I have a relatively nice system, but have done nothing with my AC power, with the exception of upgraded PC’s and a cheap iFi plug in power conditioner. My question is multi fold… do I need to do something, and if so what? Dedicated line (15A or 20?)? Quality power conditioner? Both? Which one first? How do you tell?
My system is a combination of HT & 2 channel & I tend to use both simultaneously as I like to watch sports while listening to music.
My amp is (I think) a relatively low draw… Moon 330A, Rythmik sub, BHK pre, Aurender, Qutest w/Sbooster, R11’s. No high power amps are in my future & never listen above 75db. I do currently plug my amp directly into the wall. All my wall warts are gone. For my HT, add a 75” Sony TV, Marantz 7015 AVR & a Klipsch sub (although at zero volume the AVR & sub should not come into play).
I am considering buying the Furman IT-Reference 15i or 20i first as they are well reviewed & are priced very well on Amazon ($1,400 / $1,900). Before I pull the trigger, should I go dedicated power & at what amperage (my nephew, an EE & audiophile thinks I am drawing no more than 5 amps) as that will dictate the Furman model?
Interesting, my nephew thinks neither are worth the investment. His statement: “Do you have appliances on the circuit now? What kind of interference can they inject?...voltage drops would come from current draws...which trip breakers.
Not steady 60hz a good power supply handles. So it all comes back to was the power supply engineer dropped on his head as a child.”
”Personally I think it’s something audio people do when they have run out of gear to buy.”
Any thoughts or recommendations would be appreciated. Thanks!
I have a PS AUDIO regenerator 1200 on a stand alone 20 A... It made a wonderful difference and also made my TV picture better... Well worth the trip...
Yes, your observations of daily voltage variances are exactly why I recommend voltage regulation over a dedicated circuit OR balanced conditioner. Installing a 10 gauge, 30 Amp circuit is just not going to make up for those daily, seasonal or appliance based variations.
Also, yes, in some places I could definitely hear when the Furman was missing. Not sure what noise components were present but it sounded better with Furman than without it.
One more thing. When I originally set up the Furman, I decided to listen to Adele 30 vinyl “All night parking”. The clarity of Adele’s voice, the Erroll Gardner opening scratchiness & deep bass are very telling. I have listed to it 100’s of times.
It sounded terrible, No clarity, weak bass… problem. I immediately went to stream with everything sounding great.
Apparently, in my haste to set it up, I accidentally plugged my turntable into the digital side of the Furman. Once I rectified all was good.
2 things. This demonstrates how dirty digital can be and its negative influence on analog. Digital & analog isolation is critical… those who recommend it are apparently correct…
@erik_squires, just now I finally got around to checking av volts where I have my gera plugged in and I read 121.8. Assuming my readings stay right about there, that doesn't seem problematic, does it?
@immatthewj- I believe the utility companies consider anything between and including 110 VAC to 130 VAC to be within spec, so 121.8 is fine.
The performance issue for devices with linear power supplies, especially unregulated supplies (i.e. power amplifiers) are at the mercy of the incoming voltage so seasonal and daily fluctuations can affect them.
In my current home my worst AC is during the hot summer months when the utility power sags and my own heat pumps turn on and off. Otherwise it maintains close to 120VAC.
That's not including my monthly power event of some sort and storms.
I believe the utility companies consider anything between and including 110 VAC to 130 VAC to be within spec, so 121.8 is fine.
The performance issue for devices with linear power supplies, especially unregulated supplies (i.e. power amplifiers) are at the mercy of the incoming voltage so seasonal and daily fluctuations can affect them.
@erik_squires, as always, thank you for the time you spend offering informational content. As far as the Furman P-1800 AR, and I apologize because this has probably been addressed but as bad as my eyes are I cannot find it, you did say that voltage regulation is more important to you than isolation of components. But, judging from one of OP's follow ups, it does have an analogue side and a digital side? So I assume that to some extent it does isolate?
@immatthewj - The confusion is two different types of isolation we were discussing. I’ve long advocated for separating grunge producing devices from analog devices, especially on the "clean" side of a power conditioner, and the OP in this thread has discovered why. Several of my blog posts advocate using an inexpensive Furman power strip ( < $200) for your network and digital devices to prevent them from re-pollute a previously cleaned AC line.
When I say I’d prefer regulation vs. isolation, that is in the context of balanced power conditioners which use a transformer to galvanically isolate (kind of) the wall power from your devices. My years of watching the AC power line while my system plays has taught me that my biggest issues are fluctuating AC voltages, so I’d rather spend money there than on a big isolation transformer which can only really deal with short term transient issues.
Of course, if you can do both, that’s ideal! :D But from a dollar value point of view, a good regulator is a lot less expensive and will do more for you.
. . . Digital & analog isolation is critical… those who recommend it are apparently correct…
My first power conditioner in 2000 - A Bob Crump* designed Bybee Line Sucker - had separate analog & digital isolation. Easy to hear the difference. Currently, I have separate power conditioners which completely isolate analog from digital - and digital from digital.
For those who would like to take a deep dive into clean power, here is a link to observations by member, Kingrex. He specialized in wiring high-end recording studios and dedicated listening rooms - including Michael Fremer’s.
- - - -
* Bob Crump voiced the circuitry for the original Parasound JC-1 monoblocks. He partnered with John Curl on several audio projects.
It is my experience through many people asking for my assistance to eliminate some sort of noise, I find the issue is the audio equipment itself that is the culprit. I have seen it with 3 year old 40K monoblocks to brand new $20K phono stages.
If you want to get some of the effect of a good power conditioner at a cheap price than look for an original used monster cable hts-2000 power filter strip.
released around 2010 it works quite well and very noticeable positive effect on SQ.
can be had used for less than $50 on eBay.
I have several on secondary system and have given several to friends with entry level high end gear.
@erik_squiresErik, I have a $50 APC surge protector power strip for my modem, CD player, DVD & VCR on the same circuit as the rest of my equipment on my 2400. Except for the modem, the rest are seldom if ever used.
I assume you would recommend further isolation and the Furman power strip would do that? Thanks!
I’m of the school of thought that if you can’t hear it, you can’t hear it! So I don’t think that’s a bad arrangement in terms of audio.
However, in terms of surge vulnerability the modem is a concern. When I first moved to my current home in 2021 we had 4 homes with surge damage from the cable modem. Luckily everyone but me used Wifi, but I was OK. It’s not uncommon for a surge to enter a home through the coax cable and fry a number of Ethernet connected devices. The surge can enter via the coax and then find a path to ground via either the power supply or the Ethernet cables, if any. For these reasons I recommend:
Put the Modem’s power supply outside of any surge protection used for sensitive audio equipment.
Of course, I may be more paranoid than most due to living in a lightning prone area. Some A’goners have never had lightning damage so they don’t understand the fuss. :D Also, if all you use is Wifi you are less vulnerable to surges than those of use who hardwire their work PC's and HT systems.
PS - The issue is true for ANY copper based conductor, so cable TV, antennas, etc.
Lightning Arrestor for N-Type Antennas Surge Protector: Wouldn’t this work just as well inside of the house if inserted in-line before the modem? Ground it to the copper water pipes?
EverStar MI-300 Ethernet Galvanic Isolator: There are many Ethernet isolators available - some using transformers (like in NA’s Muon Pro) and others using fiber optic isolation like in the GigaFOIL range of Ethernet filters (i.e., fiber optic isolation link = FOIL). The price of these filters varies significantly. Users report a similarly wide range of performance variations between the available options with (surprise!) the more expensive solutions typically reported to sound better. Any tips on how a buyer should know which to purchase?
Wouldn’t this work just as well inside of the house if inserted in-line before the modem? Ground it to the copper water pipes?
Would you rather have a surge enter your home first, and then find a path to ground, or would you rather have it find a path to ground outside? By law there should be an external grounding block which is the ideal place to put one of these. Obviously if you are an apartment dweller you can't do that, so you do the best you can.
There are many Ethernet isolators available - some using transformers (like in NA’s Muon Pro) and others using fiber optic isolation like in the GigaFOIL range of Ethernet filters (i.e., fiber optic isolation link = FOIL). The price of these filters varies significantly.
Convenience and cost matter. The issue with isolators marketed to audio consumers is that they are not tested the same way that isolators for patient care devices are. The latter are tested to ensure 4kV of isolation from input to output, so if using an in-line Ethernet isolator make sure it’s tested to IEC 60601 (I think there’s a UL equivalent). Everstar is among the most affordable.
Between my modem and router I use Ethernet to Fiber isolators with a 1m air gap. At the end of runs from there to my home office or HT I use the Everstar isolators. About the same price per use. The fiber adapters run $20 each, plus the fiber optic cable.
Based on the latest research, avoid any Ethernet isolator/surge protector that grounds the signal, as those can be more dangerous. Since I don’t know which is which I never use the built-in isolators in power strips.
Forgot to mention, copper pipes haven't been considered good grounds for many years. In addition to not being that great to begin with the potential use of PVC pipes to break the connection to ground is a problem. Even if it's copper now, the next plumbing upgrade may break it.
Point is, no, grounding to a copper water pipe is no longer considered best practice. You want to run a copper wire and bond it to your house ground. The outside grounding block, which your cable installers put in already has this.
@erik_squires Thanks! I somewhat misspoke. It is a mesh router with an Ethernet backbone, not a modem. My (fiber) modem & main router are downstairs. I also have my HT sub plugged into my secondary power.
I am less concerned (famous last words) with a lightning strike as my house is surrounded by trees twice the height of my house. I am much more concerned with a tree falling on my house. 😒
I will order the Furman PST-8D for only $20 more than the standard PST-8. It will provide conditioned power via 2 isolated power banks, not only to isolating my sub from digital, but provides future protection as my TT may move there in the future.
Please let me know if I have any flaws in my logic. Thanks again!
While lightning may very well strike a tree, the surge it creates in your home can be several hundred volts, and a surge can travel for miles down a line.
Point is, no, grounding to a copper water pipe is no longer considered best practice. You want to run a copper wire and bond it to your house ground.
The outside grounding block, which your cable installers put in already has this.
Don't count on it!
Verify 100% it is connected to the System Ground, Grounding Electrode System, of the electrical service equipment.
Where does a CATV cable installer ground the grounding block if the cable point of attachment is on the other side of the House? I've seen where the installer stuck a stake in the earth and attached the ground block ground wire to the stake.
10 ft. captive 3/12 AWG, black cord with NEMA 20 plug. Mine is still gathered, as I only needed 3 feet, but would think 10’ is accurate.
10 ft. captive 12/3 AWG,
@signaforcedefine gathered. I would not coil the the remaining 7ft in a neat tight small diameter coil. Imo, a small coil would act as an inductor.
FYI do not cut off the cord to make it shorter. That more than likely would void the Furman 2400 warranty.
Just a guess, I could be wrong, the length of 10ft cord may be for the proper operation of the type 3 point of use SPD, (Surge protection Device) inside the unit. With a type 3 SPD the minimum length of the branch circuit wiring from the electrical panel to the SPD matters. The minimum length is 30ft.
Type 3– Point of utilization SPDs, installed at a minimum conductor length of 10 meters (30 feet) from the electrical service panel to the point of utilization, for example cord connected, direct plug-in, receptacle type SPDs installed at the utilization equipment being protected. The distance (10 meters) is exclusive of the conductors provided with or used to attach SPDs.
@jea48- Of course, always follow the rules, but the 30’ requirement AFAIK is to avoid excess current that is too high for the AIR (current interrupt rating) of panel breakers.
This is a problem for parallel based surge protectors. Furman, when labelled SMP, are series mode and limit current. The cord length is a convenience for professionals who often mount them in portable racks.
You kind of answer your own question here:
The distance (10 meters) is exclusive of the conductors provided with or used to attach SPDs.
IOW, the length of the SPD’s cord is irrelevant to the 30’ requirement.
Furman does make less expensive models which are not labelled SMP, which use plain old MOV's.
Of course, always follow the rules, but the 30’ requirement AFAIK is to avoid excess current that is too high for the AIR (current interrupt rating) of panel breakers.
Not the breaker... The minimum AIR interrupting rating for a residential dwelling circuit breaker is 10KA. You will see it on the front of the breaker.
The 30ft minimum distance requirement has to do with the fault current rating of the Type 3 SPD . Any idea what the Furman is rated at?
My understanding, the 30ft minimum length of the branch circuit wiring impedance will limit the current through the Type 3 SPD.
If a Type 3 SPD was plugged into an outlet 5ft from the electrical panel I assume in a lightning transient surge event, it could/would be fried.
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The distance (10 meters) is exclusive of the conductors provided with or used to attach SPDs.
That’s from UL, and NEC. NEC saying the length of the branch circuit wiring from the panel to the wall outlet shall be a minimum of 30ft... 2020 NEC 242.16. Type 3 SPDs. When I think about it, it makes sense the cord would be exclusive of the SPD as far as the NEC is concerned. UL could care less how long the cord is. I assume when UL did their testing they found 30ft branch circuit wiring was the safe minimum length.
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IOW, the length of the SPD’s cord is irrelevant to the 30’ requirement.
I agree... I just thought that’s why Furman made the 10ft cord captive to add more impedance in the minimum 30ft branch circuit wiring length. An added impedance current limiting fudge factor. (Just curious can the 2400 unit be ordered with a shorter cord. Say 5ft or 6ft?)
I would check with the manufacturer first, before cutting the cord to make it shorter, to see if doing so voids the warranty.
The 30ft minimum distance requirement has to do with the fault current rating of the Type 3 SPD . Any idea what the Furman is rated at?
It may help you to understand that the MOV’s in an SPD’s for the most part deliberately CAUSE shorts (series mode an exception) which is why they must be a certain distance from the panel. This ensures the AIR of the breakers isn’t exceeded when they do short.
These are called parallel mode because the protection devices are in parallel with the load. There are hopefully additional features to help control just how much energy is dissipated in the SPD, such as thermal fuses, etc. but the internet is littered with images of where these failed or caused a fire as they melted the plastic enclosures.
The Furman with SMP won’t cause a short under most surge conditions so no AIR needed. Zerosurge/Brickwall do the same.
define gathered. I would not coil the the remaining 7ft in a neat tight small diameter coil. Imo, a small coil would act as an inductor.
@jea48 I pulled just enough out to plug it in. The coil is crammed between the 2400 & the LPS for my DAC. Not sure what an inductor does, but if I can’t cut it, not sure of a solution. My other PC’s were custom made to length to reduce clutter & interference. It is very populated back there with speaker wires for 9 speakers, interconnects, the other power cords & a LPS. I am actually shocked I am not hearing negative effects from this. Will not spreading it out risk effecting one or more of these? Would I not be hearing negative effects if is an inductor? My system has never sounded better… at least on the digital side… it sounds so good I haven’t been listening to vinyl.
It may help you to understand that the MOV’s in an SPD’s for the most part deliberately CAUSE shorts (series mode an exception) which is why they must be a certain distance from the panel. This ensures the AIC of the breakers isn’t exceeded when they do short.
AIC corrected..
I know how MOVs work.
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which is why they must be a certain distance from the panel. This ensures the AIC of the breakers isn’t exceeded when they do short.
BS. I told you the reason in my previous post.
Think about... A Bolted Line to Line, or Line to EGC fault 1ft from a circuit breaker will trip open the breaker on short circuit protection. Sure in the heck don’t need 30ft. (Where’s your protection of the breaker) Think about it... Bolted... A heck of a lot more flow of amps than any MOV could possibly return to the source.
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The Furman with SMP won’t cause a short under most surge conditions so no AIC needed. Zerosurge/Brickwall do the same.
AIC corrected.
I never said a Type 3 SPD had a AIC, Ampere Interrupting Capacity rating.
jea48 said:
The 30ft minimum distance requirement has to do with the fault current rating of the Type 3 SPD . Any idea what the Furman is rated at?
fault current rating, is not the same as, AIC, Ampere Interrupting Capacity rating.
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but the internet is littered with images of where these failed or caused a fire as they melted the plastic enclosures.
I seen the video. A $10.00 Type 3 SPD plug strip was used for the demonstration.
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2020 NEC 242.16 Type 3 SPDs
Type 3 SPDs shall be permitted to be installed on the load side of branch circuit overcurrent protection up to the equipment served. If included in the manufacturer’s instructions, the Type 3 SPD connection shall be a minimum 10 m (30 ft) of conductor distance from the service or separatelyderived system disconnect.
No mention of MOVs;
No Exception, for Furman, Zerosurge, or Brickwall.
The 30-foot (10-meter) minimum conductor distance requirement for Type 3 Surge Protective Devices (SPDs) from the service or separately derived system disconnect is a safety measure to ensure that the SPD is located beyond the area potentially affected by a surge, which is typically considered to be within 30 feet of the main panel.
Here’s a more detailed explanation:
Purpose of the 30-foot Distance:
The 30-foot distance requirement is based on the idea that a surge, such as a lightning strike, will have the most significant impact on equipment within that immediate vicinity of the main electrical panel.
Type 3 SPD Location:
Type 3 SPDs are designed to protect equipment at the point of utilization, meaning they are installed on the load side of branch-circuit overcurrent protection, but only if the connection is a minimum of 30 feet away from the service or separately derived system disconnect.
Protection Beyond the Main Panel:By placing the Type 3 SPD beyond the 30-foot zone, it’s less likely to be directly affected by the surge, allowing it to function more effectively.
It may help you to understand that the MOV’s in an SPD’s for the most part deliberately CAUSE shorts (series mode an exception) which is why they must be a certain distance from the panel. This ensures the AIR of the breakers isn’t exceeded when they do short.
"It may help you to understand"
I took that as an insult.
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In addition to the conversation not really going anywhere
The conversation is settled. You were wrong.
You proved you were wrong when you introduced series mode SPDs into the conversation.
@jea48- Of course, always follow the rules, but the 30’ requirement AFAIK is to avoid excess current that is too high for the AIR (current interrupt rating) of panel breakers.
I’ve seen this thread happen dozens of times on this website. I always thought that the first part of engineering a component was getting control of the electricity. Isn’t that what happens starting with a fuse and then there’s rectifiers and all kinds of other stuff that steps the power down to where the engineer wants it or wants it changed from AC to DC to operate the rest of the circuitry of the component. If all this is going on I would assume that the manufacturers do it because they can’t control where the components will end up and how bad the power situation is wherever people use them. I think all this stuff is just more stuff to sell people who get bored with their hobby. A couple years back all the rage was these different colored fuses for hundreds of dollars and then crazy $10,000 power cords. Sounds to me like a whole lot of people that got more time than money or is that more money than time I don’t know but the whole thing sounds like a waste. My equipment sounds great wherever I have it
@raysmtb1Not an uncommon perspective. Interesting you don’t believe in power improvements as you have a nice system. You seem to believe in vibration isolation, but not power. I only know that the 2400 without question improved the overall sound of my system. YMMV
@erik_squiresMy new (arrived today) Furman PST-8D & has further cleaned up my system. Not as dramatic as the 2400, but audible.
I assume it was the conditioned and isolated power to the router feeding my Qobuz streaming, but you would know better than me. Got it open box on eBay for just over $100.00. Great addition. Thanks again for your sage advice. I am getting close to end stage… maybe.🤔
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