$30K DAC in a $70K system - wise or ridiculous?

In my opinion a very sensible idea -- I subscribe to the "source first" system building philosophy and have a third of the cost of my system in sources, and only 10% for the speakers -- if your speakers work for you in your room then upgrading the source will only make them sound better

I don't think it's way out of line. It sounds less ridiculous when you say that it's a $30K DAC in a $95-100K system, which is what the full system would be once it's in correct?


When I go for upgrades, I generally try to identify the weakest link, and then upgrade it to the point where it's one of the strongest links. That allows it to stay through other upgrades (assuming I have more coming). From that perspective, it seems like this makes sense as well. It's more money then I have to put into a system, but I think it holds up in principle. 

I first put my money into my speakers and build from there. Second are my amps and then my source. $30k for a DAC IMO is a little overkill but like all audio it is a personal decision. Now if I could get a $30k DAC for under $10K used that's a different story. Good luck.

cantorgale -
With $12k speakers, $1k subs, and a $700 CD surely you  can think of better ways to spend $30k.

It’s only wise if, after direct comparison to your dac in your system, it increases your enjoyment of music to the point where you think the 30k was well (and responsibly) spent. Only you can answer that question. BTW, there is a demo Pacifica up now for $20k. There are also several other Lampis up for sale at good prices. They may be a wiser choice, IMO.

Revrob knows of what he speaks. Speakers hands down determine the overall presentation of a system (that and a good room). So yeah, 30G on a DAC in a 70G system is folly. 30G on speakers? I can get behind that.

I appreciate the answers and different points of view.  Thank you all for your input. 

Just to follow up. I looked up your speakers, nice. If it was me I spent the money on a upgrading to a pair of speakers where I don't need any subs, upgrade my CD player, a good DAC and add some vinyl - turntable / preamp for that $30k.

I thinking if you are going to invest just $30k just into a DAC why not put it into upgrading your entire system. Sell your current gear plus the $30k and you would have a KILLER system. IMHO. 

utterly ridiculous IMO, considering you told us about your gear but NOTHING about the room in which it resides.

if I had a nickel for every six figure system in a fifty cent room, hopefully yours is not one of them !

Seriously, unless your room is truly optimized for your speakers why would you even think of spending 30k on a DAC ???

I can only concur....

The "Linn Sondek" principle is pretty applicable - the most important component in your system is the source.

But... it makes little diffenece if the rest of your system is insufficient to take the signal it receives from that source and reproduce it as its presented by the source.

That said... the sound quality you hear is not always in proportion to the price of your system components - not even close. You can find a lot of components at a fraction of the price of the most expensive compenents that sound virtually as good, or better, than the "high priced spread."

And... most of those "giant killers" are typically produced by small, boutique shops, or smaller manufacturers that market directly to the consumer, of which there are many. And... some... are even kits, such as the Linkwitz Orion, or LX521, speakers which properly supported by the rest of the system can produce a sound that rivals any speaker available.

Another such component is the Schitt Yggdrasil DAC, which litteraly rivals any DAC made, at a fraction of the price.

These are just a couple of the "giant killer" components out there that allow the "average joe" to enjoy the sound equivalent to that produced by many "mega-buck" systems.

I have done this--Source first.  My Dac is a majority of my system.  Its superb.  But my Amp and speakers are 35 years old.  I have no regrets--its fabulous:  Roon>Unity Core>Meridian Ultra Dac>Krell KSA 80B>Apogee Scintilla One Ohms.  Audition your new choice to make sure its what you want.  

Imo 30k for a dac is a giant waste of money. There is remarkable equipment for a quarter that price. There is probably an 800 dollar one that sounds the same to your system. If i were to throw that money away i would save a life or give it to family. 

The Pacific is fabulous. I’d recommend going with the single ended version for ease of tube rolling. Happy to discuss any questions you may have - just shoot me a DM.

- Colin

LampizatOr dealer
https://gestalt.audio

cantorgale
Nice system. Tell me more about your modded Rotel 1072 CDP.
Happy Listening!

Before you go spending $30,000 on a dac which in my opinion is a big rip off go listen to the wyred for sound 10th anniversary. they give you a 30-day trial to try it out and if you don't like it you can send it back for a full refund. This is the most analog sounding DAC that I've ever had in my system. I put it up against the $15,000 Sim audio DAC and the 10th anniversary left it in the dust. Go read the reviews on it on their site I think you'll be impressed.

Sorry I forgot to tell you what my system is. I have a SIM audio p8 W8 esoteric p10 transport wired for sound 10th anniversary dac monitor audio Platinum 200 ll. My interconnects are all Harmonic Technology OCC single Crystal their top-of-the-line magic lll. Speaker wire is Harmonic Technology pro9 reference SE.

In my opinion a very sensible idea -- I subscribe to the "source first" system building philosophy and have a third of the cost of my system in sources, and only 10% for the speakers -- if your speakers work for you in your room then upgrading the source will only make them sound better

@folkfreak   Are you saying you consider the DAC as part of the 'source' for digital systems? Can you explain further?

I'm curious because I've inquired about the 'relative' importance of a DAC vs a Streaming Source in another thread. Thank you.

the Pacific dac is Excellent , personally buy a golden gate with discounts around $16k, for sure buy their final touch Audio usb,
interconnects, and power cord under $$3500 maybe upgrade a couple tubes and you have a killer front end .
i have compared these cables . Trust me I have owned a Audiostore and heard many $$ cables these are a bargain and a Very natural complement these are used by the Lampizator distributor , you can get a good package deal if you haggle a bit.

Spending on the source is good, but for that amount you could have a DCS Rossini, a world above what you are considering.

@jafant I had John Hillig and Musical Concepts mod my Hafler DH220 amp and DH110 pre. They were so amazing, that I sent him the Rotel. I don't have the Rotel (or Haflers) and can't find invoices. But I don't think it was more than $200. John is brilliant. 

@mtdining  I'm curious about your comparative comment about Pacific vs. Rossini.  Have you had both in your system for comparison?

@david_ten as I don't currently use streaming in my system I'm not best positioned to comment. To me my CD player system (five boxes) is a source.

I guess my only observation would be that were I to add a streaming solution it might be from Taiko Audio (I use other of their products) -- and their streamers don’t run cheap but the impact they add seems substantial (pace Mike Lavigne for example)

Your file player should blow away your CD player, if it doesn't, start there. 

ide audition it against dacs from  mbs and dcs .if it sounds better get it.

@folkfreak   Thank you for the additional clarification. And the recommendation to reach out to Mike regarding the Taiko Extreme.

Ask the LampizatOr dealer who posted earlier to send you a Pacific to try in your system and let you decide if its worth the $30K price tag. Spending that sort of cash on anything sight unseen/unheard is not a smart move. 

Save on the DAC and exchange the Anti-mode for a Trinnov.

Bottom line, it is your money.  Would I spend $30K on a DAC?  Not only no...but "hell f**king no".  In my opinion the price exceeds the return on what our normal human hearing can process.  I'd rather spend far less on a DAC if I needed it, and if I still wanted to throw money around I would give it to a local food bank or adopt a few families and give them one of the best Christmas Times they have ever had.  Just my opinion.  But again, I am all for Capitalism and wealth accumulation.  It's your money, do with it what you wish and Carpe Diem!

In my opinion the price exceeds the return on what our normal human hearing can process.

Please explain. Thanks.

As you already have a PS Audio pre-amp/monoblocks, why not try their Directream DAC?

All, again many thanks for the many suggestions.  A few observations: First, let it be stated that with all the problems in the world, it is certain that spending even $500 on something like a DAC could be better spent in the service of humanity. :) And for the record, I am quite comfortable with my personal level of charitable giving. Half in jest, y'all.

Also, I misstated the DAC price - it's $20K, not $30K. But I think all the comments still stand.

I'm always amazed in these discussions how many well-argued positions there are on both sides. So I guess it comes down to ones own taste and ears.

I had been deeply impressed with its full bodied sound when I auditioned Pacific Dac May this year.

But since I am using Tube integrated amp, I had opted for Chord Dave and Mscaler.


I agree with most people that speaker shall be most important components in Audio system.

I had been using Lansche 4.1 speaker since 2007 which I had paid 50K$ for new one.

Some audiophile tends to keep changing the components every year or so.

But I am a music lover staying away from too frequent changing of components.


I had used Emmlab Dac 2 from 2010(new price was 9k$) to 2018 which I still keep it as reserve.

You may go ahead with Pacific Dac and use it 5 years or longer.

After changing to Pacific Dac, your weak link will your speaker although Focal Kanta 3 is a pretty good one.

Then you may consider upgrading your speaker after 1 or 2 years when you have enough cash reserve.

Just my 2 cents.

Thomas

I recently attended a show where A high end dealer had assembled three systems, which were balanced in his view. 
In the 60K setup the streamer was Innuos Zenith at 4K and the DAC a 5K from Soulution. 
So that was apparently his view. 

Most people here have never heard a DHT product so while everyone has an opinion, to me they are not helpful especially when nobody here said that they have heard this DC and especially not in their own system.  My company builds DHT products and in our comparisons, there is very little out there that can complete.  BUT there is a price to pay for what ever improvement each person hears.

For example, I got a hold of an AudioQuest Niagara AC filter.  It made the sound very clear with great separation between the sound, more decay, deeper sound stage, better tone as AC noise kills tone IMO, sound was very layered but in comparison without the unit, there was more excitement to the sound more music was out of the speaker so less depth and separation.  I did like the excitement but overall the filter made the sound so beautiful, it was dreamy!

Plenty of times with this type of sound, some people lite the excitement more.  I am not sure if they understand the sound or just prefer that sound.

To summary, you have to hear it in your system to see if this dac will please you.  It will probably offer a very musical sound that you have not heard before.  Then you have to decide if $20K is what you prefer.

Also, IMO without these components, you are not hearing the full potential of your speakers so to me, many people feel the need to change speakers.  I have gone into dealers with speakers that I consider excellent and came out saying that the sound was just OK but I have heard them sound much better.  To me that is the impact of the equipment I heard them with.

Happy Listening 

Bigkidz, DHT designs can sound excellent but are they necessarily any better then other designs is up to the product's ultimate design topology, parts selection and synergy.

We have the Manly 300b preamp which is a superb DHT 300b based preamp, the CJ ET 5 and GAT creamed that preamp, now the CJ pieces were double to four times the price, but the GAT was far superior.

As per the Niagra 7000 it was aweful in our reference system compared to the Audio Magic Oracle, on a direct comparision the magic of the system  went right out the window with the AQ, unit, and for your information we have tested most of the big power conditioners and the Audio Magic bested them all. Our other test units, Running Springs, Silver Circle, Audience, Isotek, in the past Synergistic and Shunyata.

As per the dac issue, personally it would be hard for us to recommend such an expensive dac no matter how stunning it sounds as Lampi does not have an upgrade path. 

For a lot less you can get an Aqua Formula which is a 100% modular and upgradable and it is also a NOS dac, but with some very cool features, FPGA, ability to play DSD and high res PCM. 

The new Formula with the revised anallog board is way better than the previous version which had a few sonic issues, the new Formula is really fantastic it may not be a melifourous as the DHT sounding Lampi but the Aqua line is known for musicallity,

Another possiblity trade in the amp, preamp, and get a Vinnie Rossi new DHT 300b hybrid amp/dac combo which has been wowing people at the recent CAP and New York Audio Show.

There are very few $30k ish dac's that we would recommend that unless the company offers 100% modular upgrade ability you will have spent a  lot on a future boat anchor.  

We don't sell MSB but their designs are modular, DCS not upgradable, Aqua 100% modular, these would be products we would look at.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Aqua Hifi Dealers

@audiotroy - my comment wasn't specifically about the DHT DAC designs but that people are making comments who never heard one or probably another DAC in the price category to offer an opinion as to they would not pay that much.  I have heard several people who had DACs that offered upgrade paths.  While a nice option, that means nothing to me if the DAC to start off cannot complete with some of the better sounding DACs to begin with.  I have not heard the Aqua DACs in a few years and they sounded very nice but the higher end price points they were selling for then the DACs where not so special to my ears.

Happy Listening.

@audiotroy 

By "upgrade path" do you also mean software updates/grades, like PS Audio and (I think) Aqua.  

Would you consider dcs as having an upgrade path.  

If you are considering a Lampizator DAC I recommend you start with the Golden Gate 2.  The GG2 is crazy good and the ability to tube roll enables you to dial it in to your musical preferences. As @audioman58 indicated earlier the Final Touch Audio USB cable has great synergy with Lampizator DACs.
While Lampizator does not offer a modular upgrade program, they do offer upgrades to keep your DAC current.  I had my original Golden Gate upgraded with new clocks and power supply changes when they came out and then later had it upgraded to a GG2.  Eventually I traded the GG2 in and purchased a Pacific. Absolutely no regrets as I’ve moved up the model line. 
I personally don’t believe you need to worry about a GG2 or a Pacific becoming a “boat anchor”. If you are in the US I think Lampizator still provides service in the country so you don’t have to ship it back to Poland for upgrades.

I would probably go for the Focal Scala Utopia Evo and sell the Kanta and then get a somewhat cheaper dac, like $12k.

1.) Sell your PS Audio BHK; (+~3500 in your pocket)
2.) Get an MSB Discrete DAC with USB module and extra power supply (~12K)
3.) Keep your Kanta 3;
4.) Enjoy


I owned a PS Audio BHK for a bit; Tube rolled, etc...ultimately did not last too long in my system;
I have the MSB Discrete dac that replaced a PS Audio DirectStream DAC. The MSB is incredible. Will be a great digital front end with the brighter Kanta tweeter;

With the Lampizator volume option you eliminate the need for your BHK pre-amp so I think it's a great upward move. Good luck! 

A few years back I made exactly this move. Put a $25k DAC (TotalDAC) in $60k system (Luxman & Vivid). Because the DAC was precisely to my taste and beat out several other $20-$30 DACs, it was the most unregrettable move I ever made. In fact it’s the only piece I still have from that setup and has survived 2 full overhauls. So my recommendation is that if the Lampi makes music exactly how you always imagined your system would sound, go for it. If you have any doubts it’s an endgame sound, it’s too expensive a mistake. A piece at that price is only justifiable if it’s an anchor to your system.

From: AudioStream web magazine 

❝This ability to present the 3D-image of a recorded vocalist like Sinatra in a startlingly realistic spatial and timbral manner was one of many initial sonic impressions of the LampizatOr Pacific Balanced DAC that, like harshly-lit craters on the lunar surface when viewed at night from Earth, stood out in bold relief to me compared to other DACs I am familiar with❞

https://hivelighter.com/published/e88969a5-cee7-4968-8123-f28ee9362635/index.html

IMHO, it is all about system match, meaning your core gears (including cables) have to be in the same level of performance capabilities. Honestly I felt the $25k DAC is too much an overkill to your other setups. I would match the Pacifica DAC with some top notch cd transport like Esoteric P-0s and top range digital cable. Just my two cents here. 

joshfilm

Totaldac is beeig destroyed on asr for mesuring poorly compared to 300$ dacs and having less build quality than the average diy product...

If you like the sound of your 25k Totaldac, that is fine. But please don’t tell us it is a good value in the audiophile world...it is very far from being that... I would not call it a good value even in a 300k system...

I have a feeling those saying hell no way in hell is a DAC worth 30K haven't lived with one in their system.  If you can't afford it then so be it.  I have been in audio for 20 years and have only gone to about 10K on a CD player or DAC.  I recently got my hands on the DCS Rossini DAC and clock.  I hate to say it but you guys don't know what you are missing.  Don't knock it till you try it.  I have done hundreds of upgrades, speakers, amps, cables you name it.  This thing rocked my world.  

If the OP really has a $70k system and is on HERE seeking input on $30k DACs, then he really deserves the uncertainty of an internet-based purchase decision.

will never begrudge anyone with the means to buy such folly, but will throw a dart here and there at those who have the means but lack the IQ to know what they seek.

$5k on a DAC should do it, mate....that’s MY guess...;-)

One thing I'd recommend you consider would be to snag a really good power regenerator.

When PS Audio released their P15 unit, I upgraded from my then-current P10 model and immediately noticed significant improvements in the bass, the soundstage and the clarity in the mids to highs, on both my PS Audio DirectStream DAC and my Mytek Brooklyn DAC.

As to your idea of spending on improvements nearer to the source, I'm in agreement with that concept.