Why not?

Schiit says you can buy an expensive pc for there preamp but it wont make a difference. They shouldn't make statements as such. Do you think they have actually tried to compare there gear using different pc's. 

Schitt knows a majority of Schiit owners buy for cost first and many also believe in the "snake oil" mantra.

Better cables do not produce better sound. Start over.

@bruce19,

That is a ridiculous idea. How could they possibly make a statement like that about something that is a subjective preference?

Raven Audio includes their well made power cords with their amps.

@roxy54 i’m not sure which statement you are referring to.

Pearl Acoustics makes Sibelius cables specifically for their well regarded Sibelius SG and CG speakers. The cables are said to be developed together with the speakers. See https://pearlacoustics.com/sibelius-cables/

I am happy if the manufacture provides a power cord at all.  I wow at a dvd that comes with those red, white and yellow cables and batteries for the remote!

However, I feel High End products should NOT come with any cables at all.  Many manufactures Recommends them.  Spectral Audio twists your arm for one speaker cable brand.  Power, interconnect and speaker cables should be left to the customer for the fine tweak.  An audiophile who has experienced the benefits, already has a few of their choice.

Consider:  What if the cord or cable the manufacture recommends (sounding the best) cost of $20,000, includes it with the product and passes the cost onto the customer?  This tread would be "Should the manufacture force a power cable onto the customer?"

tump350,

you should try OCC single Crystal copper which is even better than pure copper because there's no Crystal barriers in the wire at all, pure copper is not the same as OCC single Crystal it can still be ofc wire which is very inferior to OCC single Crystal.

“I hope you feel as I do that manufacturers who are affirmatively addressing this issue deserve your attention.”

I completely disagree with ‘deserve your attention’ notion. When I am shopping for electronics, I am considering its features, design, implementation and how it’s going to sound in my system. I didn’t buy my $25K EMM Labs DAC because they included $200 Kimber Power Cable which I did not care to use, instead I used a $5K PC. 
 

This is definitely “argument” #1 cable deniers make. The truth is pretty simple: why would a manufacturer add to the cost of their gear by including a good / pricey power cord, when the user will use their own preferred power cable anyways. A basic power is included for convenience purposes.

Besides:

1) Some manufacturers do not even include a power cord

2) Some manufacturers do in fact include sufficiently good / solid power cords, not the usual $2 junk. Example: my T+A PA 3100 HV does come with a decent 20A power cord. I often use it when I am in between cables, and it sounds sufficiently good.

I completely disagree with ‘deserve your attention’ notion. When I am shopping for electronics, I am considering its features, design, implementation and how it’s going to sound in my system. I didn’t buy my $25K EMM Labs DAC because they included $200 Kimber Power Cable which I did not care to use, instead I used a $5K PC. 

@lalitk Bingo!  A perfect example and case in point.  

@holmz

I was talking about the components not the cord!

Well others are mentioning power cords.
My old gear had a detached power supply, and my newer (old gear) also has a detached power supply… so maybe it was designed not to need an ex[enive power cable?

I use mostly Mogami and Neutrik ends for DIY ICs, but I am also trying some silver IC cable and ETI ends.

Mogami (and Cardas, etc.) do at least publish the capacitance and inductance specs of the raw IC cable, as well as their speaker cable. Kimber also publishes those specs. The ones that do not publish those specs, I assume have no real R&D, nor the equipment to measure things… And they also fall mostly into what I call “the creative writing group.”

I would like to hear the difference, but I really have a hard time convincing myself that one low capacitance and low inductance cable sounds different than another.
When I basically cannot tell them apart, I conclude it is because they mostly make no difference.

Which Cardas or Kimber cables did you try Sherlock Holmes that did not make any difference? And on what?

1) AQUA includes a decent power cable with Hubbell style terminations.

2) The dealer channel would prefer manufacturers not include upmarket power cords as that is a significant profit center for the dealer.

If I may @ghdprentice  you commented earlier on that this problem had occurred to you as well. You have spent a lot more time and money than me in the pursuit of sonic excellence and I think you said in another thread that you had been in the tech industry. Given your experience, doesn't it seem to you there could be a better way to help people shop for cables than our current situation?  It is very daunting to any newcomer or even those more experienced but time and budget limited. Industry pundits bemoan the lack of new blood entering hi-fi. Certainly the cable market is a part of the impediments to feeling like you know what you are doing. 

@lalitk  and @soix  Perfectly fine to disagree, honestly. I don't think anybody would force you to buy cables you don't want and I don't think this thread was aimed at those with your extensive knowledge of the subject. It is for people like me who struggle with the whole cable thing and would like some help or who want to make the system better. However, our hobby occasionally is criticized for being elitist and snobby and that is also something worth thinking about.

And lastly, "Cable denier" is an interesting term @thyname , I assume you weren't referring to me because I indicated earlier I am agnostic at this point. I would accept the label of "cable rationalist" however because I would dearly like a reasoned way to find the best most affordable cables for my systems without having to bump around at random wasting time and money.

 

“Cable denier “ is a term attached to people who declare (and for some reason pollute all audio forums) cables do NOT matter without even trying them. I hope this helps. Best regards

Which Cardas or Kimber cables did you try Sherlock Holmes that did not make any difference? And on what?

@thyname
My dear @Watson)

The tone of your post makes it look like you are invested in the idea of power cables, and I trust the manufacturers to make their power supplies robust enough not to require special power cables.

I have not tried either of those power cables on the Nagra front end gear, nor on the Audible Illusions Modulus preamp.

If I found one to try I would be open to that, but I am pretty happy with the sound.

And in reality there is no way that the power cord is going to make it sing. If I was going to piss away that kind of money, I would be more likely to just go for the Nagra battery pack and not run any power cord into the Nagra gear.

The power supply supplies 12V, so unless I can see some smoother 12V, I am not likely to be swayed by well crafted creative writing.
But I would be open to trying it if it were readily available.

I would be even more likely to try these things if they showed the power supply voltage being more stable with their special cable than without it. But without some evidence, it devolves into the world of prose.

😂😂😂😂. Yup!

“Cable denier “ is a term attached to people who declare (and for some reason pollute all audio forums) cables do NOT matter without even trying them. I hope this helps. Best regards

But “Cable denier” is a term applied by cable believers. And in a degrading fashion.

It is really the responsibility of the person spruicking this stuff to prove it makes any difference, and not devolve into some “emperors new clothes” arguement. I mean we do have measurement equipment to show that a power supply supplies power, and at a constant voltage.

In a rational world we would have evidence that some cable helps, or does not help.
And then if it helps, does it help systems A and B, but not systems C and D?

I can imagine that some cables could help some systems, but systems that are designed with good power supplies would not likely need a multi thousand dollar cable.

@holmz nothing wrong with a stout power cable to accompany a stout power supply. Nor is there anything wrong with a interconnect and speaker cables built to a higher standard than lamp cord. @thyname there are a lot of cable deniers here.

 

there are a lot of cable deniers here.

I disagree. Just a few (in the true sense of definition). But very, very vocal. As usual 

“our hobby occasionally is criticized for being elitist and snobby and that is also something worth thinking about.”

@bruce19

I had a feeling that you would misconstrued my response. I wasn’t trying to show off but make a subtle point to pick gear not based on that nice ‘freebie’ included with a component that the manufacturer deemed fit to ‘up’ his odds to sell the gear.
I hate to make assumptions but you seem to lobby for guys who are,

1) Too lazy to take the time to compare power cords,

2) Too cheap to pony up money for a decent power cord

If you are serious about seeking help with cable selection, just list your system & budget, Agon community will be more than happy to provide guidance.

@holmz nothing wrong with a stout power cable to accompany a stout power supply.

Correct @jerryg123 - but the question is ”does anything become more right with a stout cable?”
In terms of front end gear we have nothing shown so far to suggest that it is “more right” to run a different cable.

Going from a 16ga to a 10ga on an amp seems more right. But iut would be nice to see it.

 

Nor is there anything wrong with a interconnect and speaker cables built to a higher standard than lamp cord.

Also true.
We have measurement specs for ICs, and also for some speaker cables.

I am not sure from the OPs post whether they are talking about power cables, speaker cables, or ICs.

The speaker cables and ICs have more of an impact than a power cord, and especially on equipment that is running a centralised power supply.

OP… @bruce19

Thanks for your comment. Really interesting question.

You know, at this point in the evolution of technology there is not a solution.

 

Originally, when I got into this I was a practicing scientist, and quickly I realized there were too many variables to even begin to solve this as a scientific problem… to optimize some stuff and provide an answer. You have to listen. Which, by the way is what science is all about… first observe… this is the foundation. Human hearing is truely amazing and values are highly varied and change over time.

I am fascinated with the pursuit because of a real attraction to music… but remained glued to it because of the positive feedback I received by my decisions that provided improvements in sound quality. I am fascinated by really complex and ambiguous problems… my career follows highly ambiguous complex stuff.

I remember driving at 60 mph across the Black Rock Desert a couple decades before Burning Man rocking out with the highest end Sony Walkman and high end headphones… returning to my motel room in the middle of Nevada (Winnemucca… love the town) and getting immersed in Miles Davis with my 100 wpc stereo with speakers 8 feet apart and incredible imaging. Or hanging my head out the window in Atsugi Japan listening to the best headphone system imaginable (CD player, huge portable head amp) listening to ERA. The rewards, from such effort and commitment unraveling such a complicated problem.

‘Some day I suspect technology will mature and you will buy something that can provide any sound you like. But I don’t think we are close. Fifty year? One hundred? I guess it will happen. But for now… we have to work for what we get. Some folks like the challenge, most think it is a waste of time.

My Ampzilla amps come with a custom power cord that the manufacturer thinks is the perfect match. It's hardwired into the amplifier. Love it or leave it. 

On my previous post above, I cited Musical Fidelity as providing directional RCA cables with their turntables, that should have been, ‘Music Hall’ I don’t know what I was typing, sorry for the (unintentional) misinformation. 

NO!!

“My Ampzilla amps come with a custom power cord that the manufacturer thinks is the perfect match. It’s hardwired into the amplifier.”

That’s one way to end the debate on fancy aftermarket power cords. Let’s bring back electronics with captive power cords 🤣

@lalitk 

What fun would that be? Then you couldn't spend 5k on and aftermarket cord.

@roxy54, 

I will sell all of my 5 - $5K powercords and buy the badass StormTank S5000 🤣

 

AGD is another company that includes a very nice high quality PC with each of its products.

I like the concept, that if a "perfectly designed and matched" power cord is included, it very well might sound better if it is a captive cord...

@lalitk 

Sounds good...go for it!

So we had a few additions and corrections, here is the current summary of this thread, thanks to all contributors:

Audio manufacturers who include or recommend high end cables with their equipment

Burmester
Audio Note
PS Audio. They recommend AudioQuest but they also offer their own regenerators, power cords
Krell
Schiit
Musical Hall
Merrill Audio
Naim
Classe provides a pretty good cable from DR Acoustics with the delta amplifiers
Luxman, like the others mentioned, has their own interconnects as well.
Pass Labs regularly uses Silent Source cables and cords (fairly expensive) for their audio show demo rooms....(they do include a nice quality generic cord with their equipment).
AGD supplies high quality power cords with their amps. Don't know about their other products.
Rogers High Fidelity in North Adams, MA offers a house made high quality power cord for their amps.
Raven Audio includes their well made power cords with their amps.
Schiit says you can buy an expensive pc for there preamp but it wont make a difference.
Pearl Acoustics makes Sibelius cables specifically for their well regarded Sibelius SG and CG speakers.
Spectral Audio twists your arm for one speaker cable brand
AQUA includes a decent power cable with Hubbell style terminations.
Ampzilla amps come with a custom power cord that the manufacturer thinks is the perfect match. It's hardwired into the amplifier.
AGD is another company that includes a very nice high quality PC with each of its products.

@lalitk Wrote:

That’s one way to end the debate on fancy aftermarket power cords. Let’s bring back electronics with captive power cords 🤣

I agree. Another way is to eliminate the power cord and wall plug. I run my amp directly to the dedicated branch circuit, sounds better in my opinion, then running it with a power cord. 😎

Mike

Yikes.

I had a feeling that you would misconstrued my response.

I hate to make assumptions but you seem to lobby for guys who are,

1) Too lazy to take the time to compare power cords,

2) Too cheap to pony up money for a decent power cord

If you are serious about seeking help with cable selection, just list your system & budget, Agon community will be more than happy to provide guidance.

I hate to make assumptions too, so I don't @lalitk , but I will say you seem to have a talent for being abrasive even when you say you don't mean to. Being lazy or cheap are not the only reasons someone might be dismayed at the state of the cable market.  Allow me to explain how I see it with a story.

Suppose your doctor tells you you need a pacemaker. Once you've accepted that fact she asks if you want the standard connecting cable or the premium one. She says, "I'm obliged to tell you that there is no measurable difference between the two  and no data one is better than the other and the premium one costs 100 times what the standard one does. By the way it's not covered by insurance but a lot of people like to get the premium one."

Would you feel that is an acceptable state of affairs? I would not, but I bet many if not most people and maybe me too would end up buying the premium cable. That's how I feel about the hifi cable business these days. So I'm seeking ways to try and change that.

As far as the personal advice on my system I think you and I both no how that goes. A bunch of recommendations with very little agreement which descends into a food fight.

This thread has however stimulated some thoughts on my part and I think I will be back with a proposal about a possible way to harness some of the massive experience here to try to bring a tiny bit of light to the subject. Stay tuned.

LFD offers power cords and interconnects as well as speaker cables for their Integrated. 
 

 

So I’m seeking ways to try and change that.

Good luck with that @bruce19

Besides, what seems to be the problem officer? Pick one cable. Anything. Try for yourself. Simple. No? What are you trying to accomplish? What are you trying to “change” here?

 

Nobody is going to do the work for you. You have to figure this out yourself. By trying. Or you keep reading and posting in the Internets. If that’s your thing. 

That’s one way to end the debate on fancy aftermarket power cords. Let’s bring back electronics with captive power cords 🤣

Clearly, tongue in cheek doesn't always come across on the interwebs.

 

I hate to make assumptions too, so I don’t @lalitk , but I will say you seem to have a talent for being abrasive even when you say you don’t mean to. Being lazy or cheap are not the only reasons someone might be dismayed at the state of the cable market. Allow me to explain how I see it with a story.

Suppose your doctor tells you you need a pacemaker. Once you’ve accepted that fact she asks if you want the standard connecting cable or the premium one. She says, "I’m obliged to tell you that there is no measurable difference between the two and no data one is better than the other and the premium one costs 100 times what the standard one does. By the way it’s not covered by insurance but a lot of people like to get the premium one."

The difference is that medicine is part of science, and there are standards like double blind tests, the AMA, CDC, FDA, etc that regulate that they are “doing no harm”… just like the old Greek Hippocrates advocated.

The “It feels good” branch of homeopathics, and aeroma therapy, etc. may work, or may not… but there is little evidence that it does, and is viewed as “witch doctor medicine” from a western perspective…

And hence we do not have aftermarket cables on pacemakers, nor aftermarket power cords nor batteries.

That gear has to work as intended, and there is no room for the subjective experience to be considered worthwhile when defibrillating.

It objectively becomes pretty clear whether a defibrillator works or not.

 

Would you feel that is an acceptable state of affairs? I would not, but I bet many if not most people and maybe me too would end up buying the premium cable. That’s how I feel about the hifi cable business these days. So I’m seeking ways to try and change that.

I am looking forwards to what you come up with.

I kind of like your pacemaker analogy.
(I have a soft spot in my heart for it 😍)

Why all the back and forth?  Just try some better power cords — either buy used and sell at little/no loss or buy direct from the many direct sellers and take advantage of their generous trial/return policies — and if they don’t make a significant improvement stick with the generic PCs and live happily ever after.  What I can’t accept is when people just reject out of hand PCs can make a difference and never even try better cables yet preach that better PCs can’t make a difference because there are no measurements to support it.  That’s just willful ignorance, and as @ghdprentice as a scientist has stated and while he might not fully understand why PCs make a significant difference, in reality they do in his experience for whatever reason.

Bottom line — not everything is measurable relative to what the human ear can hear.  So for those of you who follow the dogma that PCs shouldn’t make a difference, you’ve got no excuse as it’s free, or very near free, to try several brands and use your ears to see if they make a difference.  If they don’t, then fine you’re right where you started from with some good personal experience to support your beliefs.  If you haven’t yet tried better PCs, what are you afraid of — that your preconceived world might be upset and you can’t explain why?  Who cares?  If you get better sound you win whether you can explain it in measurements or not.  Sheesh. 

 

Why all the back and forth? Just try some better power cords — either buy used and sell at little/no loss or buy direct from the many direct sellers and take advantage of their generous trial/return policies — and if they don’t make a significant improvement stick with the generic PCs and live happily ever after. What I can’t accept is when people just reject out of hand PCs can make a difference and never even try better cables yet preach that better PCs can’t make a difference because there are no measurements to support it. That’s just willful ignorance, and as @ghdprentice as a scientist has stated and while he might not fully understand why PCs make a significant difference, in reality they do in his experience for whatever reason.

As a scientist I can understand that if one shows something happening on a DC supply then I know that the cord changed things.

And I also understand that people generally have a psychological bias to expect a change.

 

Bottom line — not everything is measurable relative to what the human ear can hear.

That seems like it is a bit of a magical way of thinking.

1. The people that design the electronics are more often thick glasses wearing types that understand the science.
2. The power cable people are more along the social sciences tract, that understand human nature and prose.

I would be looking for the best of group #1, before I looked for group #2.
Going for group #2, sort of implies that one should have been considering the group #1, but decided not to.

Secondly; the onus should not be upon the rational to prove that other are not hearing voices, it is upon those that hear the things to provide some evidence or reasoning that their stories have a basis is reality.

 

So for those of you who follow the dogma that PCs shouldn’t make a difference, you’ve got no excuse as it’s free, or very near free, to try several brands and use your ears to see if they make a difference. If they don’t, then fine you’re right where you started from with some good personal experience to support your beliefs. If you haven’t yet tried better PCs, what are you afraid of — that your preconceived world might be upset and you can’t explain why? Who cares? If you get better sound you win whether you can explain it in measurements or not. Sheesh.

Another approach is that It is entirely possible that some gear does enjoy a change from a power cord swap. (But probably the gear that I would not be looking at.)

Most of the quality gear is designed well, and putting specials cords on sub standard gear is sort like putting lipstick, or spats, onto a pig. (It does make for a better looking and more handsome pig.)

It is usually pretty easy to call the distributor or manufacturer to ask them.

This is sort of exactly as @bruce19 asked at the end of his post:

Mostly I would like to know if I am wrong and there are some examples of manufacturers who either include, offer or recommend specific power, interconnect and speaker cable for their products. Thanks community members for offering a place to ask this question that keeps gnawing at me.

Here you go @bruce19:
For the example of Nagra, their agent agrees with @soix and others.
(But they also basically said to consider the 12V battery ahead of a power cord.)

I would be asking @atmasphere, Suprateck, AR, Purifi etc. if they recommend a different power cord or not… and why? And if it has been tested?

 

Here is exactly what the local Swiss agent told me:

If running constantly off the mains power I would say yes, upgrading a power cord would make a difference sonically.

If going the battery option, I wouldn’t worry too much about power cables as once your in battery mode - the interconnects would make a larger difference here

I’;ll admit that ^This^ came a surprise to me… Their MPS (power supply) is not cheap. And it sounds pretty nice.

 

I’ll probably get a spare Lemo connector made, and try and quantify the voltage stability.
Then if I try a power cord, I could run the 12V through a power divider and digitise it with an ADC and have some objective data.

Even at the top of the high end, products are built to hit certain price points, with certain parts and pieces decisions made accordingly. The car tire analogy is an accurate one - good enough to last the buyer a fair amount of time but not the best one available. Secondly, not every manufacturer spends time testing after market tweaks with their products. Some do but many are already busy enough just keeping their products available, especially given today's product pipeline shortages.

 

As a scientist I can understand that if one shows something happening on a DC supply then I know that the cord changed things.

@holmz Ah, I see.  You don’t trust your own ears.  Got it.  You and @ghdprentice would have an interesting conversation as two scientists with polar opposite views on cables.  Why not just try an aftermarket PC just to see/hear for yourself?  What are you afraid of — that your comfortable and convenient world of theories and measurements might implode if your ears tell you they’re hearing actual improvements?   Or maybe you won’t find any improvements or maybe even decreased performance.  Either way, that’s called learning — a concept I’d think a scientist would embrace.  

Why not just try an aftermarket PC just to see/hear for yourself?

@soix : it's not going to work. They will never try anything for themselves. Trust me, I have attempted to do this several times over the years. I have even offered to send them for free power cords / cables, nothing fancy, basic good quality stuff at about $100 - $200 range. They have always refused. It is a "thing" for them. They will never try out of principle. I have given up attempting to help them. I already know the story the moment I see their very first post. It is an exercise in futility, no matter what.

 

@soix and @holmz  Funny story about that. A friend lent me a pair of MIT Terminator2 speaker cables. I put them in my system, replacing some Crutchfield generic cables, and was amazed! Clarity, texture! I was so smitten I bought a pair of MIT Terminator2 interconnects just to see if what I was hearing could be further enhanced. Sure enough, better still. Enjoyed them for a couple of months, reveling in what I was hearing. Time came to give them back, which I really was sad to do. Determined i would have to get a set of my own. Replaced them with the old cable. Everything still sounded good. I could not find fault with the system.

Possible conclusions;

1. I am a hopeless audiophile wannabe who should be banned from any audio show room hencewith.

2. The MIT cables magically transformed my system when I installed them and somehow left their goodness there even after they were removed.

3. My expectation of how good I expected those MITs to be clouded my judgement and dimmed by auditory memory sufficiently that I could fool myself.

4. The MIT cables did change the sound and I heard that and thought it was "better", but the change back to the original was not as drastic as I had expected and I discovered I liked that "flavor" just as much as the MITs.

@big_greg Wrote:

My Ampzilla amps come with a custom power cord that the manufacturer thinks is the perfect match. It’s hardwired into the amplifier. Love it or leave it

My Crown Studio Reference One Amp comes with a custom permanently attached power cord that is 10AWG with a 30 amp plug that is cold welded into the amplifier by the manufacturer so you cannot remove it. They also give you a Pass & Seymour 125 volt 30 amp wall plug in the box when you buy the amp new and they recommend a licensed electrician to install a minimum125V 30A dedicated circuit, just for the Crown amp. Crown does not offer an aftermarket quality AC power cable for this amp but they do give you a permanently attached, properly designed and most importantly, a well implemented AC power cable to perfectly match this amp. See image #2 power cord:

https://reverb.com/item/21627144-crown-studio-reference-1-one-industry-standard-amp-power-amplifier-good-c