I'm considering trying out Roon and, despite hours spent on their too-busy website, I'm still not entirely sure what it would do for me. (Trying to get through their "support" section is an exercise in misery all around.)
Here's my clueless question. I currently stream music through a Bryston BDP. I use the Bryston software, "Manic Moose," on my laptop or phone to create playlists, move between digital sources (flash drive, Qobuz, radio), and as a remote control for volume, song choice, etc. The Bryston software isn't at all elegant but it's functional.
So, if I get Roon, would I be doing the same thing from the Roon app on my laptop or phone? Would I be completely bypassing "Manic Moose"? and doing everything on the Roon app, including such things as volume and song selection? I understand that Roon is an effective organizer of music from multiple sources; is it also a "media player?? (I have a traditional two-channel set-up and don't do multiple rooms.) The Manic Moose software is clunky enough that I'd consider swapping it out for Roon, if that's in fact what I would be doing.
And I think that’s the key point here. Some talk about Roon as though it is incredible and god’s gift to music. It’s not. It’s software.
Like all software it comes with bugs and like all software the content, process and UI are very personal things. Some can live with the issues and some cannot. Evangelising helps no-one make an informed decision.
Well done to Roon for spotting the gap in the market but perhaps less well done for not recognising the inevitable shrinking of that gap as manufacturers step into it and for electing to take the traditional route of largely ignoring customer feedback,
Despite protestations to the contrary a user base of 100,000 world wide is very small and shrinking, Assertions to the contrary confuse Roon certification and Ready status with actual users. The numbers of the latter likely do outstrip the number of users and to not very bright people they probably suggest the user base is massive. The reality is no more complex than that of devices which come with Bluetooth. Some manufacturers include it because they think it’s a valuable tool. Others include it because not including it would exclude them from the market space in which they expect to compete. My example would once again include Innuos. Every device they sell works smoothly with Roon. Few Innuos Sense/2.x users will actually be using thar functionality at this point simply because the latter sounds way better. 1,000 sales of a product which Is Roon certified does not equal 1,000 Roon users any more than it indicates 1,000 Bluetooth or Spotify `connect users.
I have no reason to use Roon now. The UI is not especially accessible and the sound quality can’t compete with Sense. However, even if it did I don’t find it’s use of data from AllMusic especially helpful, enlightening or even competent. In the same way Amazon continues to recommend albums to me that I already own, having bought them from… Amazon… the recommendation engine of Roon is basic at best. “Give me less well known and largely mediocre facsimiles of what I already own or have listened to.” For me that’s useless functionality. For others it regains something outstanding. If you enjoy music that you get out of that then brilliant. Each to their own. However, far better to walk into that knowing the reality of it than believing it to be some previously unheralded work of programming genius.
I absolutely stand by my previous assertion re: lifetime membership. There is no software on the planet which will last your lifetime. As several bids to buy Roon have recently been rebuffed and both would have used it to serve only their own product base then it’s a matter of time really. Nevertheless if it represents value to you and you have a lump sum available then go for it.
My take on Roon is that they've developed some features and functions, and combinations thereof, that are unique and it's the best multi-zone music library software available.
That said, it is also very buggy and flakey, and the Roon development team has some very odd takes on what the software should represent. Roon was developed on a multi-platform video game development kit and it has its limitations. This allows Roon to work on many more platforms without dedicated programming for each one, but it also limits what can be done where other software is much more capable.
So, enjoy Roon, and try not to get frustrated when you get in deep and something just doesn't go right, but understand you're not alone.
Thanks for asking. I haven't joined the fray here simply because I know so comparatively little about streaming technologies and equipment.That said, I've had Roon for about a week and I love it! I admit, though, that I may be like a man who has never seen a flower and is overwhelmed by the discovery of a dandelion. Perhaps there are orchids and birds of paradise up ahead....
Like others, I never understood why I should buy something that seems like just a nifty version of what I already own. For a few years now I annually have looked at the Roon website and found it bright and shiny--and not in a good way. So I'm quite surprised by how much I like it. Call me shallow but I love the easy interface that allows me to move easily between internet radio, my stored music files, and Qobuz. (Yes, I KNOW--I could do all this before I got Roon. But it's so much nicer now!)
I can't yet respond to the big question: how does Roon affect sound quality, if at all. There are too many variables in play for me at the moment (in my system but also in my life). That's up ahead.
I have a few quibbles, naturally, though I may just not yet understand all the features. While they talk the "audiophile" game, I wouldn't bet a nickel on their customer support. It looks to me like they put a lot of their energy into marketing some kind of bougie lifestyle. Blah. Still, I will report that I've already been emailing with Andrew at Small Green Computer, researching $$$ ethernet cables, pondering "bridges," and the like. Better and best, I've been listening to music. This may be the honeymoon period but I am enjoying it. (Ask me again in three months....)
@northman do you have outstanding queries about Roon? How have you been finding it since you started your trial? You’ve not posted at all on this second page aside from the above request. Thoughts on the interface? Recommendations “engine” etc?
I feel fortunate in that my initial trial with it left me feeling somewhat under-whelmed by sound and UI but then I was rather over-taken by events and the Innuos Sense app. However, it’s always interesting to get other sensible impressions in case there’s some “must have” that you’ve/I’ve missed.
There has been some dissatisfaction from some older users in relation to 1.8 and an overwhelming sense that Roon are becoming a little Devialet like in their approach to customers in terms of largely disengaging. New users seem less unhappy so I’d be interested to hear where you sit.
I and others have tried engaging them with regard to the UI and accessibility. It seems they will go their own way regardless. That seems to me to carry risks. Although it was suggested earlier that they’re not small I would say that there is some confusion on the matter. The user base world wide is 100,000 or less. That should not be confused with the number of manufacturers who have signed up to certify etc. That potentially provides a false sense of security in terms of things like lifetime membership. Lots of devices come with Spotify or Tidal Connect. Partly because some people use them and partly because manufacturers cannot afford to be perceived to be providing less functionality than others. Much as I love Qobuz I do wonder whether I’d have bought an Innuos if it only had full Qobuz integration. Not everybody with Roon Ready or Certified devices will use Roon and indeed the stats suggest the exact opposite. Indeed Innuos devices are a fine example. All work brilliantly with Roon but most users are dropping it because it can’t now match the SQ via Sense.
Specifically which of my comments do you believe to be ignorant? Lifetime membership has yet to be lifetime for any software ever. Roon won’t be the first. Most people don’t use Roon and the user base can factually be demonstrated to be remarkably small given the numbers of people who stream. 100,000 or so use it but recently they have levelled off as updates have been less than stellar and, as already stated, other manufacturers are producing their own apps which not only suffice but also improve on the sound quality.
As regards my VI, frankly, how dare you. Comment on posts not posters. You criticised @mrcorkyfor comments re: the UI by asserting it as a “paragon of simplicity”. I responded to that by pointing out that actually that UI does not comply with accepted accessibility standards. Ergo, one of the several reasons I don’t use Roon, and this is a comment made by many older users as well as those with a VI, is that whilst it’s a relatively clean UI, it is actually pretty bad design for many users and does not comply with accepted/required standards.. They are also not especially good at listening to user feedback on UI issues. That seems to me to flow quite naturally. Your comment however jars and I find it straightforwardly and intentionally offensive.
@mahughesI'm not an evangelist for anything, I'm simply defending against ignorant remarks about a product that I think is pretty great, and I'm far from alone. These threads are heavily weighted by those in the "pro-Roon" camp, and this is an audiophile forum, so 'nuff said.
Really curious about why you mentioned being visually impaired. Do you practice "organically" working that into conversations? Has absolutely nothing to do with Roon so one can only guess as to why you do that.
@shooter41so how did that lifetime membership of Squeeze work or Limewire or Napster work out? Hey you signed up for the first Office 365 lifetime too. They all look a bargain now.
Far from “falling over themselves” many manufacturers are avoiding it completely especially since Roon thought it wise to launch the Nucleus in direct competition with them. The world wide user base for Roon is around 100,000 so hardly massive but also falling slowly since a few manufacturers produced interfaces that start to complete in the same ball park e.g. Innuos and which comfortably beat it for sound quality.
I don’t see anything in my previous post assuming Roon would remain static. Do point out that quote. I’m visually impaired but even with zooming in I’ll be darned if I can either recall saying it or see why I’ve said it. Oh, I didn’t. Roon evangelists are like all evangelists. Largely beyond rationality. You read what you want to read and believe what you want to believe but…
Going forward they’ve a reasonably competent UI and there aren’t a great many major leaps to be made. The gap between them and other manufacturers is going to close not increase and, again as with Innuos, a lot of people are going to look at it and wonder why they’re paying for something others are giving them for free which is more than good enough. I’ve no price increase to hedge against as Sense does more than enough of what is needed.
Not sure that slagging over others for not liking the interface makes you look any more rational either. The UI does not work for everybody. It’s as simple as that. As someone with a VI for example it falls well below acceptable accessibility standards and cannot be customised in a way which would make it workable for me or others.
@mahugheswhat's "fairly dumb" is your assessment that Roon is small. Manufacturers are falling all over themselves to incorporate Roon into their products because it's very popular (and for good reason) and their customer base wants it. Equally dumb is concluding that Roon will remain static. It will obviously evolve and improve over time and a lifetime membership sees all the improvements with no added cost. It's also a hedge against future price increases.
@mrcorky it's fine if you don't like it, but to say that you found the interface "too busy" is fairly mind blowing. The UI is a paragon of simplicity. The only way it could be made simpler would be to remove a lot of the features that make it unique.
Roon isn't for everybody. I would do the 1 penny 3 month Roon trial membership and see how it catalogs your music and if the interface suits you. I found it far too busy for my tastes. I would personally stick with Manic Moose if not for anything then the name alone.
Roon is comfortably outstripped by Innuos Sense/2 and, although you’d not think so reading any forum about it, the interface is not for everybody. Roon may not feel like it but it’s user base is small and more and more manufacturers will be eventually do as Innuos have done squeezing it further. A lifetime membership is a luxury some can afford but fairly dumb otherwise. Not a lot of software lasts beyond a decade.
I agree with whoever said, "what a great thread!" above. I'm a Roon user/lover too. My only regret is that I did not sign up for the lifetime subscription back when it was less expensive than it is now. Perusing the multiple contrasting opinions here, it is clear that there are as many variables that affect one's need and satisfaction with Roon or any other music player, as there are variables in audio systems themselves. My favorite thing about Roon is the quantity of metadata available and all the linked information for further exploration. I love most having an LP or CD cover in my hand and reading every word in the insert or on the back as I listen. Of course, no audio player really replaces that, but Roon comes closer than anything else I have ever found. It is not perfect - none of them are - but it is my favorite so far. I am a two-channel person only. I am not streaming Tidal or Qobuz. Rather, I am all digital. (Someday I'll add vinyl.) All of my music is ripped to external hard drive in lossless format. I have over 4Tb of music, the majority of it classical (for whoever above said Roon wasn't good for classical music???) I have an M1 Mac Mini that is essentially my "music server." running to my Emotiva DAC (which doubles as a pre-amp.) The MacMini is my Roon core and I have Roon Remote set up on a Macbook Pro, an iPad and on my iPhone. So far, I have never run out of things to explore when listening through Roon!
I held off on streaming fir a long time because I didnt know where to start. Small Green Computer kept coming up and I called and talked to Andrew Gillis who has his own line of music servers / Roon cores and also sells the Sonore rendu products as end points. He had me up and running in just a few days and provided great remote setup. I use Roon / Tidal Masters and have never looked back.
Generally speaking Roon is worthwhile. I like the articles on music and musicians, as well as the arrangement or curation of my library. They do have a lot of software glitches. If you have a big music library that is well organized on your MacBook or whatever I don’t consider Roon to be necessary. All in all, it is something of a luxury, but nice to have.
I like Roon a lot, but there is one PITA issue if you use Tidal. Playlists in Tidal can be imported to Room, BUT not from Room into Tidal. So, if you build Roon playlists & only stream at home where your core server is, all is good. However, I like to stream when driving, where Tidal works, but Roon doesn’t. What that means is if you build playlists in Roon, there's no way to play them when driving that I know of.
You can also buy third party "ROON Nucleus" servers running a dedicated Linux software which are much cheaper and just as good, as the official version.
These servers only use SSD memory so produce no noise and you can add a LPS as well, making this a very high end streamer and DSP engine.
I have found using ethernet cables to send the bits (from the ROON Nucleus) to my DAC was much better than USB. etc and then adding an audiophile network switch ( and LPS) and re clocking brought out further detail.
If you haven't tried ROON it might appear to be unnecessary, but once you have used it for a few weeks and discovered what it can do, you will want to keep it.
Just noting the OP said the music was louder using ROON, i found that reducing the ROON gain into my pre amp improved the SQ.
My interpretation of these results is that a quality dedicated streamer will be far superior to roon
A dedicated streamer is just a stripped down computer in a different box. Roon is like a remote control. Its function is to control what gets played on the streaming devices. I think your issue is elsewhere than Roon, as others have said.
@northman, I started my ROON internet music streaming journey when storing my thousands of records and CD’s anywhere in our tiny townhouse became impractical. I also thought that I’d give the 21st century a try. 😀 So I downloaded the ROON trial onto my MacBook Pro and began listening. OMG what a revelation! Now after almost 2yrs of this damned pandemic, my entire headphone system and our new condo are completely optimized for streaming whatever anybody wants to hear anywhere in the house. I bought a ROON Nucleus because of its super easy plug and play setup, and more importantly because it sounds amazing.
@shooter41Fair enough. I knew that would be a potentially controversial statement and as such I'm hoping to hear some more A B comparisons to broaden the depth of knowledge.
@pwaylandthe statement I take issue with is "My interpretation of these results is that a quality dedicated streamer will be far superior to roon, which is essentially a software attempt at making computer equipment perform high quality audio tasks" and I stand by this as being inaccurate. Your limited test did not give you sufficient information to make a blanket statement like that. I have no doubt, however, that the PS Audio/Zen Stream combo is an excellent one.
@thyname Yes to both, although you have to turn the switch on the back to roon position to allow it to function as an endpoint. @rsf507 Indeed. @shooter41Interesting. I'm not a headphone guy and don't have any knowledge of those setups, but I appreciate your input. I offered my subjective reviews based on my observations. To say it is inaccurate is really not in the spirit of us all reaching our collective goal of enjoying the best sound. My point is entirely focused on the source upstream. PS audio is a roon endpoint, and pretty much state of the art. The NUC Rock build is recommended by roon as the best solution short of the nucleus so go figure.... Most likely the PS audio Perfect Strean Mk II DAC Zen Stream combination is just that much better!
@pwayland, you're reaching an inaccurate conclusion based on a weak link in your setup, and I would assume it's your NUC, though I don't know for sure. A buddy that owns an Auralic Altair and I have done extensive comparison with my setup which is; an M1 Mac Mini (running Roon/Qobuz and virtually nothing else) feeding a Schiit Yggdrasil (less-is-more version) through their proprietary Unison USB interface. Using the same headphones on both setups (Focal Clear Mg, powered by a Schiit Mjolnir 2 amp) reveals that, if anything, my setup sounds slightly more fleshed out and full-bodied. Bass is tight and tuneful. The differences were small, to be sure, but even my buddy admits that my setup gives up nothing. A previous poster correctly pointed out that streamers are indeed computers themselves. Any "magic" that happens is with the way the DAC handles the data it's being fed.
@thyname Thanks for your suggestion. I just tried hooking up the NUC directly to the DAC via usb and it streamed 96Khz 24bit, but same result.... I also tried using the iFi Zen Stream as a bridge for Roon via the dial in the back which has a roon setting. Same deal. Only needed to listen to the same song for a few minutes, it was that stark of a difference. My interpretation of these results is that a quality dedicated streamer will be far superior to roon, which is essentially a software attempt at making computer equipment perform high quality audio tasks, which they really are not engineered to do. I may try a noise filter after the SMPS to power the NUC, but my intuition is that the Zen Stream will still blow it away.....
I recently did an A B test between the following 2 setups: A. Streaming Tidal master tracks through Roon ROCK NUC7 hard wired to ethernet with cat7 cables. The NUC is powered by the stock SMPS. The endpoint is PS Audio Perfect wave Mk II DAC with Bridge II. B. Streaming Tidal Masters from Android app moto z4 via tidal connect over wifi to iFi Zen Stream connected via AudioQuest USB cable to the PS Audio Perfect Wave. The rest of the system includes a highly modified GFA-555 powering Dunlavy SM-1's and a single channel GFA-5500 (modified) powering a Dunlavy SC-S2 sub through active crossover.
The difference was significant. The B system was by far better. The mid bass tighter and more punchy, the highs crystal clear natural and detailed. The soundstage was more defined.
I like Roon and it appeals to the DIY in me, but not sure I need it now... I only stream music, so it would seem the added functionality for many is a big part of it. I realize my Roon Core is in need of a clean power supply and fanless case etc., and I could build an optical lan, but would that be better sound than system B?
I thought I would never use the DSP capabilities of Roon. But then I bought a pair of Sennheiser 800 headphones and learned that smarter people than me have figured out 'convolution filters' to bring the playback frequency response closer to ideal. Roon makes it easy to download these and apply them when playing music through particular headphones. Nice.
Also really like having one program that lets me play music over my home network on any of my various devices/systems scattered through my home.
It’s completely impossible @mapmanto really know whether Roon has any added value to you without trying it. Give it a shot and you will REALLY know. $1 for three months trial, what do you have to lose? OK… maybe a buck 🤦♂️
I second the recommendation to just bite the bullet and buy the lifetime Roon subscription. $699 feels steep but you come out ahead in only 6 years, assuming no more price increases, which is probably a naive assumption. After 6 years it's all gravy. I fell in love with Roon within a couple of hours of playing around with it, then when I added Qobuz it became an absolute no brainer and something I knew I would want to use for years to come. It's also an excellent quality player, at least as good (and usually better) than the best stand-alone app/players available. Couple all this with the extensive, high quality DSP options available and the value is obvious.
If I did not have Logitech and Plex Pass already I might be more inclined to pony up for Roon but frankly in my case I am not seeing a lot of added value.
Great thread ! How does Roon compare to the BluOS app I am using now for Tidal and Qobuz? Do you still have to pay for Tidal and Qobuz in addition to the Roon subscription? Thanks
If you look on the lower left corner of the MM Dashboard you will see a button that says Playback. Its a dropdown and if click it you will see "Roon Ready". Just select that and MM shuts down...
Correction MM does not shutdown. The MPD shutsdowns MM lives as Roons endpoint. Small but important distinction.
Great thread ! How does Roon compare to the BluOS app I am using now for Tidal and Qobuz? Do you still have to pay for Tidal and Qobuz in addition to the Roon subscription? Thanks
Moving to Roon from other music-management applications is a little like moving to a Macintosh (in its early days) from a DOS computer. Like Apple, the Roon engineers have developed a music ecosystem that integrates hardware, software, and data into one more or less seamless environment. It exposes about as much (or as little) detail as the end-user wants to see (metrics, metadata etc) within a user interface that is rather consistent across devices (laptop, smartphone, iPad). One limitation: although it works very well as a multi-room system, it cannot be mobile. You're tethered to one or more Core systems in your house; you cannot take it with you in your car.
One of my favorite features is "Roon radio", which seems to implement a pretty good "more like this" algorithm. It also has DSP capabilities including upsampling and parametric equalization (to boost/attenuate specific frequencies). I have an extension/app to cast a display to an Apple TV; this exposes "now playing" album art and volume/track controls onto a 43" TV screen in my listening room. You can use Roon with Tidal or Qobuz subscriptions, but not with Spotify or Apple Music (although you can pull a library of stored music files into the Roon library).
I’m not sure if I were simply running any various music app, Spotify, Amazon, or whatever, if I would bother with Roon. Don’t get me wrong, I love Roon, but it manages my NAS and the way too many songs it has on it. I can use other software, but Roon is brilliant at linking things together and “learning” how I navigate and my preferences. It does do multi room as well and that is definitely a cool feature. It also has some good DSP functions that can be helpful if you need such things. Worth the free trial right now IMO.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
