional idiocy which finds new things, and most here I think enjoy this experimentation, I do - change the sound profile, experiment..

 

In my case, Bryston the company is about great audio - but not completely, they are a business whose mission is to move boxes, I can very well see why they wouldn't install €100 German cable  - and not even for all runs in the amp. What they used was a business decision. I ordered the cable, let's go, let's see.