Woofer pumping possibly due to tube amp when playing vinyl

I am assuming this problem only shows up when the stylus is on the LP surface.


I would see if you can try out a cartridge that is a bit less compliant and see if that sorts things out. Woofer pumping is a common complaint if the cantilever has too much compliance for the mass of the arm and cartridge together (along with the position of the counterweight, this contributes to a value known as 'effective mass').

The effective mass, along with the compliance of the cantilever, results in a another value known as 'mechanical resonance'. Ideally this should be between 7-12Hz. If below that, woofer pumping can be an issue! You were asking earlier what the chances could be that two turntables have the same problem and the answer is 'quite high' if no attention was paid to this issue. So its worth it to borrow a cartridge that has lower compliance to see if it gets sorted out.

mijostyn

Many amps roll off below 20 Hz so you won’t see woofers pumping.

Not good ones.

Your system is doing exactly what it is supposed to do. Moving the turntable won’t change a thing. Anybody who uses subwoofers aggressively and plays vinyl will need a subsonic filter ...

Oh no, that’s mistaken. Completely.

I don’t use a subwoofer, but I do use a full-range speaker system that is essentially flat in-room to below 20 hZ. It’s awesome. My phono stage, line stage, and bass amplifier (this is a bi-amped system) are all rated to far below 20 hZ. The system can produce bass that you can’t hear but can only feel.

No rumble filter. No woofer pumping. Ever.

The best subsonic filters are digital.

I think the best subsonic filter is no subsonic filter.

Very good advice from @atmasphere.  Many records are available that have tracks for testing both lateral and vertical resonance of an arm/cartridge combination.  Certainly worth measuring if you haven't already.  

Should have mentioned that there is a resonance calculator on the Vinyl Engine site that can be used to estimate resonance based on the effective mass of the tonearm, compliance of the cartridge and the weight of the cartridge/hardware.  No substitute for an actual measurement but it will at least tell you if you should be in the ballpark.

All my carts I have tried fall within the correct EM range. 
Some of the carts are suggested by VPI themselves. 

@ last_lemming, I concur, with mijostyn. It is what i said and strereo5 said in the first two posts. (Subsonic filter.) My turntable has a air platter it sucks the record flat to the platter like a pancake no warps. And i have a (clamp.) With out the subsonic filter, i have the same problem as you do. That is why i said move the table to a different room. When i moved my table to a different room no woofer pumping. I put the table back in my audio room woofer pumping is back. I put the subsonic filter in woofer pumping gone.! I do not use subwoofers. (My subsonic filter is analog.) That is my experience. Hope that helps. Mike :-)

Thanks for your input guys. 
I just tried the mono switch on the preamp and it did somewhat reduce the pumping. About 30% less excursion as a best guess. 
I did relocate to a concrete floor to a completely different part of the room no avail.  

I can also tell you the clamp isn’t the solution. I’ve got the VPI clamp that is dished on the underside and comes with a washer, but unless your clamp goes all the way to the edge of the lead in grooves, It ain’t gonna flatten those slight rises (Bumps) in some records right at the edge  I don’t care if you tighten it down with the force of Superman, it won’t flatten those types. 
A perimeter ring would help but they are pricey and kinda look like a PIA to use. But maybe that’s better than using a subsonic filter. 
If I thought there wouldn’t be a degradation in sound I’d use one. But anything that I’ve ever added to the chain that claims no degradation always does. 

@ last_lemming, I agree the clamp is not the solution. But i did not say it was. That was post #3 that said it was the (clamp.) I said the subsonic filter might help. I do not know if a perimeter ring will work. I do hope you find a solution. Mike. :-)

I got the Kab filter yesterday and ran it through the Loop in/out on my amp.  Woofers stopped pumping and bass cleaned up from sub.   I haven't had a chance to fully demo it but I'm definitely keeping it. You can enjoy your vinyl collection for $180 while you spend the next few months and who knows how much money finding a better solution, and then just sell the Kab filter on e-bay when you do.  

All my carts I have tried fall within the correct EM range.
Some of the carts are suggested by VPI themselves.

This gets tricky- even cartridges suggested by the manufacturer of the arm may not be ideal. This can be because the actual performance of the cartridge (in this case, the compliance value) might actually be considerably different than the spec on paper, the latter of which the manufacturer may have used to make a recommendation without actually having used it.

That is why trying a cartridge with a lower compliance value is a good test of this hypothesis.

One thing I do know is that a deer hide mat is not an issue for the problem. I use one in combination with a center weight and extremely satisfied with results.  I was wondering if the VTA of the cartridge was evaluated or tweaked, I do know a rake greater than 93% can cause audible issues. You have to use a digital microscope to view the position of tip/cantilever to verify.  The manufacturer doesn't always build the stylus to the specifications they advertise. 

@ last_lemming, What cartridge(s) are you using with the Prime?  It's a good chance that someone reading this thread may have the same combination and they can check to see if they are having a similar issue.

I'm with Mr Miller. Clamp it down. I also have the cabinet bolted to a brick wall that my VPI HW MK IV is sitting on.

I have a Velodyne 15" sub with it's pwn power supply, and use Altec 604Cs. 

No pumping unless I dial up the sub volume, which is not desirable in any event.

Last_lemming I had the same problem a few years ago. I had the same turntable for years and never had a woofer problem. I then moved and in my new room the woofers started pumping. I remember this problem back in the 70’s and 80’s and thought turntables built today couldn’t possibly have this problem. It’s the room. Some vibration is getting into the turntable to cause the woofer pumping. That’s why, even though you placed the turntable on the concrete floor the turntable was still causing woofer pumping. A concrete floor still gets vibrations from the earth. I tried the same thing. I solved the problem with the Symposium Acoustics Segue ISO turntable platform. They can be bought through Acoustic Sounds. There are two types of these platforms one for lower weight turntables ( I think up to 40lbs) and one for heavier weight turntables ( up to 80 lbs). This will solve your problem. 

If that's what you want, check out no romance's springs under turntable thread. Nobsound will get you almost all of what you get with the big buck stuff for $35.

The carts I have tried. 
Grado Sonata 3 - new
Nagaoka MP500
Nagaoka MP300
Soundsmith Carmen II

And now I tried it with a third TT and cart. A Technics 1200 GR with an AT33sa (MC cart) and the pumping still goes on. And this time the TT was carpet, so no way vibration traveling through the walls or floor. Also, this same turntable and phono pre does NOT cause pumping on my other system. Again, not the TT. 
I also switched in my Parasound JC3+ Phono pre on this system and the pumping still continues. So not the phono pre. 

Also please remember I get the pumping on the lead in track with NO music, so vibration through sound is not the culprit either.  
In fact after 3 turntables with different carts and positions and surfaces within the room it’s defiantly NOT any of the 3 turntables.  
For kicks I plugged in another speaker on the right channel, unplugged the left channel, and moved The speaker all around the room to see if reverberation was the culprit, but nothing changed, The woofer consistently pumped. 
So it’s not the speakers or the sound coming from the speakers causing feedback and pumping. 
I also pugged the whole system into various other electrical outlets In the house just to check if it’s the electricity, that did nothing to help. 
The only thing that appears to be constant is the pumping is worse at the beginning of the record vs the middle. 

No idea if this will help or if you have eliminated these potential causes, but I had a similar issue with my Pioneer and in my case there were multiple things happening. 

The one cause was the turntable being too close to the magnetic fields of my open baffle subs.  Moving the turntable helped.

The other cause (which is less likely in your case) was that the potentiometer (dial) used to adjust the speed had dirty contact issues which caused the direct drive to "flutter" for the lack of a better word. You could see the speed changes on the strobe. The magnetic fluctuations as it kept trying to adjust the speed were picked up by my MC cartridge making the bass pump. A dose of de-oxit sorted that out.

In either case and EMF meter could help determine if a magnetic field throughout your home is the source.

As has been said before the KAB rumble filter will fix it without any sound quality loss. I added between 2nd pre out and subs so no effect on highs/mids and the pumping stopped. Bass is actually better and more defined compared to before. 

Despite swapping out turntable/cart/phono stage, your constant factors here are: your rack/mounting/floor under the turntable, its location (relative to the speakers too), and your (lack of) clamping over the whole record surface. You could leave everything as-is and attack this with the KAB rumble filter, but other than that these are the variables to play with.

Yes the KAB is an option, but I want it to be my very last, but only after every other variable has been looked at. While I know some say it’s transparent, others have said otherwise.
To be clear the rack has not been constant. Anything but. The TT’s have been on concrete, carpet , rack, on and off maple block, with and without bear claws, different locations in the room, with and without record clamps, and all this tried with three different turntables, two amps, two preamps, three phono amps, different speaker cables, various IC’s, and even different power cables and outlets.  

It’s something with the room. I can’t figure what, but I’ve basically changed all components out, so what’s left is the room, and it’s not room interactions, because I hooked up a speaker with a very long speaker cable and ran the speaker outside the room the equipmentIs in, and it still pumped.  
It’s driving me nuts!  I don’t want to add a KAB to fix a problem that is not caused by the equipment.   

cause of the pumping woofer is rumble and it's inherited to vinyl playback. there is inevitable friction between tip of the stylus and groove walls while playing. additionally if your stylus is worn out it can reach the bottom of the groove and cause more rumble.

on the other hand turntable, tonearm and cartridge quality plays a major role on rumble but unfortunately you can not totally eliminate it. you can only lower it to an acceptable level. people who are saying that there is absolutely no rumble on their turntable are either not aware of the existence of an embedded rumble filter on their phono preamp which can not be turned off or don't have a speaker that can go below 40Hz.

in order to lower rumble to an acceptable level you need a much better turntable and tonearm than the ones you mentioned.

definitely don’t agree with the “need a better table than the ones listed” comment. All 3 of these tables have been in another system with No issues.  

Today I brought my other system in the same room as the offending system. Mind you the other system with same record doesn’t pump the woofers. But in this room, guess what, pumps the woofers. 

And, oh, when I bring the original offending TT and cart to the room with no issues, guess what, NO pumping. 

And don’t forget. I get pumping in the quiet passages in all things I’ve tried. 
So now a total of 3 tone arms, 5 carts, 3 surfaces to place TT on, 3 phono preamps, 3 amps, 3 preamps, 3 different outlets through out the house, 3 sets of speakers, 2 different alignment styles, and untold number of combinations of the above not to mention all manner of alignment adjustment have brought zero differences in the amount of woofer excursion, accept for when the mono switch was thrown, which did lower it about 30% (best guess). 

Here is what I do know. 
1. It happens with any turntable in this room regardless of all things done above to alleviate it. 
2. CDs don’t cause any pumping. 
3. The pumping isn’t caused by speakers resonating the TT, since it happens on quiet passages and at lower volume levels. 

4. regardless of placement In room or surface: concrete, rack or carpet I still get pumping. 
5. None of equipment, including any of three TT’s, amp pump in the other room. 
So what does this mean? Well, there must be some type of EMI or similar coming from something in the walls or in this area of the house interfering with the TT set up. Though the only thing I can think of if the oven/range on the opposite side of the wall.

I might be at the KAB point, unless I can figure out what’s the root cause.  

I understand that you’ve tried two amps, but problem is an incompatibility between your chosen speakers and your chosen amps.  Review the specifications of your components and make sure that the numbers work in theory. If you value your amps more, then purchase a more compatible speaker. If you value your speakers more, then purchase a more compatible amplifier. Either way, problem solved.

Psag,

Thanks. But compatibility isn’t the issue. The same equipment and rack in another room doesn’t cause pumping.  

@ last_lemming, Turn off the oven/range breaker at the panel.  Then play the audio rig. To see if you still have woofer pumping. Mike :-)

if you moved all the equipment to another room and the problem is solved then check AC line and grounding. also check AC polarity on all equipment (remote possibility).

still if you can not find any solution then use subsonic filter
or
if sound quality degradation caused by subsonic filter really matters to you then get better turntable, tonearm, cartridge and phono preamp.

The same equipment and rack in another room doesn’t cause pumping.

Chances are it's placement.  You've got your rack sitting in a corner right behind a speaker.  And is that one of your Rel subs sitting right next to the equipment rack with the lamp on top of it?  Didn't we already go over this.

Big greg

thats not the system that pumps, that one is the one in the “other room”. I don’t have pics in the Woofer pumping room. 

Muteur, 

It’s not about better equipment. My equipment is just fine and many people have the Same gear without any issues. 

I bought a KAB subsonic filter and never looked back. High quality.

last_lemming, as you noted your equipment is fine and doing exactly what it was designed to do. You can either just  stick with digital, get a subwoofer (big drivers move less) with a high pass filter on your speakers or get a subsonic filter. The best subsonic filters are digital and part of a room control system which means you would have to digitize your turntable. You can also just stick a cap of the right size on your speakers, a very low frequency high pass filter. 

But compatibility isn’t the issue. The same equipment and rack in another room doesn’t cause pumping.  

@last_lemming 

This is an important clue! This means its clearly mechanical feedback between the woofers and the turntable.

Last Lemming, Millercarbon is correct; unfortunately, it is the turntables' interaction with the listening space. I had a similar experience with my turntable a few years ago. It was an Oracle Delphi Mk II with an SME V arm and Benz Ruby 2 cartridge. The entire setup was placed on a Target TT-1 wall mount turntable rack, mounted into the studs of an exterior wall. Oracle Audio pioneered the record clamp back in 1981. I installed everything myself, with much help from Wally Malewicz. After an exhaustive trial and error process similar to what you did, and contacting Oracle several times, it was discovered that the SME V requires a different suspension spring configuration than those typically shipped with the standard tune-up kit Oracle sells to keep the Delphi operating to spec. Once the correct springs were placed in the correct suspension towers and properly tuned, ZERO woofer pumping.

The woofer pumping occurs from acoustic feedback, resulting from the turntable suspension not being properly tuned for your combination of tonearm/cartridge, and/or your room’s resonant frequency. I know that the VPI is a "suspensionless" design; however the feet are made of different resins and polymers designed to filter out unwanted frequencies, but just aren’t doing a complete job of it. The Pioneer is even less equipped to do so. I have since upgraded to the Delphi Mk V in African Black granite, which has a platter mat made of vinyl resin concavely ground so that when the record is clamped it does exactly what the design of Millercarbon’s rig does, presses the record so that is is flat across the playing surface. You will NEVER get the same result from a record weight alone. You can achieve a similar result by utilizing a weight AND the peripheral ring clamp on the VPI; they are deigned to be used together. One other thing that may help, get yourself a shelf for the turntable to sit on that is decoupled from, instead of mass loaded to, the environment. Again, note Miller’s setup. The Black Diamond Racing Shelf for the Source is an outstanding device, albeit expensive. I am using a Z-Slab from Zoethecus (unfortuantely defunked) on top of a 1" African Black Granite slab in the TT-1 instead of the stock shelf. Yes, that’s a whopping 105 lb mounted to the wall. The Z-Slab/Oracle Mk V is supported by weight appropriate discs from Grand Prix Audio, and this has resulted in dead silence, from a turntable sitting 4’-5’ on the side wall from a F-13 Fathom sub and M-L Ascent i speakers in a 14’x11’ room.

Good luck with your journey. I hope that this will give you some direction in resolving this problem. I KNOW how frustrating it can be, but with perseverence, when it is resolved it will be SO worth it. Almost everything I play now is on vinyl even though I have similarly spent on digital for not only this one, but the other systems around the house. EVERY room has its’ own music system; it’s good for what ails ya!

Sorry guys.  It’s NOT THE TT’s. All three do it on all different rack types. There is no way you get the exact same results on three different TT’s, sorry, that’s not the case here. 
Is not induced by the music. It happens on quiet passages. No music to cause pumping. 
I believe it’s EMI or similar. 
That being the case how can I track that down. 
Remember in one room the same TT and racks reproduce pumping and in the other, with all three TT and in the same rack I don’t get the pumping. Again, on quiet passages. It’s not a physical manifestation, it’s electrical. 
But thank you for your responses. 

What I'd like to know is-members who have their table setup dialed in,  no rumble filter and use sub(s).

By the reports of some, you can actually play any LP, CRANK the volume, and you have ZERO woofer pump? 

@last_lemming, I'm having a difficult time in reconciling the findings with the EMI hypothesis.  That the pumping only occurs with a turntable, is worst at the periphery of the record, and is reduced by 30% when the preamp is put into mono mode all indicate to me that it is a mechanical resonance issue.  Maybe the best thing might be to start with the basics and go from there.  If I remember correctly, the table you normally use in the room is a VPI Prime.  I would start with that and put it on the shelf without any added isolation platforms or aftermarket feet, etc. and get a sense of the resonance level.  I would then try what I think will be most effective mechanical remedy for reducing the pumping and that would be a periphery ring in concert with a record weight.  The VPI ring, at least, is designed to work in concert with a weight not with a clamp (as @mytthor mentioned),  If that eliminates the pumping, great.  If it diminishes it but doesn't eliminate it, I would then try an isolation platform or a foot upgrade and see where that gets you.  If these mechanical remedies don't cure the problem, then the next step would be wall mounting.  Given that the pumping is worse in the right speaker, I would put the wall mount over to the left.  If all of those mechanical remedies don't solve the problem, then I think the only alternative is to go with a subsonic filter.  BTW, I had suggested in an earlier post that you try to measure the vibration directly.  I have an app on my iPhone called VibSensor that does that.  I'm not sure if it's sensitive enough to pick up vibration on your platter but it would be worth a try.

tablejockey

... members who have their table setup dialed in, no rumble filter and use sub(s) ... you can actually play any LP, CRANK the volume, and you have ZERO woofer pump?

Yes.
To be fair, I don’t use subwoofers - I use a full-range speaker system that is essentially flat in-room to below 20hZ.

Larry,

I know it’s the TT per se, but it seems like some sort of interference is ramping up the pumping, because it doesn’t pump in the other room in the same set up - TT, cart, rack.

to you comments:

1. I have bought the ring. Hasn’t arrived yet
2. I have bear claws on a maple shade wood block, with the original prime feet secured to the wood block.  I have removed all these feet and tried various racks and also a concrete floor and carpet. Pumping is exactly the same in this particular room. Even on quiet passages. 
3. The TT is FURTHEST away from the right speaker where the pumping is worse. BTW the right speaker pumps more on all three TTs with 5 different carts and 3 different alignment methods. The pumping is exactly the same in all the different configurations. 4.  I did download a vibration program, but it must not be sensitive enough since the line is perfectly flat even on the most sensitive setting. 

“When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?” — Arthur Conan DoyleTime to call in an exorcist.(Sorry for the flippant reply, but you have me stumped on this one.)

@ last_lemming, What, atmasphere said yes!. Plus component three the (room.) As you said, the same equipment and rack in another room doesn't cause pumping.  :-)

I agree it has to do with the TT, but something is going on in one room that is not happening in the other and it has nothing to do with room or rack resonance. I’ve always had a weird hum coming from the electrical line in that room that I’ve always thought was a ground loop issues, but what if it is something else?
The only thing I can thing of is maybe there is some kind of electromagnetic interference that might be interacting with ll the different TT’s cart’s magnets. 
I do have a preifereal ring coming in, so we will see what happens there. 

@ last_lemming, I have a funny question, do you have a fireplace in that room where the woofer pumping is going on. Because a fireplace can cause low resonant frequencies in a room. The flue pipe is the culprit. I hope you have good luck with the preifereal ring. Mike  :-)

..just a thought.....is the table that your turntable is sitting on rock stable?

No fireplace in the room where the pumping occurred, but ironically in the room that does have a fireplace it doesn’t pump. 
Stringreen,

not sure I understand the question but the 4 surfaces I have directly coupled the TT to are:

concrete floorRigid stereo rack
heavy wood cabinet
on carpet

all of these surfaces produced the pumping exactly the same with 3 different TT’s and 5 carts. Also all these TT’s were moved around the room having the pumping issue and the pumping remained the same. 

In the other room where I don’t have pumping none of the 3 TT’s pump. 
So frustrating!

Cleeds, the problem is your room is not flat down to 20Hz. It is easier and safer to correct a subwoofer than a full range system without overloading either the speaker or the amp. 

Last Lemming, just for fun try moving your rack three feet. Changing the position of the turntable relative to the nodes in the room might have an effect if it is feedback. Feedback will tend to be sustained and limited to a small band of frequencies whereas the woofer reproducing record warps and irregularities will be random. 

I guess I should read more carefully. You have already done that.
Look at the pumping, irregular or confined to a certain frequency. 
If it is irregular we are back to subwoofer, filters and caps.

My subwoofers are corrected which means certain frequencies are boosted up to 6 dB. If I delete the subsonic filter from the program it ia mass pandemonium. It looks like the drivers want to jump right out of the cabinet. It is just inherent in vinyl if you have a good system capable of reproducing deep bass.

mijostyn

Cleeds, the problem is your room is not flat down to 20Hz.

My full-range speaker system is essentially flat in-room to below 20 hZ. It’s odd that you believe otherwise without knowing anything at all about my room.

It is easier and safer to correct a subwoofer than a full range system without overloading either the speaker or the amp.

That depends on so-ooo many variables. I’ve used my speaker system safely for years with no issues.

... If I delete the subsonic filter from the program it ia mass pandemonium. It looks like the drivers want to jump right out of the cabinet. It is just inherent in vinyl if you have a good system capable of reproducing deep bass.

Oh no, that’s not inherent to LP at all. It’s true that woofer pumping can be common with improper setup or inferior equipment, but it’s not inherent to LP playback.

I have no subsonic filter at all in my system. The bass goes down below audibility to frequencies that can only be felt, not heard. No woofer pumping. Ever.

Again, on quiet passages. It’s not a physical manifestation, it’s electrical.

@last_lemming  Is there any sort of digital, bluetooth or other device that can make RFI near the phono preamp or phono? I've seen cell phones induce woofer pumping as well as defective digital gear.