I was looking for speakers that would allow me to enjoy classic rock at reasonable volume. NOT at a venue volume. I don’t like loud music at all. Thus something that allows me to have full spectrum sound without having to crank in up. First I tried ProAc 38R, which were nice, but lacked bass at low volumes. Accuphase amp has loudness and tone controls, but they did not quite worked to my satisfaction.
So I ordered a pair of GR Research Bully, assembled. GR typically sells kits, but I am not into finishing cabinets so rather prefer it professionally done. It took about 12 weeks from the order to delivery. I did not buy matching stands and instead ordered custom metal made for me.
I am very satisfied. The bass section is powered - the amp is Rhythmik. It is, effectively, a subwoofer and is very adjustable - crossover frequency 40-120Hz, phase 0-180 and even includes parametric equalizer. This allowed me to adjust amount of bass to the volume level I prefer.
The speakers come with printed measurement chart (in GR Research room). I also performed a number of measurements in my room with UMIK-1 and REW for Windows. I could make frequency response pretty close to linear, but prefer a bump below 100 Hz to compensate for lower listening volumes. Waterfall is also very clean, no ringing.
Associated gear: Denafrips Terminator with DDC, Rega P6 + SoundSmith MC, Pass XP-12, Accuphase E650. The room is 30x16x8 with some acoustic panels and ASC Tube traps.
I've not heard the Bully speakers, so can't comment on them. I did have Danny upgrade the crossover on a pair of vintage Infinity RS Kappa 7s, and in the end they were expensive.
Part of that cost was my choice, Danny offered me a couple of levels of parts upgrades (from a couple of hundred dollars to a little less than $800), and I chose the most expensive.
To me that was worth it, as the Infinitys were my first audiophile speakers; bought new on release......and they sound amazing for what they are. And the crossovers were beautifully built
A couple of things. IMO, The OP tried to do the impossible in the beginning, no passive speaker was going to provide decent bass at low volumes, and IMO the only way to get even bass at low volumes is to get 1 or many powered subwoofers. GR makes very nice speakers, but you could have purchased hundreds of other speakers with a couple of REL subwoofers and achieved what you were looking for. Many other speakers in the past couple of decades have provided powered subwoofers in their speakers, like definitive technology.
Buying a subwoofer is one thing, integrating it correctly is another. The designer (especially if he knows what he’s doing) has additional dofs open in the design phase if he chose to integrate powered subs crossing over as high (a case can be made for it).
I have no idea how some guys claim to have accurately integrated the infamous REL subwoofers in their purist systems that don’t even provide a variable phase input to an user (sounds like a lie to me).
I’ve been watching Danny’s videos for years. I find them mostly entertaining and a little bit educational. I have used some of his No Rez in a subwoofer I built and it worked well.
I didn’t say you need a sub to get good bass. I don’t have subs in my current setup nor did I have subs in my large dedicated audio room. But I had large speakers with 11” woofers and used the Cardas/Jim Smith speaker positioning to get maximum clean bass.
My reply was to the OP was to add subs to get better bass at lower volumes especially in a larger room. No matter what size of speaker you have, the lower the volume, you won’t have the volume of air to get bass. This also is true in a smaller room because you can’t turn the volume up to get the woofers moving.
In my new smaller room, I went down in woofer size (multiple smaller woofers) and now at lower volumes, I get great clean bass. My larger speakers with my larger woofers over powered my room, even with thousands of $$$ of room treatments.
@p05129 - somewhat true :-) Except it is also possible with Dirac (my HT system has full size speakers (Tannoy D700), no sub and has good bass at normal volumes. BUT - I tried to add Dirac capable EQ (MiniDSP SHD) into digital chain (before the DAC) and was not satisfied with the results.
However. GR products are also just well engineered at reasonable prices. For example, no ringing, wide imaging (no need to sit in sweet spot), sensitive passive part, not bright but not 'rolled off' either. Pair of RELs and a pair good speakers would set me back for well over $5600 or so I paid for Bullies. I’d guess $10-15K.
A couple of things. IMO, The OP tried to do the impossible in the beginning, no passive speaker was going to provide decent bass at low volumes, and IMO the only way to get even bass at low volumes is to get 1 or many powered subwoofers. GR makes very nice speakers, but you could have purchased hundreds of other speakers with a couple of REL subwoofers and achieved what you were looking for. Many other speakers in the past couple of decades have provided powered subwoofers in their speakers, like definitive technology.
quickjacks replies were very odd to say the least. If I were quickjack, sell those speakers, and save your money to buy a pair of good speakers. Spending $100 (especially $1,000-$2,000) on crossover upgrades on your speakers is like putting lipstick on a pig. I remember some of those speakers in many years past and they weren’t that good when new. The 2ce’s were ok but I still wouldn’t upgrade them. Current technology is light years ahead of any of the old stuff.
Wish they would use higher end finish and have remote for the sub.
In case you didn't know, you can paint over the duratex finish... a rustic wood or whatever.
Not sure if the sub section includes a line-in which could accept a separate line-out from your amplifier.... If that's the case use this unit and you will have a remote control.
To the OP, @mikhailarkhaving a remote for changing the response "on the fly" for various music genres and volume levels would be icing on the cake. You might want to mention that to GR Research. Maybe they would make it an option one day. Have fun and happy listening!
@moonwatcher- since you can dial sub part, you can add enough bass for YOUR level of listening, compensating for the typical loudness curve loss and room issues. I only wish they would have remote with different presets :-) so I could flip between levels for different recordings or my mood of the day...
Dialing in took a while. I first dialed to my general taste using favorite recordings, then measured using REW software and UMIK-1 mic. Moved speakers around quite a bit and found that they like to be quite close into corners. I didn't need parametric EQ although there is a room mode dip so I may try and compensate later.
Now, imaging is surprisingly wide. I don't have to be in a sweet spot - as compared to, say, ProAc 38R that I also own.
I think $5-6K Bullies sound like many $20K+ speakers. I am pretty happy with value for money. Wish they would use higher end finish and have remote for the sub.
@moonwatcher - if you're at all interested in flat (accurate) frequency response and driver time alignment those JBL are a non-starter. I really do like how the new Klipsches and the JBL Classic look but (to these ears) they sound quite primitive next to a Vandersteen, Rockport (admittedly stupidly expensive) or even the Andrew Jones Mofi products, all of which have near-flat response 200hz - 16khz.
Danny at GR seems very dedicated to flat on-axis response, accurate phase and smooth off-axis response, I really need to try one of his designs before I stop collecting gear.
To the OP, @mikhailarkhow difficult was it to dial in the 12" servo subs in these? What is your opinion on the imaging? I know many say these old school big box speakers don't do as well as the popular skinny towers of today, but I have some old school ADS speakers in my bedroom that image spooky well.
Do they indeed play well at both lower and higher volumes? Thanks.
To @thom_oz, yes, Erin's Audio Corner and Danny at GR Research give us more than just subjective opinions (which can also be good), but it is good to know and have solid information before making a purchase. I keep hoping someone will send Danny or Erin a JBL L100 MK II Classic and see how it performs and if the crossover is up to snuff. It was on my short list but after a bad review of the L82 MK II by a channel who paid for them out of her own pocket, I have reservations, until I see some actual data.
@moonwatcher Between Erin and Danny I think we have two truly useful and VERY accurate sources of analysis for this field of study. I love and follow both channels regularly.
you can always start your post again and just delete this one and repost it if having someone share about GR research infuriates you !
Boy, I have seen some incredibly obtuse people here over the years, but this ranks right up there with any of them. The topic is the GR Research Bully speaker. You completely hijacked HIS thread. He asked you politely to remove your post and start your own thread, which is completely reasonable. I am sure that once your post is removed, you will go on a sniveling tirade about how unfair it is here. Jeez!
Admins need to clean these. Have little to do with my OP.
@quickjack1234 - please remove yours. If you want to post your own, please do. But my thread was on a specific subject, so don't hijack the thread. If you wont remove, I'll report it to admins.
After many decades of owning lots of different commercial speakers (including Magneplanar Tympani IVs, Revel Studios, Duntech Sovereigns), I decided to try building a pair of GR NX-Oticas with Triple Threat subs. I was very impressed with the way they sounded.
When I had the opportunity to build a set of Danny's best design, the Line Force, I jumped at the chance. It ended up taking me close to three years to find enough drivers and have the cabinets made, but the wait was worth it. These speakers are spectacular. I've since also replaced my Triple Threats with quad-driver woofer towers.
I've since also built a pair of NX-Studios and am helping my daughter build a pair of bullies.
While I don't own any GR Research products, I am a fan of Danny's work.
I have helped upgrade several pair of speakers using his upgrade kits, and everyone has been a fairly appreciable improvement.
Some of the Danny haters on YT tend to make comments like; maybe that is just the way the original designers "voiced" the speaker.
Sorry, but no. Large dips and spikes in the frequency response, poor phase relationships at the crossover points, the acoustic centers of the individual drivers being too far apart, etc, are not choices in voicing the speakers. They are poor engineering. Not is poor cabinet bracing, electrolytic caps and iron core inductors.
I've upgraded more speakers over the years than I can remember, and everything Danny does is just good acoustic engineering practices.
I’ve got the NX-Oticas; built them with some skilled help.
I would not trade them for any other speaker I’ve heard and yes, I’ve heard the Magico M9s pushed by ~$750k of top-shelf electronics.
My intro to GR was the double trouble sub kit, which i’ve been using with a variety of speakers over the years....Built out the NX-Studio kit just out of curiosity (not like i had the space or needed another speaker in the house to enrage the spouse), A/B’d it against speakers that costed/costs magnitudes more...the value proposition with these kits is just hard to believe. They tend to scale up really well as the front end electronics get better as well.
Sounds like the OP has a good thing going with his larger room, choice of front-end electronics and the bully.
P.S. Danny’s only sin is continuing to tweak certain speakers from some other brands that some dudes found depressing (continuing to ship them to GR in pursuit of happiness again)...tends to get the salesmen for such depressing speakers up in arms, "How dare you make him happy again???!!!", sez the sales guy.
@snsas we know it applies to all consumer goods...everything is built to a "price point". Manufacturers probably have very good data telling them about how many units they will sell at any price and how raising that price hurts sales. Figure there are "sweet spots" for price vs. sales numbers vs. profit margin for everything, including speakers. It is crazy in a way. Given the labor involved, it can't add more than maybe $100 to $200 or so to use better crossover components or air core inductors, especially since manufacturers could buy in bulk) yet if that raises the selling price above their "target" they won't do it. We as consumers need to do our homework. No, not everyone is very technically minded understanding all the graphs and what they mean, not everyone is an engineer, many are liberal arts majors and such. But even so, it isn't a bad idea to learn some basics. Good luck with your speaker mods.
While I've not heard any of his upgrades or speakers, his analysis of faults spot on. I've been doing my own mods to speakers for decades, so many manufacturers leaving so much on the table, and this to save a few bucks, I don't get it.
So the lesson I have learned is we are NOT done yet w/ our speakers !
we have our speaker systems and they CAN be ( most of them ) be made markedly better / improved w/ mods to the crossover , connectors the box or ?
IF you want to .
There are some clever audio engineers who have done or will do it . some of them you can send them speakers ( ask first ) and they will test them FREE , show you the graphs, tests and they can make a better crossover , etc. -( if they CAN be improved
Some it is not worth trying -hey a few speakers , very few, ARE good to begin w/ !
Others ? it would be like putting lipstick on a pig !
And ? yes maybe you will end up spending so much you could get the / some more expensive "better " speakers . OK
but then THOSE probably are not optimum either ! LOL
I own several good, really good vintage speakers Yamaha , some Vandersteen 2 ce , Allison acoustics AL130 , etc . and as time and finances permit ,( I’m mostly retired on SS ) i will pay the shipping both ways and send them for testing ! some will be left as is some will be fixed , modded !
Seems many / most of the speaker makers cheap out ,cut corners , build to a price point and compromise .
EG
there are two REALLY good re-do’s for the venerable Yamaha NS1000M speakers !
GR research can for next level, upgrade the speakers w/his crossover kit or Troels Gravesen has a crossover upgrade kit for that model Yamaha NS1000M as well ( posted 6 yrs ago )
He did like them and noted an upgrade brings them up to compete with modern loudspeakers,
that’s saying something coming from a loudspeaker designer. & Audio engineer!
well he’s like Danny he’s into making money The upgrades are a LOT $ of money !
they both charge almost $1,000 for the crossover kits ( for 2 speakers )
I thought it was kind of quaint Mr Graves uses felt, or was it wool for material to control resonance.
I pointed out Danny uses something called No rez which is a little more high-tech.( like HUGELY better! ) !
If I had a spare $2,000 I’d buy both kits do one speaker with one do one speaker with the other then A-B test them and then do both / ALL speakers what was best.! ( or which you prefer )
If you get a kit from Mr. Gravesen do a speaker and ( I HOPE ! ) send it to Danny for testing he can test it against one of his maybe LOL.
BTW I REALLY like his ( Mr Gravesen’s ) design for a center channel speaker ! it is impressive ! ( but another topic and NOT vintage heck there were NO center channel back in the day ! )
Hi! Have you sent A Yamaha NS 1000mm to Gr research yet ?
well, you do not need to !
3 months ago he did the NS1000M ( on YouTube ) you may be familiar with it ? if not watch it !
i’m all in favor of upgrading fine classics to 21 st century ! they CAN be better!
I think Danny provides a good service. He generally only "upgrades" speakers sent to him by customers who are unhappy with them in some way. He then evaluates them, and when he can (not always worth it or technically doable) offers a crossover upgrade or even in rare cases, a driver update, to make them sound "better". But GR Research’s bread and butter is DIY. He serves that market well.
He also partners with other speaker manufacturers to help them improve their models.
One thing that seems consistent is that at every price point from $300 to $8000, he finds that of course, "everything is built to a budget for mass manufacturing". They use cheap crossover parts, steel nuts and more in the signal path, and sometimes it looks like they didn’t even bother to do any real engineering on the speaker, i.e. out of phase all over the place between drivers, or a big hole in the response curve, etc.
So, in some cases possible better performance is left on the table. He offers people a way to get the most they can from whatever box he is sent. Sure, he has a bit of an ego, but he generally backs up what he says with before and after measurements.
At the end of the day not everyone has the room needed for something like his largest open baffle with huge servo subs. I bet they sound great in a room that could do them justice. I’m glad to see him look around at what is going on in the industry, (the popularity of vintage looking speakers from Wharfedale, JBL, KLH, and others) and offers his take on them in kit form. The Bully and Brute seem to hit a good spot. He has also recommended completed speakers from a few others.
He shows that consumers need to be more aware and become more knowledgeable before they fork over their hard-earned money.
If people want more speaker reviews with measurements and subjective comments, Erin’s Audio is also a good channel to watch.
Well, I bought and assembled GR Researches NX-Oticas with Double trouble subs and they are Outstanding. Danny did a great job on those. I have heard the Brutes and the Bullies and in my opinion, great for rock. But as for full range, I prefer my Oticas.
look that guy, spent an entire eposide reviewing some speakers without the bass drivers and pointed out the lack of bass the whole time, frequency response curves and all. hey why not listen to them WITH the bass driver(s) connected? maybe theyll measure beatter, einstein.
over the ohone he acknolwedged that the bass briver was missing and also claimed he doesnt review speakers, and last i checked the review os the megneppan minis are stll up. (cant remember if external links are alowed here, so read Flat Panel "Mini" Magnepan Audiophile Speakers!).
he has hisn moments, but hes also unapologetically full of it.
@ozzy62This is very subjective, my material may not be very "audiophile" :-). I would say, sound is clean and transparent. GR spends quite a bit of time on time alignment and off-axis response. The latter is actually very good. As compared to ProAc bullies sound really good even 20 degrees off axis, no need to be exactly in a sweet spot. In overall sound is typical for the type of units they employ - looks like a silk dome tweeter and plastic (?) cone mids. I personally prefer sound or planar tweeters, but I cannot say that Bully is ’forward’ sounding. As compared to my Meze Elite headphones some transparency is obviously lost and bass clarity and definition is not the same. But then again, we are talking room response vs top shelf cans.
It is probably possible to achieve similar results with stand mount speakers and two subs, but it probably will be more expensive for the same sound. What attracted me to GR is attention to engineering details rather than marketing and speaker appearance. I would say these days $5K is a bargain for the sound Bullies provide.
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