A move from Harbeth to... Wilson?

What areas would you like to change or improve upon over your current speakers?

I've always found the Wilsons I've heard over the years to be very forward, "hi-fi" sounding speakers. Conversely, I've found Harbeths to be a very neutral and more accurate presentation of unprocessed vocals and unamplified acoustic instruments (my personal reference point) -- in other words, more natural.  

As such, I'm a little surprised that Harbeth --> Wilson is your flight path. But, speakers are a very personal choice and Wilson certainly has its followers and advocates, so maybe Harbeth was never the best choice for you in the first place. All one can do is listen (ideally in your own home) and then go with the one that best suits you. Forget what impresses anyone else. 

Why don't you move up the Harbeth food chain if you like your current system, but want "more"?  The 40.2 is amazing.

For a room that size there are a lot of options. 
This is of course a very personal thing. I find the Wilsons to be somewhat forward and clinical sounding. The other thing is that the industrial design can be a turnoff for some. I have a lot of wood in my living space and I find the Wilson’s to resemble a mix of school lunchroom garbage can and Transformers robot.

That being said I did hear the Sabrinas played with a very expensive Linn Klimax DSM and Solo amps. Lots of detailed info, but maybe too much depending on your preference?

Your Pass Labs XA30.5 might reduce the hi-fi sound nicely though? I have a XA30.8 with a Linn front end and Spendor D9 speakers and am very happy. 

Move up the Harbeth food chain.  If you really like their sound, moving to Sabrinas may not be the best change.  If you want to try something different, check out the Vienna Acoustics Liszt.

I am a Harbeth 40.2 Anniversary owner and although I have no desire to upgrade, I have always been interested in Wilson's.  Since I have never spent any real time listening to Wilson speakers I really can't say what they sound like in comparison, but the owner of a local audio store, who happens to be blind, once told me that Wilson sounds the best to his ears.  As one might only assume, someone who is blind must know, as they use their eyes to "see" in many ways.  
That said, once I got my 40.2's I really haven't had a single thought to make changes in speakers.  They are so right to my ears, and the path to get to them was long and expensive.  I am sure there are other speakers that I would like as well or more, but would probably have to spend a lot more to achieve this.  The Wilson line generally starts where the Harbeth line ends, even when you buy used.  This has been one major prohibiting factor in even thinking about buying their speakers for me.  I could afford them if I moved some priorities around, but when the Harbeths sound so perfect to me I simply cannot give this option a thought.  
Whatever you do, make sure you can audition them thoroughly before you buy.  And please do share your experiences if you go that route.  I am very curious to know what others learn.  

@soix

"What areas would you like to change or improve upon over your current speakers?"


Since any loudspeaker will have necessary compromises, including the C7s and Sabrina’s (though I imagine quite different ones) that must be the key question here before pulling that trigger.

As said previously, a genuine upgrade over the C7ES-3s as opposed to a mere shuffling of compromises, would be the M40s (“Ye cannae change the laws of physics Jim").

Unless the ’compromise’ that most bothers you is one that ALL Harbeth speakers are afflicted with, that would be the safe route.


[If you’re able to hang on to both the C7 and the Sabrina to compare, and of course, satisfy that pesky itch, then lucky you!]

Sounds like you’re not sure what you’d like to improve upon — “upgrade” is too vague at least for me.  So failing that the obvious safe and perhaps smartest bet is moving up the Harbeth line. I would say that given you like the Harbeth sound I’d suggest looking at Sonus Faber over Wilson — a little more rich or warm/musical and less clinical sounding (relatively) than Wilson while possibly adding better 3D holographic imaging over Harbeth if that would qualify an an upgrade to you. Those are my impressions of the house sound differences anyway, FWIW. Hope this helps, and best of luck.

With that amp I would get a pair of Klipsch Cornwalls. I am not a big Wilson fan. My buddy's Watt/Puppy's have not aged well. His Wilson subwoofer is just a coffee table now. Replaced by two JL Audio units. 
They are extremely overpriced. If you want to spend a lot of money get a pair of Sound Labs 545's. They are perfect for that room. 

Great room size. Great Amp. You really have to listen to the Sabrinas.
The Harbeth you have would go nicely with two REL s/510.
The Sabrinas are very different then the Vintage watt /puppys.
Very transparent and open. If you listen to them you will decide quickly if they work with you.

It’s your system. Go for it if that is what you want.   It’s all good stuff. 

 For investment in that league, would make sense to listen more widely before making the jump. Consider Vandersteen Quatro Wood CT at substantially less cost than Sabrina X. Sound to my ears is more lifelike than Wilsons.

Geoff won’t like this but i had two 60-90 minute demos with the Sasha Daw in Manhattan this past July and found the $37k speakers too dry and clinical to my ears. Although on the plus side great soundstage, imaging and super clean as I could hear every lyric (which is a problem for me as I have asymmetrical hearing loss), it just tired me out. It had no soul to me. Meanwhile I wound up with the Harbeth 40.2 Anniversary and absolutely adore their warmth and natural sounding musicality. Vocals are liquid smooth.

Wow, thanks for the great comments and discussion. In answer to a few queries, I do love the Harbeth "sound" - the natural midrange and overall true timbre. (I'm a musician, and timbre is my #1 concern in any speaker and system.) That said, I have found the Wilsons to be less analytical and clinical that some have suggested, and similarly natural and timbral-accurate. I don't necessarily think they're a complete dichotomy, but perhaps I'll reflect on that a little more.

To address what I don't like about the Harbeths, that would cause an upgrade "itch" to be scratched? It's hard to say - they do from time to time sound a bit "boxy" on big, orchestral stuff. But overall I have no complaints, just... an itch for something different, maybe? Complacency = first world problems! :)

And I think my room is probably a limiting factor for the big Harbeth 40s, though with the overwhelming consensus on those, I may do look at those calculations again. Moving up the Harbeth line does make sense, I just think that's too much speaker for this room, but perhaps it could work? Hmmm...

The Wilsons are an order of magnitude better speakers. They are the lowest distortion, most dynamic and resolving speakers, the most lifelike speakers anywhere near their price. Anyone who thinks they are HiFi sounding has not listened to current models, or has listened in systems with those horrid flat cables, or ones with high silver content, to through the horrific DACs from PS Audio or Mytek. Or simply hasn't heard live music.

Hyberbole
I doubt an order of magnitude separates many different speakers, unlike the pricing.  In case you don't know, an order of magnitude is 10x.

Exaggeration
At that price there will be plenty of other options.  Anyway we all know speakers are a very personal choice.

Silly supposition
And can any member who 'hasn't heard live music' please put up hand, there won't be any.

The above post adds nothing and we can all do without.

I’ve owned the Harbeth C7 and the M30.1. IMO, they both sounded nice but boxy. My favorite Harbeth is the P3ESR. They really do a disappearing act when in a smaller room like yours. You can get a pair at the fraction of the cost of those others that you are looking at. If they don’t work out they are very easy to sell. Here is a video of a guy that agrees with my opinion about the P3ESR!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqFIaiPT_kY
And another!
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=harbeth+p3esr+review&view=detail&mid=5D7EB69CCEBBAAE793...

1+ clearthinker

@yogiboy 

Great links.

No doubt the smaller panels of the P3ESR will help with the disappearing act.

I once read a slightly troubling review of that renowned speaker where the listener got confused as to which speaker was actually playing at the time. 

The other speaker in the room was the M40!

Maybe the ability to sound like a much larger speaker is the P3s best parlour trick, but it did leave me wondering just how big the actual differences might be.

This is not going to be easy for the OP, is it?


@clearthinker,

What a wonderfully refreshing post to read. Thanks!

"Anyone who thinks they are HiFi sounding has not listened to current models..."

I can't tell you how many times I've heard this about several brands of speakers over the years.  Basically, it boils down to "THIS TIME we got it right."  ;-)

I begrudge no one for whatever preferences they have. We all have different priorities concerning what we value when we listen to music. That's fine. It's a big world and there are options for everyone. 

(And, BTW, I do listen to live music regularly -- Powell Symphony Hall, Cathedral Basilica and similar venues these days and years ago spent time in the music industry as a sound engineer before switching careers. I'm confident of my own preferences.)

Great room size. Great Amp. You really have to listen to the Sabrinas.
The Harbeth you have would go nicely with two REL s/510.
The Sabrinas are very different then the Vintage watt /puppys.
Very transparent and open. If you listen to them you will decide quickly if they work with you.

Going from Harbeth to Wilson is an interesting direction.  I will admit my bias against Wilson speakers.  I have listened to many models over the last several years and the last ones were at RMAF in 2019.  I find them too clinical in the top end and also the integration of the midrange and bass just strikes me as unbalanced.  Perhaps if they are really set up well my opinion would change but I have heard them with top notch solid state and tube electronics.  My test is always violin music and the upper frequencies just drive me out of the room.  I settled on Vienna Acoustics Liszt when I was doing my search.  I guess everyone has different priorities that they value.  

I have had one experience with a Wilson speaker, so I am far from an expert, but I will give you my experience.   I would demo the speaker, preferably in your setup, but if not, then at a dealer.  I would not buy them without listening to them first.

This is my experience with the Wilson Watt Puppy.   The dealer was extremely nice and did a tour of the system the Watt Puppies were connected to, showed me how to adjust the Watch Dog subwoofer, pointed at a huge collection of CD's and said, "You can stay as long as you want, if you have questions, come and get me," and then left the demo room.

A friend and I spent the next two hours listening to the speakers and playing around with different adjustments on the Watch Dog.  There was a seat between the two speakers and if you were in that chair, there was the most three dimensional, accurate, pleasant sound I've ever experienced from a music system.  HOWEVER, if you moved left or right, changed seating height the sound stage became flat and no different than fifty other speakers I've heard.

The Watt Puppy speakers were extremely accurate, but also, extremely directional with a very, very small soundstage.  Whether that's the case with the Wilson speakers you're considering is unknown, but you should listen to them very carefully before buying them.

OP: check out the room size here:
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/harbeth-monitor-40-2.25222/

your Harbeth’s have that Rogers, Spendor, Stirling Broadcast (Proac ATC?) BBC monitor lineage and dna.
dare I say an apples and oranges comparison discussion in regards to Wilson?
I would move up to the big box Harbeth 40 as others have suggested and maybe treat yourself to an additional upgrade elsewhere in your system.
you will be after all... saving several thousand delore’s on that automotive paint finish🤗

Haven't heard the Sabrinas, but I'm a bit cautious as they are the latest generation of what started as the Watt/Puppies none of which ever captivated me. Problem is that anything above that in the Wilson line escalated price very significantly. Best to do some auditioning yourself ad think about it.

(FWIW I have loved several models of larger Wilsons and have a pair of Maxx 2 in one of my systems - the Alexx are the modern speaker in that niche today).

I think the Vienna Acoustics with their soft dome tweeter would sound less harsh.  I noticed they had a lot of bass and sounded best when listening to classical.  I did think they sounded great and I think you would get less fatigued listening to them.  I think the Wilson's sounded a bit harsh in the highs.  However, I needed to listen to them for a couple hours to determine what I was hearing.  I thought the Motion 60 Martin Logins sounded great, but when I went back and listened to them for a couple hours the ribbon tweeters seemed a bit harsh.

@yogiboy stated that Harbeths sounded "boxy".
Can you define what boxy means?
My imagination tells me that it would sound like the music was coming from inside of a box, but this does nothing to describe the sound. If the box were a closed box the sound would sound muffled. Am I right?
If the box were open but the source was deep from inside the box the sound would be cavernous, or hollow. Or perhaps, like music coming through a megaphone or horn, which would be harsh or brittle. At least this is what I imagine.
I have had several models of Harbeth speakers over the past 14 years and have never heard them sound boxy in any variation of the term that I can imagine. Thanks for elaborating on this. I am eager to learn.

@snackeyp
To me, boxy means that the sound was ’small’ and you can tell exactly where it’s coming from.  This was my experience in my room with those other Harbeths that I have owned.  In my room the little P3 sounds very similar to a QUAD ESL. I am not putting down the larger Harbeths. They just did not work out for me!

@snackeyp
@yogiboy

Definitely possible tp sound boxy if not set up right. And definitely the 40x’s are not image monsters, but set up right and you will be rewarded with the most musical speaker with the most beautiful tonality that I’ve ever heard.

Other thoughts:

-Open Baffle from Spatial would be a different approach.

-If timbre is your hot button, try Tannoy. The 10" to 15" Dual
concentrics. Nelson Pass voices his amps with a tweaked Tannoy
dual concentric. They are efficient. The Wilsons will need a lot more
power than you currently own.

-The Sonus Faber Suggestion also makes sense to me.

Keep us posted please!

As others have said, it sounds like a strange move. Take it if you want but try to listen to some other speakers also.

If you want a change, maybe try another type of speaker? Like horns, planers or omnidirectional?
MBL 121 might be worth trying. 

W/P 8s (94 dB) are now reasonable and sound great with lower powered amps. Consider them. They sound great with Both my 18w tube amps and my Pass 600.8s. 

@yogiboy Thanks for explaining.  
I think I understand what you mean.  IME, Harbeths are easy to drive but need a certain synergy with the amplifier to sound their best.  I have had a few amps that sounded "small" with my Harbeths in comparison to my current amp (Hegel H590) and a few others.  Of course, proper set-up is also essential.  I think this is true of any speaker, however.  
Happy listening!

Thanks for more comments and thoughts!

I've heard (and had) planars, not interested in going there at this time. Same with open-baffles and "horns" - not my thing. Though "omnis" such as MBL might not be out of the question, that would require some new consideration.

I've heard the Sabrinas numerous times at shows, and a local dealer, where I also recently heard the new Sabrina X. While the new X definitely isn't in the budget, the Sabrina could potentially be, especially on the previously-owned market. An in-home audition prior to purchasing isn't likely an option, but I've rarely had that opportunity, anyway.

As for going from Harbeth to Wilson, I suppose it is a different direction, which is probably the reason for this thread. Again, appreciate the many thoughts so far.

soix3,219 posts11-05-2020 11:27amSounds like you’re not sure what you’d like to improve upon — “upgrade” is too vague at least for me.  So failing that the obvious safe and perhaps smartest bet is moving up the Harbeth line. I would say that given you like the Harbeth sound I’d suggest looking at Sonus Faber over Wilson — a little more rich or warm/musical and less clinical sounding (relatively) than Wilson while possibly adding better 3D holographic imaging over Harbeth if that would qualify an an upgrade to you. Those are my impressions of the house sound differences anyway, FWIW. Hope this helps, and best of luck
Sorry, but I think that the Sonus Faber are very bright. I find it brighter than the Harbeth and the Wilson’s. With his components, he can’t go wrong with the Sabrina’s. The Harbeth upgrades are nice as well. Better bottom end with the Wilson. More control and is a better match with Pass Labs Class A amplifiers. It’s about matching the components with the right speakers. You are heading in the right direction. Stay on course, it will pay off. This is no disrespect to the Sonus Faber brand.

aj523160 posts11-05-2020 6:07pmGeoff won’t like this but i had two 60-90 minute demos with the Sasha Daw in Manhattan this past July and found the $37k speakers too dry and clinical to my ears. Although on the plus side great soundstage, imaging and super clean as I could hear every lyric (which is a problem for me as I have asymmetrical hearing loss), it just tired me out. It had no soul to me. Meanwhile I wound up with the Harbeth 40.2 Anniversary and absolutely adore their warmth and natural sounding musicality. Vocals are liquid smooth

What was your equipment? Is it the same type of equipment you use in your home? As with any speaker (room size, placement, etc.) and components, it makes a huge difference. I have the original Wilson Max 2’s and the equipment I used with the Cary Audio SLP-05 with the Ultimate Upgrade and Tube Rolling, I’ve used on the Monoblock amplifier side, the Cary Audio CAD805 AE Monoblock,  the Chord SPM6000 Monoblock, Audio Research REF250 SE Monoblock, and now McIntosh MC2301 Monoblock. In mentioning this, trust me, it’s all about matching the equipment with the speaker. Listen with your ears as you try to decide with your eyes.

@decathlon1991 was top of the line Audio Research rack and the other was Dan D'agostino momentum line. Is that matching equipment? 

My Harbeth 40.2 are now 5 years old. These speakers are a joy to listen to. Something intangible that is beyond description. I have no thoughts about changing or "upgrading". I can relax and enjoy my music collection.

@layton64
Spot on ! That intangible their users talk about is their tonality.  It has to be experienced in the right setup to understand. 

To address what I don’t like about the Harbeths, that would cause an upgrade "itch" to be scratched? It’s hard to say - they do from time to time sound a bit "boxy" on big, orchestral stuff.

I understand what you mean about the "bit boxy" thing.


I LOVE Harbeth speakers. They are easily in my top favorite speaker lines, for essentially the reasons they have their fans: that rich, organic tonality and even top to bottom balance, clarity without fatigue, etc.I’ve listened to the whole line up, and heard the 40.2s do astonishing things. The Harbeths disappear far more than you’d expect given their old school "boxy" look.


But while they do an excellent disappearing act, that isn’t their strongest characteristic. It’s bettered by other speakers, the modern designs that go for heroic attempts at reducing cabinet noise etc.


I had the big Thiel 3.7 speakers and was looking to see if I could downsize a bit due to some aesthetic / ergonomic issues. I actually bought a pair (used) of Harbeth SuperHL5plus speakers and lived with them for a month or two. They were fantastic in all the ways I’d heard from them before: open, rich, organic, sparkling highs without fatigue, so balanced and controlled from top to bottom, and special with vocals - the way they fleshed out the human voice in such a human way.


However, I found when comparing to my Thiels, which are of the "low cabinet/low coloration" school, the Thiels seemed to do almost everything the Harbeths were doing, but better. They had a rich, full quality - e.g. acoustic guitars had wonderful full sized body - and a similar organic realistic timbre to acoustic instruments and voices. But the sound was just that much more clean and precise and hence realistic. So for instance, playing tracks from the Los Angeles Guitar Quartet, 4 classical guitarists playing at the same time, both speakers had beautiful tone and sound very similar, but compared to the Thiels there was an "extra" bit of tone in the Harbeths, a bit of "hearing the box" added, making for a bit of blur in between the guitars. Where the Thiels seemed to clean up everything around the guitars, for a cleaner more precise and live and realistic presentation.


So I think the Harbeths beat plenty of speakers on their wonderful tonal quality and balance. And I’d take them over the majority of speakers out there that I’ve heard. And their balance of box vibration is so canny that you don’t necessarily notice most of the time and can even add to the richness. But in direct comparison with even more precise speakers, it might make you itch for more (as long as those other speakers can compete well enough in most other areas of tone with the Harbeths).


In the end I sold the Harbeths and kept looking. Still, they were so good with voices they haunt me, and I’d love to have a pair of Harbeths still around to throw in my system.

Does a speaker exist that has the warmth, the musicality and very critically the tonality of Harbeth with no boxy sound and no boomy bass?  If so, sign me up. I will demo it asap. 

@aj523 yes Daedalus Audio. The challenge will be auditioning but very much worth the effort!

One thing to consider... Sabrina’s are a relatively easy sell. Try a pair. Speaker choice is absolutely personal. Tons of opinions, stated as fact, doesn’t change that. You obviously want to go a different direction than Harbeth it would seem. Go for it. Another thing to consider,  the Sabrina was one Dave Wilson’s favorites.

I auditioned several models of Daedalus before getting Harbeths.  The Daedali (?) are very good, very even-handed, so to say, but none of them produced the 40.2 magic.

@dodgealum

I’ve only heard great things-- cabinet workmanship supposed to be the very best, and similar to Harbeth, the box is used to maximize the sound the builder is after.

I feel like these boutique speaker builders should make demo pairs and send them around the US to potential customers. I'd pay the shipping to send it to the next person. And if you buy it, you get the shipping as a credit. Anyway that's what I would do. 

Sizing the speaker to the room is very important. I consider the M40s one of the best speakers out there and could easily live with them forever. That said, I would not go up to the M40's in a room that small. You won't get what they are capable of--not even close. I ran my C7s in a room nearly identical. Worked very well. If you want to try something different the Wilson's or the Vandersteen's would be a good choice. Neither are my cup of tea but they will certainly give a very different presentation from the C7. I'm running my Daedalus Apollo's in a room slightly larger than yours and they are making incredible sounds. For your room I would strongly recommend a pair of Daedalus Studio Muse. They are the little twin brother of the Apollo. You will get everything the C7s give you in terms of accurate tone and realism through the mids AND much greater speed, dynamics, inner detail, and frequency extension. Really awesome speakers and just right for a room your size.

Richard Vandersteen's designs are extremely good value and are one of audio's best kept secrets. They are capable of entertaining for extended listening periods with a lovely open and musical performance.

I have not heard any of the Daedalus range but can say with certainty that I would choose Vandersteen over Wilson any day. Wilson to me, like many others, favours detail seemingly above all else. In your face detail, detail that one would not normally hear at a live event. This type of performance is initially impressive but ultimately fatiguing.

good value and are one of audio's best kept secrets.

I'd have to argue that point, If you are even remotely interested in high end audio, Vandersteen is a household name to you.

Oz

Sorry, but I think that the Sonus Faber are very bright.

@decathlon1991 — which SF speakers have you heard? At this level I was implying the Olympica line with my recommendation and not the lower-level Venere or Sonetto lines if that’s what you’re referring to. I’ve never heard anyone categorize the upper-level SF speakers as bright sounding.