Why I'm not adding a sub to my 2-way monitors for music
I've updated my blog post with more data, more analysis and the conclusion that in my particular case I do not need a subwoofer. I encourage everyone who is on the fence about adding a subwoofer or not to read and comment. I think that either way you'll be able to make more informed buying and configuration choices.
Everyone's situation is different but I hope the post helps you get to the right conclusions.
I own stand mounts as well as floor standers ,and by asd8ng a subwoofer - A Quality one ,two even better more even bass , the bass fundamentals just donot effect the low frequencies ,but also up into the lower midrange .
when setup properly the music as a whole is much more substantial as music
as a whole .i have been into audio for a long time and owned a Audio store fir 10
years and have had the opportunities to compare most every type of Loudspeaker type ,and setup in rooms . Whst ever you do is totally up to you ,but there is ample proof out there 1-2 subwoofers of respectable quality is a win win ..
svs 3000s has a great app to find tune your system , JL Audio, Rel , Kef , and several others are verygood.
You definitely were on the right track by avoiding boost and cutting the peaks.
Just curious how close your speakers are placed near the walls?
I am not a total sub fiend but even though my mains go to 45Hz as measured, the two REL T9i I have provide the dynamics, impact, sustain, texture and hall ambience that make a big difference for me and my system. The RELs are more subtle and musically accurate than other subs I have tried as well as being easy to integrate and they avoid coloring the midrange- all reasons why I like them so much.
Its all room and speaker dependent and room treatments and speaker placement. I was going crazy with measurements. I was able to get the Fritz Carrera Be to play -3db at 20hz and damn near flat from 23hz to 100hz in my last house.
Its so room dependent and speaker placement dependent and if you aren’t taking measurements you’re pretty much shooting in the dark.
I’ll just say that if you enjoy listening to monitors without a couple good subs, you either have crap subs or don’t know how to set them up. My experience is that when you eliminate subs from a well setup system the soundstage collapses along with dynamics and it makes the sound feel like it’s severely compromised and almost broken and don’t wanna listen without the subs. I’ve found this with full-range speakers as well, so it’s even more pronounced with bass-limited monitors. But that’s just my experience. There’s a reason Wilson and others use subs even with their $100,000+ speakers, so for you to say you don’t need them with some monitors — nah.
I’ve been fighting with room acoustics and a REL T9x for over a month. I was at the point of selling it until I went completely against the set up recommendations and moved it out of the corner, raised it onto a 1” granite slab and decoupled it with Herbies grungebuster pads under the feet. Now everything clicked into place, bass grip and definition, soundstage are spectacular. best of all, the relentless room resonance is gone. I don’t like the aesthetics of having treatments all over my apartment. If I ever get a dedicated listening room I’d be all for a different approach but for what I have to work with now, a sub is a phenomenal acquisition. I’m sure others are in the same situation.
Audiophiles who do this do one of two things. They buy a sub and set it to have as low a cut off frequency as possible, which is a HUGE waste, or try to blend them in without high passing the mains. In neither case the results are mediocre to non existent.
Your comment should be clarified to say that this applies to bandwidth limited monitors. I have speakers with folded horn bass drivers. This bass is some of the best that can be had. It would be foolish to high pass LaScalas. So I do just what you advocate against, bring the subs in very low. And it works fabulously.
Not a one size fits all solution, neither is yours.
They always do, but we take them to avoid optimizing for a 1mm wide cube where our nose might be if it were in a vise. I’m not being deceptive, I’m being thorough. This is considered good practice.
They may sound good but I’m guessing not even in the same league as bigger full range speakers
Au contraire, mon ami!
Audiophiles who do this do one of two things. They buy a sub and set it to have as low a cut off frequency as possible, which is a HUGE waste, or try to blend them in without high passing the mains. In neither case the results are mediocre to non existent.
To blend a speaker, of any size, with a subwoofer requires the same careful planning and forethought.
The frequency sweeps on your loudspeaker look good but that is not the whole story. The averaged results looking the best. They may sound good but I'm guessing not even in the same league as bigger full range speakers that could blend in a sub a little better. Not having your speakers to listen to puts me at a disadvantage but let's just say you didn't like the sub in your particular application but I would not want to paint all systems with that broad brush.
I hear you, Erik. What I meant to say was that I'm learning that the initial way of going as an audiophile is toward "more" but you're explaining how "less" can be "more," and I want to be open to that.
I’m definitely not encouraging you not to use them. :) I hope the article instead gives you ideas about how to get the most out of what you got.
In a modest living room, well treated, with modest volumes I got pretty happy. That’s not to say that integrating a sub wouldn’t improve the dynamic range and clarity, but rather that as the 2 way system gets better it gets harder and harder for me to justify the extra lift to put a sub in. I may still for the sake of the blog. :)
Unfortunately for a lot of audiophiles they go from 2-ways with OK bass to 2 ways with crappy sounding subs. :-) I'm hoping these articles help readers get to 2 ways with great bass OR 2 ways with a great sounding subwoofer by measuring the output and making informed decisions.
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