I've never owned a 300b amp because of the cost of the tubes. I have an El 34 amp, and tube rolling won't break my bank! But really I think that its all about the design of the amp that makes the biggest difference. Some 300B amps will outdo a El34 amp in the areas that your asking about and some EL34 amps will outdo a 300B in those same areas, depends on the design. Do you have some amps in mind? If so someone who owns one might be able to answer better. Good Luck, TISH |
Both tubes (EL34 & 300B) have a pronounced midrange profile but IMO (based on the amps I sell from Art Audio) is that the EL34 has a pronounced mid emphasis and the high's are a bit rolled off compared to say, a KT88. The 300B has a lush, almost addictive midrange with excellent high frequency extension. Bass response will never be as good as with a solid state amp but ultimate bass response will be driven by the quality of the output transformers. 89dB is low for a 300B. Whether it is adequate very much depends on your room. In a smallish room with speakers near the corners, yes. In a larger room. |
But if we just look at the characteristics of the tube itself; which tube has most punch in the bass, or best bass?The EL34 will produce more power which could translate into more bass when driving a less efficient speaker. A 300B amplifier takes more care in matching with the appropriate speaker. |
If speakers were properly matched to the amp, I don't think there is much of a difference in terms of bass performance between and EL34 and 300B. Both will be a bit flabby compared to SS, but neither is much better than the other. The 300B is the better sounding tube overall IMO. What matters most in terms of bass reproduction is the transformers. Great transformers will deliver great (for tubes) bass. Crappy transformers will deliver flabby bass even by tube standards. Given the massive power draws, transformers for SETs are critical. Regarding those specific amps - the 300B delivers a shockingly specific 8.2w while the EL34 delivers 12w. It is no secret that 1W of power is adequate to deliver music at normal listening levels. You need headroom to hit peaks in volumes because music is dynamic and SPLs vary from moment to moment. Average SPLs for quiet listening might be 75dB but you will find that volumes go up dramatically. Get out an SPL meter and you will be surprised to find that peak volume's approach 100dB (especially at low frequencies) all the time. Assuming normal conditions, sitting 8' from your speakers and they are 2-4' from the wall, 8.2w will give you a max output of 96.4 dB. That is really low. 12w will give you 98.1dB. Normal listening will be no problem but you will find that bass will get very flabby with dynamic peaks in volume. For music, I like to target 100dB in peak output when matching an amp in terms of minimum power output. This assumes the amp is well suited to dealing with the speaker impedance. Those speakers really need a minimum 20w amp. If you are curious, this is a useful link where you can do quick SPL calculations. https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html |
6C33c based SETs are really much better than a 300B or EL34 .The typical 300B SET will produce only about 6 watts whereas a 6C33C will produce more like 15 watts and provide around twice as much current.There are very few speakers that can be driven properly by 6 watts .Especially when the amp has no negative feedback and high output impedance which is typical of SETs.That combination is a recipe for a very uneven frequency response.Hence the reputation of SETs for boomy and loose bass.I agree the 300Bs have a beautiful midrange .Which is why I use a 300B preamp-a Supratek Cabernet 300B.That way you get the good things of the 300B without the bad things. |
I would tend to agree that for a more linear presentation, the 6C33 has serious advantages. The best solution if power is a concern, is to move towards a ultralinear or push-pull KT-88 6550 amp. You do sacrifice some midrange intimacy but most else is better. I think that the belief that any amp under 6 watts per channel or so can drive any speaker properly is mistaken. Again in all designs the transformers are critical. |
i honest think it’s more of the designer; how it was built and not the tubes itself. Comparing apples to apples; 300b will for sure sound better in triode compare to el34 but if you are looking for power and low efficiency speakers than el34 would be a better chose. Both are great tubes; it has it’s own strengths and weakness. |
I agree with many comments here but I will say after running 300b's for a few years and having to retubing my amp I wish I gone el84 lol. I have very good transformers in my amp hashimoto's and do not feel I'm missing anything( over other tube verities) in the bottom end or top end, I have efficient speakers though 94db and 99db. I ran the 300b's on those 94db speakers for a couple years made great music but they were limited to lower listening levels so IMO your 89db speaker wont be a great match, doable but not satisfying IMO. also 300b's are getting very pricy compared to el34's I spent $800 this summer on 2 new gold lions, and another $700 on small signal tubes (2x12ax's and 2x6sn's). keep that in mind every couple years buying 300b's gets expensive fast, specially if your pushing them with low efficiency speaker they will go faster. |
@glennewdick The 300B tube
was designed for extremely low maintenance and a very long life. As an example, WE300B are spec'd for 35-40K hours, therefore, making their cost of ownership quite inexpensive when you amortize the initial cost over its expected lifespan. I know many individuals who have ran the same 300B for years, and the tubes still sound and test like new. |
Hmm... After reading your posts maybe I'll should give up the thoughts of a SET amp for the Tannoys and be happy with my EL34 push-pull and my EL84 push-pull. But I really want that EL34 SET and I really like my 89dB Tannoys. It took me long time to find a speaker that I was satisfied with. Sigh! @verdantaudio Thank you very much for the enlightning post. I've been wondering what I need all these "extra" watts for. Now I know:) |
Another thing hit me. What about impedance throughout the whole frequency span? Does a speakers sensitivity tell the whole story? I mean my ATC SCM 19v2 at 85dB is OK with 35w, but the impedance never falls under 6dB. Problem is; I don't know how flat my Tannoys impedance is. I got some measurements, but I don't know how to read them. |
Other option beyond Audion - You could consider a few other options. There are other tubes in the 300B family that can deliver very similar mids with a bit more power. 300BXLS, 520B and the 320B XLS/842 are all very interesting tubes. Examples - KR has a 300B XLS bases SET that is 20w. The KR VA340 is phenomenal but it is $12,500. I could talk to Eunice and see if we could do a Black Friday/Cyber Monday type deal but it wouldn't be more than 10 or 15%. KR Also offers a 40W Push Pull 300B which is $9000, the VA830. Wonderful amp that will drive those speakers unbelievably well. Art Audio offers an 845 or 211 based SET which will get you to 18w. The 845 or 211 has an amazing soundstage. This is my favorite tube and I have a pair of 845 push-pull mono-blocks. The soundstage is deep and wide with shockingly flat frequency extension. It won't have the pronounced mid-range that you get from an EL34 and it is miles from the lush mid-range you would get with a 300B. These tubes require massive amounts of current, and you want to only purchase from very trustworthy manufacturers. On-sale, Art Audio's are ~$8500 as an integrated. The 520B based SETs are 2x that. Line Magnetic has an 845IA SET which is 22w and I think the price is in the $4500 or $5000 price range. People rave about this amp and it has a very appealing price point but again, 845 based tubes rather than 300B. The tube compliment is pricey as they use 300Bs in the driver stage. Opera-Consonance makes a few amps that are interesting. The Reference5.5 MKII Integrated amplifier is 18w as a 300B Push Pull. It is inexpensive....$2K though it is made and china and only comes with a 1 year parts warranty, no labor. Ships with inexpensive PSVane tubes so there is a strong incentive to upgrade. Given the low cost it is not crazy to step up to EML or even KRs. I am sure there are others. These are ones I am thinking of off hand. As a dealer I don't carry Line Magnetic. I can talk to Eunice about KR for you to try and get closer to your price range with with Audion but I am a KR Tube re-seller and don't carry there amps officially. It would be at KRs discretion. I could also refer your to one or their re-sellers. I am talking to opera-consonance about becoming a dealer. At this time there isn't a re-seller in the US so I am pretty sure they will sell to me. I am the importer for Art Audio so I have complete control over that line. |
I'm really a sucker for the EL34 midrange, and also 300B when I heard the Audion Silver Night at a dealers. Actually I wished that the Audion EL34 should be the perfect choise for my Tannoys. Rolling 300B:s are just too expensive and I have a few EL34:s already. I just wanna be sure that the differences in the bass wouldn't be too big.Interesting suggestions, but a little expencive for me and I don't live in the US. I live in Sweden, in Europe. Thanks anyway. |
I understand completely. When you hear something that you love, you want nothing else. Also get that everything in Europe is more due to VAT. I couldn't find an impedance measure on those speakers either but generally speaking, Tannoy's are generally pretty tube friendly and I know they are brilliant with the Art Audio amps. This is interesting though, I just did the calcs for your reference ATCs. If the ATCs are 85dB and receiving 35w of power and this was plenty for your needs, that puts your peak output at 98.7dB in normal listening conditions. Listening position 2.5 meters from the speakers and the speakers are near the wall (~1M) but not in the corners. In comparison, the Audion EL34 SET is 12w into a speaker with an 89dB SPL, it is 98.1 dB of output. It is a touch low compared to ideal scenarios but .6dB in output is not a lot. I was just running a speaker with an 83dB SPL at an audio show with a 45w amp. I could still hit reference levels and it did sound good. Now, don't get me wrong, I was at close to max volume and my speakers were near the corners of the room which helps enhance the sound. But it would get loud in a 4 meter by 7 meter room. Way above normal listening levels. What does the return policy look like on the Audion? If you really like it...might be worth rolling the dice. Have you heard it driving your speakers? I would say with confidence 8w is not enough, but 12w is close. Do you mind having the volume nob turned up above 50% most of the time you are listening? There may be moments that you won't love, but 99% of the time you should be good. |
I tought my Tannoy Legacy Eaton at 89dB sensivity would be too hard for the 300B amp to drive@simna And you were correct. In reality a Push-Pull EL-34 based amp will be barely enough power in most rooms if this efficiency is correct! SETs are simply out of the question unless your room is the size of a large closet. Something to keep in mind about most SETs: unless they employ feedback (and most don't) the distortion starts to take off once you reach about 20-25% of full power, so if you really want to hear what the amp has to offer (unmeasurable low distortion at low power levels, good for 'inner detail') then you need a loudspeaker with enough efficiency to allow that to happen. A 300b-based SET will thus need a loudspeaker of about 103dB or so in an average sized room. European rooms on average tend to be smaller than American listening rooms, so you might get away with an SET if your room is really small enough. |
My listening room is rather small, 4.48x3.96 meters and the hight is 2.62 meters wihch is aprox. 14.7x13 feet and 8.6 feet high. I'm sitting aprox. 2.5 meters (8 feet) from the speakers which is placed 40-50 cm (1.3-1.6 inches), toed in, from the wall. I can't test the amps with my speakers because there's no dealer selling either the more expensive Tannoys or the Audion amps in Sweden. The two Audion amps the dealer had were trade-in. The Silver Night should the dealer keep for himself and the EL34 was already promised to another customer. And this more than a month ago, so they will not even be in the shop by now. So if I wanna buy Audion I have to buy it from abroad. From Denmark or directly from Audion in France. Return policy? Don't think so. |
The Chinese looked at what westerners were willing to pay for vacuum tubes, therefore, they put lipstick on a pig, used names of historic brands like Western Electric and call them replicas, put them in fancy presentation boxes and coated the internal and change the shape of the glass....and charged a premium price. Clearing targeting the North American market. The tubes sound okay for new production, but can be bettered in most cases by NOS / OS tubes. |
Look at a 300B + 845 or 805 tubes amp. You can have the 300B sweet midrange and glorious 3D image with great bass and dynamics (if you dont match it with extremely difficult to drive speakers). I have a Line Magnetic LM-508IA integrated with 300B and 48W per channel and it blew away a VERY nice class D amp I still have (in a box), even in fields where the class D amp should be better like dinamics and detail. Not to mention the much sweeter middle frequencies. My speakers are 90 Db sensitive and 6 ohm of impedance, with minimum of 4 ohm and the LM508 drives them with incredible authority. I've had a cheaper EL34 push pull integrated, but the LM508 is completely on another league. Its not cheap, but an incredible amp. |
Something else to mention. At low volume levels I believe it could be more important that your speakers are good at that volume. Not all are, some need medium volume levels to start sounding alive. My very best listening setions are at night, with low volume levels (everyone is sleeping). The AC current is so clean that I cant believe the sound of my system. Incredibly engaging. |
Hello @simna My speakers are the Q Acoustics Concept 500 floorstanders. I've been told by a couple of dealers who sell them that they think the C500 are the best you can get at that price range and even for considerably more money. I know its about personal taste, but both dealers sell a LOT of brands and they have tried and sell many different speakers from every price range. I would check reviews on the Line Magnetic LM-518IA, the smaller brother of the LM-508IA (wich I have). Some reviewers like Tim Smith from Wall of Sound and Herb Reichert from Stereophile, not to mention some forums on the web, rave about this 300B/845 integrated amp (the LM-518). Tim made it his reference amp, over many he had auditioned. On the other hand, everyone who has heard both amps, the LM-518IA and LM-508, prefered the latest for being more dynamic. Thats why I bought it and its one incredible integrated that you can later also use it as power amp adding a good preamp and taking it to another level. I have to admit, 300B and 845/805 tubes are considerably more expensive than EL34, but they also sound better. |
Its fair to mention that when I mean speakers coming alive, I mean balanced, dinamic and transparent at low volumes. You wont get your sofa vibrating like a thunder, but you will hear a beatiful presentación at low volumes. It also important to repeat what Jim Smith, a well known expert in audio and the writter of the book "Get better sound", wich I recomend: "I have never heard ANY system - no matter how great, no matter how expensive, no matter how deep the main speakers are claimed to reach, that did not benefit from a properly integrated pair of subs". A nice pair of subs are A MUST on a good stereo system. |
You have got some great answers but not all that I would completely agree with. If you really love your 89bd speakers then you have to find the right amp for the job. Ralph is 100% right a 300b amp needs 103 - 104 db sensitive speaker to really perform. In a smaller room also. So if you are going to keep your Tannoys match it with a much more powerful amp. |
EL34 is not good, IMO, idea for audiophill listening, it is more for guitar amps with more sharp sound, that people senses like detail. I had SE EL34 and SE 300B, and 300 B is better variant with more wide scene. If You use instead SE output transformer PP transf. with one shoulder for 300B sounding and second shoulder for compensating idle current, bass will be max! Saturation, that is main enemy for sounding and bass,... will be zero! Now I have the same construction with EL11 Telefunken and sound is amazing with small PP transformer. |
Maybe I have to look at another Tannoy speaker which is more sensitive. I suppose the bigger brother Cheviot (at 91dB) will sound very much like my Eatons. Then there are the Prestige series Turnberry GR (at 93dB), but I have not found anyone who have compared Turnberry with Eaton or Cheviot, so I don't if they have the same "house sound". Or maybe I, as bobheinatz says, use a more powerful amp. I already have an old Tube Technology Unisis Signature (that needs a little repairing), EL84, PP, 30-35w and a Line Magnetic LM34IA, EL34, PP, 40w. These are the amps a use whith my Tannoys today. I should never had heard these Audion amps:) @azazello I have a PP EL34 amp today and as I said before I really like the EL34 tube and I can't agree with you that it's not a good tube. Maybe it's a question of taste or maybe it's a question of room, DAC, other components in the amp or... |
Plga just curious which class d amp is blown away by the LM tube amp? My experience has been less than positive with class d. Even super quality high priced class d amps like SPEC tend to get less play time in my setup. Mastersound makes a nice el34 that can be played in triode or UL. You may also like the Leben sound but you will pay for one because there is a lack of distribution or production. |
I really love the match between the Audion Silver Night 300b and my Tannoy Canterbury HE (96 db). Especially voices are beautiful. I never push the Audion to the max, it's just to loud :) Complex music on loud volumes is not the best with the Audion (default JJ tubes) and the Tannoy's. I never experience any lack at bass, the Tannoy Canterbury bass-reflex can be modified with +3DB/0DB/-3DB.My listening room is about 5 meters by 12 meters and heights of 3,5 meter.With the Audion 300b mono blocks you have about 18 Watts. http://www.audion.co.uk/Mono%20blocks/Silver%20night%20300b%20PSE.html |
