50 years of Hip Hop- How Come?

That "music" is utter garbage, sorry.....

Based on the above, one gleans that "music" is simply a term we use to designate "sonic performances and recordings of sonic performances," irrespective of content. (Not counting sheet music, arguably the most important kind of all) .And yet: all would agree that US presidential SOTUs -- sonic performances both heard and recorded -- are NOT music. So the definition lies in the object of entertaining rather than persuading? Well, James Carville says he found the latest SOTU entertaining, nothing more. What is the principal object of "The Times, They Are A-Changin'?" ("Come Senators, Congressmen, please heed the call / don't stand in the doorway, don't block off the hall / for he that gets hurt will be he who has stalled") -- sounds like a SOTU to me.

And so, as Socrates would say, we purport to discuss subjects whose meanings have yet to be determined.

Reggae music has been around longer. But mainstream US has a massive blind spot to what was coming from Jamaica.

Personally i really like Trip Hop, the UK version that combines dub basslines with hip hop vocals and trippy effects, a la Massive Attack, Thievery Corporation, Bonobo, Gorillaz. It's softer and more musical than most US hip hop, which is born out of the vicious culture wars you have, and reflects issues like a racist criminal justice system, mass incarceration and environmental crimes like redlining.

I understand the anger.

+1 @ghasley 

some straight up George Wallace attitudes in this thread! hip hop is just as much "music" as any other genre. I'd bet dollars to donuts that anyone who believes otherwise is also "outraged" by a football player taking a knee while the american national anthem is played, and has nodded his head in agreement to the statement "all lives matter". thankfully, as time marches on, the stodgy, vaguely racist attitudes are becoming less prevalent as each new generation replaces the last. the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice. 

I don’t think of 98% of the genre as music. 
 

it’s also promotes violence and misogyny. 
 

I can think of only 2 or 3 artists from the genre that I like. 
 

To those who think I’m being just like my parents: sometimes something that is not a cigar really is not a cigar. 

It’s interesting to me when the phenomenon of messaging and/or music reasonates with a broad spectrum of society, race become invisible and we have found yet another common link and connection. When all the stars line up and both of these occur simultaneously (messaging AND music) we have an enduring contribution to a culture we can celebrate -- together.

The genre has changed leaps and bounds over the years. you are obviously not listening.  Or maybe you just dont like it.

@unreceivedogma, oh ... please do tell the two or three from thee genre. Of course, under no obligation .... :-)

@hifiguy42 + 1

@dabel

- The Last Poets

- Grandmaster Flash

- Africa Baambata

- Public Enemy

- Notorious B.I.G.

@dabel 

i have seen the first two perform live. Back in the 1970s. 

@unreceivedogma Nice list. The most recent died in 1996, so you're missing out on the last 30 years or so of the genre. 

And while a lot of hip hop indeed promotes and glorifies violence and misogyny, much of it does not. Furthermore, a lot of rock also does so across the spectrum. This isn't a case of "whataboutism"; iI'm simply pointing out that using such a general and vague criterion for disliking something is incredibly myopic.

I mean, many rock artists seem to love singing about under-18 girls in their lyrics. But am I going to write off the entire genre? 

as for the ones who seem to think that not liking "hip hop" or its contents is somehow "racist" or whatever...   Why?  Is the music a race thing?  Actually, even in the little "hip hop" and related "rap" I've heard, I've heard some of the nastiest racial crap and misogynistic crap and anti-social crap on record.  Maybe just maybe it's the content of the character that's disliked, not any particular "race."

@simao

I live in/next to … we call them “depressed areas” these days, a soft phrase in the manner of George Carlin.

The … noise … blasting out of apartment windows and car audio systems on a daily basis is predominantly full of hate, anger, violence, and abuse. I find it to be oppressive. The generalization applies and I stand by it. No, I’m not missing out on anything. I do have one Spank Rock 12” single, “Bootay”, because my step-daughter performed with him for a year. In spite of his lyrics and stage presence, he’s an oddly quiet, shy, retiring gay guy in person.

Yes, there are problems with rock lyrics but they are few and far between. And some artists have removed them from their playlists. The Rolling Stones, for example, do not perform Brown Sugar anymore because African American women object to the lyrics about raping black slave women. As Keith Richards acknowledged “I dunno what the sisters are upset about. It’s supposed to be a song about how horrible slavery is. But whatever”. Mick said “God knows what I was thinking when I wrote that. It’s a mish-mash of every offensive thing. I would never write that today.”

@unreceivedogma 

I must say, your post initially caught me by surprise. Thus, this only reassures my flawed stance ... never judge a book by its cover.

This community likely feels that this creature does not attend Symphony's, quite the contrary. 

@dabel 

Huh? Symphonies? I thought we were talking about hip hop and rap. 
 

theaudioatticvinylsundays.com

@unreceivedogma 

Generally keep my lips sealed on this matter, hip hop and rap. Not the place. I'll let the cat out of the bag, have a arsenal stashed away. 

I've given your site consideration, and in time. Thanks for the correction, "Symphonies"

Old white guys discussing rap and hip hop.

Hilarious.

You do all realize, it was born out of jazz?

It is the urban music of our time and is a reflection of the disenfranchised of large groups of people.

It’s not my thing, but I don’t dismiss is as not being music because of that. There is a lot that I listen to, that very few would define as being music. Mogeus Ellegaard and his contemporary accordion comes to mind. 
 

@jasonbourne52 Why don’t you provide us with a list of what constitutes music, and is valid spending our time listening to? Can’t wait to see what your vast experience, education and taste considers music. 

.

Every genre has a range of expression depending on the artists. Some may be popular, or idiosyncratic. Offhand I think sly stone, one year he owns the airwaves with sunny pop hits. The realities of the culture sent him into recording there’s a riot going on. Hip hop embodies all of this. Some are actually just fun to dance to. The rhythms you get with a human voice can be entertainingly intricate. This rhythmic complexity that can be layered on top of loops, or on drum machines or with other vocalists is endlessly entertaining. I’m a lover of rhythm and groove, lyrically it can be tough, but most often it’s about flow. The act of twisting the expectations of the listener, exactly as Charlie Parker did. Not boring. Many music lovers I respect don’t pay attention to hip hop. I get it. But it’s the genre that has the most creative performers currently. If you’re curious, here’s some favorites. Young thug is a genius. Barter 6 I’ve heard a hundred times and still can’t really tell what he’s saying because he invented the mumble genre that emphasizes surprising vocal twists over lyrical prowess. Earl sweatshirt has the strangest backing tracks, old soul music twisted and off-kilter. It’s the essence of woozy. Drunk, or stoned. His father was a poet so lyrically very surprising. Lil sims is female! That in itself is remarkable but her personally and musical taste is so engaging. If you don’t have time, Tierra Whacks Whack world, every song lasts one minute. And for speed and articulation JID has a stumnning record this year Forever Story that is a real record you listen to from beginning to end. Great sequence of ideas and emotions. My top listen from last year. Even a new favorite Dry Cleaning has roots in hip hop with the rhythmic song speak of the lead vocal over rock guitar and bass. Also Louis Armstrong invented this rhythm forward way of not depending on melody to define your song. And you can dance to it!

This is an entertaining thread. It begs the question, “why are so many fearful of change and lacking an open mind?”. Most opining couldn’t tell us the differences, or lack thereof, between rap and hip-hop, if any.

You want to hear an almost perfect belnding of all of these genres (soul, r&b, jazz, blues, funk, rap, hip-hop) then listen to Robert Glasper’s “Black Radio” albums. His latest “Black Radio III” is brilliant. The musicianship is exceptional. To those who haven’t ever heard someone rap melodically, it exists on this album. To those who swear those creating hip-hop or rap aren’t musicians, this album dispels the stupidity of that myth.

Old, bitter, close-minded critics hate Queen Latifah but love Dana Owens. Strange.

@ghasley I don’t believe fear of change or lack of an open mind is the reason why some don’t like Hip-Hop. By the age of 40(maybe 50?) we know what music genres we like. Assuming most here on Agon have been exposed to a decent amount of Hip-Hop a personal decision has already been made. In a collection of about 3000 recordings(1800 vinyl 1200 cd) about 75 could be considered Hip/Hop. Does having only 2.5% Hip-Hop recordings make me closed minded? I have less Punk/Techno and Current Pop Country in my collection because these genres have very little interest to me. FWIW Lauryn Hill-Miseducation and Alicia Keys-Songs in A Minor are in my top 50 of recordings made in the last 25 years.

I used to consider myself a purist.  Full Album copies, then albums excluding unwanted tracks.  Nowadays individual track playlists are my goto.  Plenty of Tv commercial music is a snippet of some of the best moments of songs.  The sample generation is an extreme of this progression with improv lyrics most fresh.
These movies allowed me to appreciate:
The Get Down series
A Tribe Called Quest documentary
8 Mile

Blondie (Debbie Harry) was one of the first rappers.

Look, hip-hop has been a cultural mouthpiece for decades. It's still the most widespread music genre in the world, along with jazz. Cultural gatekeepers and bigots will deny its value by pointing out the superficial and the extremes while resisting seeing through to the deeper artists. 

The genre has its weaknesses, like all genres. But to deny its musicality and deride it like you're echoing faux news talking points? I mean, to me free form jazz is mindless, atonal wanking. But I'm not going to deny its musical artistry and relevance to many. 

@dayglow i doubt many here have been exposed to a decent hiphop immersion. 

@simao    You could be right. I just assumed the majority of the Audiogon members are highly intelligent and view/listen to music without bias.

It was designed as a weapon, and it has performed its intended purpose exquisitely. It's called "programming" for a reason. Cheers.

OP back into this thread. Perhaps it’s time to move on. I never intended my post to be a debate on the merit or lack of merit of hip hop or for that matter any genre. Even worse to see criticism with racial undertones.

I was trying to point out that, at least to my perception, there has been little music that seems truly new, fresh, and dramatically different in a long time. It seemed like before about 2000, music of a given era was quite different from a time say 10 years before it. Certainly a lot of that can be associated with a transition of instruments, from acoustic, to electric, to digital. I’m waiting for "the next big thing".

yeah well as I was riding in the passenger seat on a three hour drive coming back into L.A. this evening, the driver had on a "hip hop" station... seemed like all the djs could talk about was "blackness" so it ain't us that's projecting race onto anything here, and indeed I'd say quite the opposite

Plus, there were stretches where I couldn't really tell when one track ended and the next one began... so there's that too.  So much for originality and freshness.  More like lowest common denominator.

....I personally do not recall '' Hip Pop '' being around in the late 60's or early 70's. Nope , there are things that are fuzzy from that time for me but do not remember hearing '' that '' music at that time. So, not sure where anyone got 50 years in the making. Please enlighten me......I really don't care about that music but just curious as how that music got to be 50 years old.      

DJ Kool Herc - house parties in the early 70s

@clhs04 - she was not. The song 'Rapture' is a tribute to earlier rappers like Grandmaster Flash; many, many rappers doing it for a long, long time before the Blondie song. 

@mp5viking A brilliant description of rock. Well done. 

I personally do not recall '' Hip Pop '' being around in the late 60's or early 70's...please enlighten me......I really don’t care about that music but just curious as how that music got to be 50 years old.

@garebear I think you are correct.

I have lived near a major US city, all my life, and I did not start hearing Rap, nor Hip-Hop, on our radio stations until the late 80`s or early 90`s. A section for Hip-Hop started appearing in record stores in the late 80`s or early 90`s.

I think Ol School rap can be great 80s stuff beyond that I've not kept up on the genre but have certainly enjoyed rap influences in music from bands/artists such as Galactic, Robert Glasper, Nubya Garcia and others.

And @ghasley a savagely accurate comment thank you for expressing it so well and succinctly.

@simao I couldn't agree more. Good ol' "Tavistock Rock" did its thing very well in its time with the "British Invasion" and puppet master Zappa in the Laurel Canyon.

I bet more than few burned their AARP cards during the Super Bowl halftime show…

@ghasley nice. I was think the same thing  

@jasonbourne52 cool. Please post a vid of you mc'ing with a boombox and a mic. I mean, if it's that easy, any idiot can do it, right?

@ghasley - yes, I especially smiled thinking of all the people who will have gotten bent out of shape by it. I quite enjoyed it, though being unfamiliar with most of her stuff, not as much as I should have, but that's on me. 

Not a fan at all.

But my dislike is based purely on the music itself.

I tend to only like music that has most or all of the following attributes:

Very high levels of musicianship, musical complexity, deep and broad range of emotional and/or intellectual content, sophisticated compositions and arrangements, avoidance of verse>chorus>bridge>repeat song structure.

Hip hop has none of the above. But neither does most pop or country, which I dislike about as much.

Early on, rap was much more political in nature. It was one of the only outlets repressed people had to make their reality known. From that perspective, I can respect it. 

But musically, it sucks, IMO.

@ghasley 

You want to hear an almost perfect belnding of all of these genres (soul, r&b, jazz, blues, funk, rap, hip-hop) then listen to Robert Glasper’s “Black Radio” albums. His latest “Black Radio III” is brilliant. The musicianship is exceptional. To those who haven’t ever heard someone rap melodically, it exists on this album. To those who swear those creating hip-hop or rap aren’t musicians, this album dispels the stupidity of that myth.

But the parts of Glsaper's recordings that display musicianship, is the jazz influenced portions. 

Steve Coleman, Andrew Milne, and others in the M-Base subgenre of jazz have been utilizing rap vocals for decades. Yet, they are not hip hop or rap recordings.

Steve Coleman is a near genius of contemporary jazz, and I own almost all of his 20+ recordings. Quite a few have hip hop type vocals, yet, I would argue that none of them are hip hop.

Old white guys discussing rap and hip hop.

Hilarious.

What’s the problem with that?

Just because I am white, does not mean I can not criticize music based on the things I don’t like about it, musically. I dislike country about as much as rap and hip hop.

You do all realize, it was born out of jazz?

So what? Doesn’t make it any where near as good. That is what is known as a ’genetic fallacy’.

By the way, I have a large collection of jazz, from the late 50's up through the contemporary era. You do understand that a very high percentage is made by black musicians, right? 

So, when this 'old white guy' discusses rap and hip hop, I am a racist. But when I discuss jazz, I am not? Please explain how that works.

It is the urban music of our time and is a reflection of the disenfranchised of large groups of people.

I can completely respect it for that aspect. Some of the early, more politically oriented rap had a lot of truth in it. I have zero problems with that aspect.

@ghasley 

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to adjust the eyeholes on their hood and see this thread…..

I wonder how many people on this thread who don't like rap or hip hop, love jazz?

Do believe those of us who dislike hip hop, but love jazz, put our 'hoods on' to disparage hip hop, then take them off when we listen to jazz?

Please...

There are not hard trends like in the past because there is not such limited sources to hear new music. If you look in the old days about how we became aware of non-live music, the channel were limited - radio mostly, then TV. They controlled the content that was pushed. Now there are hundreds of sources of music and even millions of songs in streaming format that WE or I get to pick myself, not the radio DJ or the late night show, or SNL. IMO, there is more amazing music available now then ever from the older stuff to new non-radio bands that I can access. It is an amazing time to be a music listener (same with TV shows, documentaries, and movies if that is your thing - all in 4K - WOW), and that is just from the content side - the hardware is amazing and sound wonderful, even at an average price point.

@simonmoon

 

@ghasley

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to adjust the eyeholes on their hood and see this thread…..

 

I wonder how many people on this thread who don’t like rap or hip hop, love jazz?

Do believe those of us who dislike hip hop, but love jazz, put our ’hoods on’ to disparage hip hop, then take them off when we listen to jazz?

Please...

Simon, you have to admit that there were a few poorly disguised bigoted posts prior to my above post. My post obviously wasn’t directed at you...please

“ sympathy for the devil “….. omg the horror….

“ Mother’s LiL helper “

“ and he walked on down the hall, paid a visit to… “