I installed a 20 amp dedicated circuit, a ZeroSurge 8R20W power conditioner, a hospital grade outlet, and a 10 gauge power cord. Also moved my router to a different circuit, farther away to avoid EMI. None of it made any difference that I could tell.
AC Power
I have a relatively nice system, but have done nothing with my AC power, with the exception of upgraded PC’s and a cheap iFi plug in power conditioner. My question is multi fold… do I need to do something, and if so what? Dedicated line (15A or 20?)? Quality power conditioner? Both? Which one first? How do you tell?
My system is a combination of HT & 2 channel & I tend to use both simultaneously as I like to watch sports while listening to music.
My amp is (I think) a relatively low draw… Moon 330A, Rythmik sub, BHK pre, Aurender, Qutest w/Sbooster, R11’s. No high power amps are in my future & never listen above 75db. I do currently plug my amp directly into the wall. All my wall warts are gone. For my HT, add a 75” Sony TV, Marantz 7015 AVR & a Klipsch sub (although at zero volume the AVR & sub should not come into play).
I am considering buying the Furman IT-Reference 15i or 20i first as they are well reviewed & are priced very well on Amazon ($1,400 / $1,900). Before I pull the trigger, should I go dedicated power & at what amperage (my nephew, an EE & audiophile thinks I am drawing no more than 5 amps) as that will dictate the Furman model?
Interesting, my nephew thinks neither are worth the investment. His statement: “Do you have appliances on the circuit now? What kind of interference can they inject?...voltage drops would come from current draws...which trip breakers.
Not steady 60hz a good power supply handles. So it all comes back to was the power supply engineer dropped on his head as a child.”
”Personally I think it’s something audio people do when they have run out of gear to buy.”
Any thoughts or recommendations would be appreciated. Thanks!
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I’m sorry @xenolith - but this is not necessarily true. Could you point me to an example? I’m not ragging on balanced, but the technology involved in creating balanced power is a separate technology from voltage regulation. Balanced power is achieved very simply with a transformer with near 1:1 windings. Usually a little more like 1:1.1 to allow for losses under load. This means the output voltage is always some ratio of input, and is therefore at the mercy of the input. BTW, the 220V you get from the power company is an example of balanced power. If you think balanced power always gives you a fixed voltage, well... there you go. Now, you CAN do both voltage regulation AND balanced power conditioning, but that doesn’t mean balanced power is always regulated. |
Maybe worth talking a little about "old school" regulators like Furman vs. PS Audio. Transformer based regulators have a fixed number of taps which are like holes on a belt. The conditioner constantly picks the best tap based on the output voltage. When that tap no longer is ideal it will switch. This means that adjustments are in about 5 volt increments either way. The advantage of this technology is efficiency and lack of switching noise in the AC signal. PS Audio uses Class D amplifiers to regenerate the output. Very expensive, very big and has switching noise on the output. Still, the benefits are a rock solid 120V +- about 1 Volt at all times as well as an unrivaled ability to deal with incoming AC noise and irregularities. |
@mswale said:
I assume you mean the circuit breakers in an electrical panel. The breakers in the electrical panel are Thermal Magnetic Breakers. Per NEC, (National Electrical Code), only breakers Listed by the panel manufacturer can be used in the electrical panel. All branch circuit breakers used in electrical panels are Thermal Magnetic type breakers. You wouldn’t want just a magnetic type breaker. The thermal trip unit is for normal overloading of a circuit. It has a bi-metal strip that the circuit current flows through. When too much current passes through it the breaker trips open. (breaker trip curve). The magnetic unit in the breaker is for short circuit faults.The magnet trip part of the breaker is also what trips the breaker when there is high inrush current. (Good example is an old across the AC Line big power Krell power Amp). Here is a video of how it works. Note the panel shown is a Square D QO load center with a main breaker. The breaker used in the demonstration is an Eaton 15 amp breaker. Guys, don’t do this at home! . . FWIW. The video is of a regular type thermal magnetic breaker. Breakers found in new homes are still thermal magnetic breakers but also are AFCI, Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter, breakers. These are not cheap, They are expensive. Then there are GFCI, Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter, breakers. AFCI / GFCI Dual Function circuit breakers. They are really expensive! All these breakers also have a thermal magnetic trip mechanism built into them too. . |
OK, my decision has been made. I am sold on the AR features. I will purchase the Furman P 2400 AR vs the 1800 for the following reasons: 1. Both have the AR features 2. It will be compatible with both 15A short term & 20A long term 3. The spacing of the rear outlets should allow large audiophile plugs 4. The captive (why captive?) PC is 12GA vs 14GA for the 1800 5. It is larger & may be more robust 5. Only $300 more on Amazon I will install it vertically behind my long rack. That will allow me to use my existing PC’s & provide good spacing between my components and it. Thank you all for your outstanding recommendations! Great thread. I learned a lot from very knowledgeable people! Note: The 1800 AR listed on Amazon may in fact be the 1800 PF A, a non AR model. While it is described as an AR, if you zoom in on the picture it is a PF A. Most reviewers describe the AR features, but one flatly stated it was a PF A. Regardless returnable if not an AR.
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Generally speaking, @jea48 is right about not mixing breakers. Technically speaking, if you are mixing breaker brands the breaker has to be "listed" as being tested with the other maker’s panel. I believe this has to do with the maximum interrupt current of the individual vs. main breakers. In any event... Even if you do get a "listed" breaker, when you go to sell the inspector probably won’t bother to check if it’s listed or not and will flag it as something to be corrected. Just not worth the hassle or potential $10 in savings. So.... I generally also recommend sticking with the panel maker’s breakers even though you may find a listed breaker to use instead, and always stick to the NEC and local ordinances. If you are replacing a CAFCI or GFCI or combo breaker always replace it with the same feature set. (Exception is old AFCI are now called CAFCI and that is good!).. |
@signaforce Said:
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Problem... The Furman P 2400 AR has a NEMA 5-20P 20 amp plug. It will not plug into your 5-15R 15A wall outlet. Look at the photo of the P-2400 AR 20A Plug and the 20A receptacle required. Technically you will need a 20A branch circuit installed. The captive cord, I believe, was installed on the unit so it could get it safety test Listed. Listed like UL Listed or any other NRTL Listing. FYI, just guessing, (You know) you will never use a total of up to 15 amps of a combined continuous connected load. Continuous is defined 3 hours or more, NEC.
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I missed where you are ever getting close to 15A, let alone 20A. However, if you insist on a 20A unit, you’ll need to replace the plug. I use Leviton Hospital Grade plugs because their thick prongs are tighter but also the 90 degree angle takes less floor space and is less likely to wiggle out due to cable movement and leverage. Actually I only use a 15A conditioner, but still replaced the plug to keep the cable against the wall. This let me push a bass trap flat to the wall where the plug is. |
@erik_squires said:
First, per NEC, all circuit breakers shall be Listed. Quote: NEC 110.3(B) Installation and Use. Equipment that is listed, labeled, or both shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling. End of quote. The section is talking about the manufacturer of the electrical panel. Not because a different manufacturer breaker is Listed. The different manufacturer’s breaker is not approved for use in the panel by the manufacturer of the panel. .
True, are any of them home inspectors retired licensed electrical inspectors or retired licensed electricians? The extent of their electrical knowledge is to use a plug-in circuit tester to check for an Open Ground at wall outlets. And GFCI outlets required in the house per Code. As for installing a different manufacturer’s circuit breaker in another’s manufacturers electrical panel that has been in the NEC for years. I know first hand, on a few instances the electrical inspector seen the violation. Not I ,well maybe I did, but usually the breaker was installed by a different electrical contractor/electrician previously. Problem is doing electrical work in old buildings in a city where a remodel is taking place. The General Contractor pulls a permit... All subs pull permits. The general contractor can’t call for an inspection until the subs call for an inspection, (if a sub’s work needs inspection before the general contractor’s inspection.) Problem for the Electrical contractor/Electrician? Usually at the final electrical inspection. The electrical inspector will say something like "did you add any new circuits?" LOL, he knows you did... "Show me the panel." Usually the circuit breaker manufacturer’s name is on the face of the breaker. Problem? The electrical panel manufacturer went out of business years ago. There are no NOS stock breakers. There definitely are not any Tandem breakers. They didn’t exist back then. . |
I really think buying the manufacturer's breaker is your best option but if anyone cares here's further discussion:
https://www.relectric.com/training/what-circuit-breakers-are-interchangeable/ |
@jea48 Thanks! Good catch. |
@erik_squires Agreed, the P2400 has plenty of space for audiophile PC’s… one of my reasons for choosing it. The P1800 is a different story on the right leg… ego the potential issue. Thanks |
@signaforce , I sent you a PM through the Agon message system. |
@jea48 I received it… thanks! You should have received a couple replies. |
I am back to buying the P-2400 for all the reasons I stated earlier…+ not only spacing of outlets, but number of outlets. At 39lb, It is substantially more robust than the 15lb P-1800. It retails for more than $1,500 more than the P-1800 but sells for only $300 more. |
I think I would plug it into the analog. My reasoning is based on the linear power supply in the AVR. You can always try it both ways. Listen for differences. Look at the photo of the power transformer inside of the AVR. Power transformer is on the front left hand side. I believe that is a Bobbin type power transformer. It doesn’t look an like EI transformer to me. // Side note. When you receive the Furman P 2400 and plug everything into it make sure the plugged in equipment with power transformers, like power amplifiers, are powered off. Because of the VA rating size of the Toroidal isolation power transformer in the P 2400 the initial turn-on inrush current will be fairly high, then quickly fall off. You don’t want to add any loads on the P 2400 transformer to add any additional inrush current onto the 15 amp circuit breaker in the electrical panel, that may cause it trip open. (Unless the P 2400 has a soft start circuit built into it to limit power-on inrush current.) ??? The bigger the VA rating of a power transformer the better, when used to feed power amplifiers. . |
Here are my observations. Enough to hear a noticeable difference - not night & day. Compromises are made - and we do what works best for each of our circumstances. - - - - - As you can see, I also have Transparent cabling. |
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@jea48 @steakster Thank you! |
@jea48 both my DAC & streamer have LPS’s, but I would treat them as digital… correct? Thanks for all your outstanding help. |
@erik_squires Thanks! |
Also, it's my experience that autotransformers like used in voltage regulators don't have the mass inrush current that the dual winding transformers have which are used in isolators. I could be wrong, but this is my memory. When I turn my 1800VA unit on and off there's no dimming of the lights or any other sign it's on besides the LEDs. I've had isolators and yeah, they behaved just like having a big amp. |
From the Furman P-2400 Owner’s Manual
WOW! . . An autotransformer does not provide isolation from the AC mains to the output side of the transformer. That is not the purpose, intention, of the design of the use of the eight tap toroidal "autoformer" in the P-2400. . |
@jea48 I read that… sounded good but wasn’t sure what it meant. I assume based upon your reaction, that is good. 😃 |
I consider @erik_squires the Audiogon resident expert on Furman power conditioners. He has more knowledge than I on Furman power condioners technologically. @erik_squires is better qualified than I to answer your question regarding the design and circuitry of voltage regulation of the P-2400.
As for me the way the P-2400 voltage regulation, design, circuitry, is implemented sounds pretty sophisticated to me. Switching from a winding tap to another winding tap without causing a distortion in the sine wave or any type, no mater how fast, the switching method used is not an easy thing to do. Furmam seems to have it figured out without the user hearing anything from his audio system. If not you would be reading about it on the Net.
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@jea48 - The approach Furman takes, which appears to be to switch as close to the zero Volt crossing of the AC waveform is pretty thoughtful and not common among all regulators out there. IMHO it’s a very cost effective design overall. Interestingly enough, Roger Sander’s Magtech amps take on a similar approach, offering rock solid power rails to an overbuilt output stage made by Coda. In that case however, while he does switch taps at 0V, instead of using an autoformer he switches taps on the main power supply transformer, which of course is quite custom. |
@carlsbad2 That’s twice you have been an a.. on my forum. |
@carlsbad2 A piece of equipment I purchased & looking forward to receiving as a result of this forum. Most people on the various forums are knowledgeable and helpful and have tact, but understand their recommendations may not be followed. |
@signaforce - I sympathize with you - upgrading multiple PCs can be expensive, but many believe the PC may be the most important cable sonically. Maybe try 1 PC and rotate between components to hear which has the most improvement if any. If you can borrow to decide, that would be the least committed. A few years ago, Audio Bacon had a PC shootout here which may be helpful. |
@wturkey +1 @kennyc My planned placement behind my system should allow the continued use of my existing upgraded PC’s. Thanks @carlsbad2 You appear to be a person that gets in a hole & keeps digging to justify your arrogance. Yes, I am fully aware of the 2400 capabilities. If semi extreme voltages occur 125v+, 115v-, the unit corrects to 120v. Anything else, my well designed PS Audio/Simaudio power supplies can easily handle. It will also provide conditioned isolation between my digital & audio components at a price my wife can live with. |
The "dirt" in AC is higher frequencies than 60 Hz. capacitive reactance goes down with the power supply capacitors shunting these unwanted signals to ground and up in the inductors in power supplies, stopping them from making it through to the DC output in pi network power supplies. If you are using tubes, you are not using voltage regulators that might be affected by such noise, and you are not drawing so much current during loud passages, which you do not with steady current draw in class A, single ended triode amplifiers, you should be just fine. Many power supplies convert the AC to a higher frequency to make capacitor and inductor filters more effective, particularly in phono preamps and DAC's. |
@drbarney1 Thanks. I have a tube front pre (BHK) and a SS amp (Simaudio). |
Yes, it IS real voltage regulation. I've been in several situations where it greatly improved my AC line compared to what was coming in, from under voltage to over voltages I get very narrow band of AC voltage, day in, day out and in every season or it shuts off. As I mentioned, it's a cost effective compromise. Your alternatives are PS Audio Power Plants, which yes, they do regulate the voltage more tightly for a lot more money. The Power Plant 15 MSRP is $8k and limited to 1200 VA. The OP is getting 2400 VA for $900 along with best in class surge protection. An 1800VA unit goes for ~ $600. A real bargain with exceptional capabilities. |
True, which makes series mode protection so good. They are effectively low pass filters which start working around 3kHz. That's a lot lower than EMI/RFI filters which usually start around 100kHz or so, far above the audible band.
@drbarney1 I've never seen this in a piece of linear audio gear, but I'm not a repair technician. Could you point me to a couple of examples of manufacturers who do this? |
OK, I have had 2 days with my new Furman P-2400;AR. A couple observations: 1. It is heavy. Carrying it up the stairs in its box was a chore for this 72 year old. 7. I had previously plugged my amp directly into the wall. I currently have it plugged into the Furman & can detect no loss in dynamics. Sound: Everything sounds better. Clearer, darker, more robust yet delicate during soft passages. Significant improvement in low volume listening. While both improved, digital improved more than analog, which I find interesting. Apparently my Aurender and Qutest w/Sbooster Ultra like clean full power. I may never listen to vinyl again… probably will but no longer need to for the best sound. |
