wolf-garcia, I accept that you know more about this area than I. But when I was playing that’s what I experienced--standing around while the drums and bass were done first, and pushed to a high volume. I won't say we never had good sound in the end.
Why does rock concert sound suck?
I have been to two rock concert in the past year : Brit Floyd in Bridgeport CT and Eric Clapton at Madison Square Garden, NYC (last Monday)
For Brit Floyd I was about 40 feet form the stage and treble end was an ear-splitting distorted sound - the soprano solo on Dark Side of the Moon sounded like a chain saw running at 5x speed.
For Eric Clapton I was sitting at floor level about 20 rows behind the mixing desk - i.e., the opposite end from the stage. In this case the high top end was not so distorted, but the voices were still very harsh - seemingly a massive response peak at ~1500hz. Imagine AM radio with the treble turned up 20db.
I knew a lot of the words form the songs ahead of time of course, and just about recognized them, but otherwise the lyrics were unintelligible. The only exceptions were when he sang a quieter song - e.g., “Tears in Heaven” . Clapton moved back from the mic rather than place his mouth right next to it. Then the sound was quite listenable .
Of course managing the acoustics in such a big venue is no doubt a challenge — but does it have to be this bad?
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I've been to some excellent sounding concerts... and a lot that suck when it comes to sound. The great sounding ones though teach you how rock should sound ... through your speakers! Likewise, a live orchestral performance is the real thing... it amazes me when "audiophiles" are oh so effete that they forget about what music performed live actually sounds like. Some of the most boring concerts I've been to were "perfect"... TOO perfect, and thus lacked that edge, that excitement, that daring, that dynamism. Steve Winwood, Elvis Costello, Journey ("back in the day"), and one "The Wall" show I saw done by Roger Waters; perfect sound, technically slick performance, sounded "just like the album" w no grit and gusto and so, What's the point? |
Dear Lovers of Live Rock Concerts, this year together with friends I really enjoyed different Rock Concerts and from point of sound quality I was deeply impressed especially in Munich, Olympia Stadium, middle of the stage, approx. 20 meters away from stage - G n‘ R. Sound pressure was lower than 120 dB (Z) and Axl’s speech intelligibility and instruments (Slash was amazing) were clear with impressive, crisp bass lines. Another nice concert in terms of sound quality (and live performance of Bruce Dickinson) I‘ve alived in Stuttgart at Cannstatter Wasen, seat in 09:30 position, nearly at stage level was this years Iron Maiden show. To safe my ears especially during the performances of the bands before the main acts I wear ALPINE Party Plug Pro Natural earplugs. As you probably know my home Hifi equipment is not the worst so I am able to compare. ronfruehling |
@asvjerry +1 on Blue Man Group. Just might be the most fun you can legally have at home? It seems that live concerts othen involve three bands. The opener, the one in between, and the one your REALLY came to see. The producers want to see the energy and excitement build as the night goes on, hitting its peak at the moment the featured band takes the stage. MY reality is that the sound level of the opening act is just right. The second act is too loud. And, the featured band is often times unbearable. I’m not speaking from an audiophile perspective here, but as a living, breathing organism with a fairly high tolerance for pain and discomfort. But, I have my limits. I’ve seen Joan Jett twice. In a 5,000 seat multipurpose facility and an outdoor venue. The sound guys got it right both times. They seem to understand the concept of delivering a high degree of "kickassery" while preserving some degree of dynamic headroom to make those most energetic moments impactful. Graham Nash’s guys nailed it at The Pageant in St. Louis a few year back. Could not have wished for a better listening experience. Brought our small motorhome to the Moondance Jam festival in Walker, Minnesota in 2019. I’ll give the overall experience a 9.3 on the 10 scale, while the sound was in the low 7’s. One night, the expected ratching of sound levels occurred and when that evenings featured band, Tesla, took the stage it was excruciating and we just had to hit the eject button. We wondered back to the RV located about 1/2 mile as the crow flies from the stage. We opened the windows, poured out our favorite beverages, and spread out on the sofa. The sound level was just right. Have tickets to a Jon Kay (Steppenwolf) acoustic performance in a small, intimate venue in a couple of weeks. Been to this venue before and have high expectations of a great evening. |
The speakers that the Mixing Engineer used might not be nearly as good as yours, if you've selected yours carefully, first of all... especially for a home. The studio monitors are designed, first of all, for the studio. Unless you get the exact same monitors and amps used for each recording, and have your room set up like a studio, and have your volume at the same volume, and you have the same ears as the engineer... well, you get my point.
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Another thing that might be interesting to this thread is that I was browsing around on YouTube and there was an episode (I don't recall, it may have been the "Audiophiliac" guy) in which a gathering of "audiophiles" was in a home, I believe in New York, and an interviewer went around and asked individuals "What is 'snake oil' in audio?" The range of responses was ... revealing. But the response that stood out to me was one guy who said, essentially: "It's ALL snake oil. None of it sounds like real music, and it can never hope to. I don't care what your system is, it does not reproduce the experience of a performance at Carnegie Hall, nor any other hall where music is actually performed. Once I finally realized this, I stopped spending money on stereo gear, and now I spend my money on live performances so I can actually experience the real thing." Something to think about. |
@curtdr >>>The studio monitors are designed, first of all, for the studio...well, you get my point<<< No doubt about it. I'm familiar with nearfields vs standard home audio system speakers. I've been to the CES high performance audio rooms many times over, AXPONA in Chicago a bunch of times, a few official recording studios, and I've been a Radio Broadcast Engineer for over 3 decades (lots of studios and audio equipment involved with that!). I've taken it all in, and tried to recreate (within budget) all of the good things I've heard. Acoustics also plays into this big time. When it comes to audio, my ears and brain have about 45 years of experience involved here. I know what sound I'm shooting for. My point is, when many audio enthusiasts (I think I do like that description better than audiophiles) are trying to assemble a system that replicates live performance PA systems (I seem to hear that mentioned frequently), I'm shooting for a more recording studio sound quality. |
@waytoomuchstuff , Right Arm!...uh, I mean, On....*L* ;) A few years back, Smashing Pumpkins played a local small venue louder than flesh 'n feathers could stand. Inside, you could yell at lungs's top to the person next to you and not be understood...misunderstood, Yes... "I NEED TO TAKE A PISS!" (spouse) "WHA....? YOU WANT HIS WHAT??1" 3 deep on the sidewalk outside had a better 'experience'...*L* At least Pink Floyd was enjoyable in contrast, even when the rain came and went....while it poured, the inflatable pig over the infield crowd appeared to be urinating on the people below, a goofy sight to see and recall even now.... ;) @ the BMG 'The Complex' show attended @ CWP/HOU, smallish attendance for a not so large outdoor facility. BMG show opens with a pair of reader boards left and right stage that initially started a conversation with each other. One began to play the 'victim', a bit of bitch and moan about this 'n that. The conversation began to draw in the audience for yay 'n nays, which led into the performance... Talk about an unusual 'warm-up' act....*L* And some things should just be played loud, just because. The Cult > She Sells Sanctuary is one....Prodigy's Narayan is another.. The latter has a nice 'growl' goin' from the woofs... But....too much has this 'additive effect'....makes you play chit like this at the stoplight, windows down, cranked..... Trampsta>Work (Tell me it doesn't make you want to dance...yeah....*L*) |
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That is one of the biggest reasons I walked away as fast as I could from Rock-n-Roll early on. In the 30s through the 50s we had a lack of high quality electronic equipment to work with then somewhere in the 50s we discovered dedicated sound engineers. They were mostly self-taught and not well versed in sound. They all had their own idea of how things should sound. Thus we had to get creative with our listening environment by utilizing things like Graphic Equalizers. Though today there are actual schools teaching sound engineering, much of it is left up to the individual. Many artists have their own Special guy that they will used and who travels with them, then there are others who depend on the house sound man or a locally hired sound man hired by the promoter. We have much the same problems with the gear used. Even when I first traveled around with an early garage band doing their sound, though we brought our own gear, we were DICTATED to by the club owners or property management as to what we were allowed do with the sound. Ironically I have to agree with @dpop and don’t want anything in my system to colour or alter the sound but prefer to hear what the engineer heard and try to get into his mind. He was as much responsible for a Band or groups sound or style as the group. |
I've always preferred club venues for sound quality. No, you won't see U2 but back in the day all the cool indie bands played the clubs. Now? I can't stay up late enough to even see the opening act. A few years back I had tickets to see Killing Joke. I figured I could see at least a few songs before sneaking out to head home to bed. Called the venue to see what time they'd be on, and the answer was "some time after 12:30." OK, not gonna be awake at that time. I know it's not rock'n'roll, but hey it's the music of the older generations now, not the children, and it would be great if there were more early shows. |
The reason is nothing is analog it's all digitally processed. From the mic feed to the board the amplification many layers of processing are going on stripping the soul out of the music. But there is a bit of a rebellion going on younger guys are buying vintage PA gear and running a less processed setup. |
@jji666 - I got to see U2 play two shows in one night in a club in San Francisco in 1979! They were indeed a cool indie band back then, though 'indie' wasn't used then. Where was that Killing Joke gig? Most shows I've been at over the decades have had to be over by 11pm. But I know places like NYC tend to run a lot later.... |
@larsman - this was the Cabaret Metro in Chicago. There are many venues in Chicago that will go late. Or well at least they used to when I was a regular at shows. I did get to see Killing Joke in 1989 and so I'm not upset I missed them, but man, I'd go see many concerts if they were over by 8:00. I saw U2 at the Aragon in 1984. The Aragon isn't a small club, but nowhere near an arena or stadium either. They were spectacular and the sound was really good. Seriously tight band. Then saw them at Soldier Field. More like holding up a postcard of the band while listening to a CD. |
1981, Pontiac Silverdome (with it’s giant balloon of a roof). Iggy Pop / Santana / Rolling Stones Santana blew the roof off the place and actually managed to sound good, in that stadium. I’ve seen Santana literally dozens of times since about 1980 and he has always had some of the best live sound of any "rock" show I’ve seen. But managing to pull it off in the notoriously awful-sounding Silverdome (saw the Who there about a year prior, and the lyrics were absolutely unintelligible from start to finish) was a live sound engineering marvel, IMO. Not only that, but he really blew the Stones off the stage as well. Their performance was moderately average to mediocre in both sound and execution. Word was that they almost had to pull Santana off the stage after their 90-minute set, they were so smoking. Probably the best Santana show I’ve ever seen (next to the one I took my then 3-year old daughter to, which amazingly enough, turned HER into a lifelong Santana fan, even to this day; she was at the recent show at Pine Knob when he collapsed onstage from heat exhaustion). |
@booman - Porcupine Tree was just here in San Francisco on Wednesday night; a bunch of my friends went but I didn't, as I'm still not going to concerts this year for health reasons. I've seen P.T. and S.W. every other time they've come to town, though and yes, superb sound!! |
I saw the Stones on that same ’81 tour in Dallas and I was very let down by the poor performance... it was not a strong show. Later in ’88 or 89 I saw them on the Steel Wheels tour in Cleveland, and that was a great show, and the sound was good too... in Cleveland Stadium! I saw The Who and Neil Young at that venue I think '89 and the sound in that stadium for both of those bands was good, at least where I was sitting. I think maybe ’81 the Stones were too coked up to care, and they came off as a bunch of posers. I passed on their most recent tour, though, because ticket prices made me sick... |
Ok where to start the place where the show is yes ,absolutely, but also the sound engineer. Where you seat is also counts depending if its indoors or out doors The last shows I have seen 2 were at Jones Beach and outdoor arena. I saw the Outlaws and Lynard Skynyrd we were standing at the VIP bar which is off to the side and like 12 rows from the stage.Sounded Great.Saw Chicago there was just to the side of the stage and 10 rows back sounded Great.But I saw Deep Purple and Alice Cooper there in 2019 was upstairs in front row.Alice was good sounding, Deep Purple sound terrible, the lead singer voice was to low you couldn't hear him,so we left,that had to be the engineer fault.At Bridge port another smaller outdoor place sat 9th down just off center,LoverBoy,REO Speed wagon,Styxs all sounded good,loud but good.The loudest I can remember was Robin trower at the Paramount in Huntington NY,indoor place old movie theather.Sat upstairs but was very close to the stage and he blew,my ears out.OMG.Should of had earplugs.But way back in 1972csaw YES,King Crimson and the stars were Procol Harum,and sat 8th row and they were Loud then you too the MTA subway home and if you couldn't hear then it was a great show I was 20 back then now I'm 70.Saw Santana at the Fillmore East I'm 1970 just after Woodstock and they were loud.but sounded great.Saw Elton John at MSG in 1976 sat right behind the stage sound was good.Saw David Bowie there Diamond Dogs tour sound was Good.ELP sound GOOD sat about 24 rows from the stage.Saw Kiss in 1972 they just started at a small club in Sunnyside, Queens NY they were loud and almost burned the place down.Saw them at the old Palladium on 14 st NYC.Sat in balcony they were,loud abs felt the heat from Gene's flames ,lol.Saw Allmans Brothers there in 1972 and they sounded great 12 row back.i saw alot of shows there all over the place sound was always good.But I say it's the Sound Engineer that makes the biggest adjustments. |
Good topic. I say it is the sound board person. I attended an outdoor concert a couple of years ago. Cheap Trick, Heart, Joan Jett. Sat dead center about 20 rows back. Cheap Trick was a total mess--could hear NO vocals, the guitars were a smear, and the bass was non musical, only gut-thumping. Then came Joan. PERFECT sound mix, dynamic range, was like listening to the recordings live. Then came Heart, one of my fav bands. Again, a total mess--vocals, which are obviously their strong suit, were not intelligible, the band mix was terrible, and there was no definition of the instruments, just a wall of loud noise. SAME PA system, SAME board, terrible mixing. Saw Steve Miller band a couple of years ago indoors. SUPERB sound. Went to an indoor concert not long after for a famous female vocalist. HORRIBLE sound, no vocals that could be distinguished, and a terrible mix of the band. I would agree that the sound board person is at fault. I refuse to attend any more live concerts, and I have seen almost everyone since 1962--I keep the ticket stubs and remember them. Good ones--Beatles outdoors, Stones both inside and out, Hendrix indoors twice, etc,. etc., etc. Even the Dick Clark Caravan of stars outdoors in Raleigh in 1964 was excellent with over a dozen DIFFERENT acts including Gene Pitney and the Supremes--totally different sounds. Great sound from equipment that was NOT digital or advanced. |
Great topic, I have been to dozens of shows and thought the same. One puzzle was Pitchfork where a band that should sound good - Spiritualized I had to put in the earplugs (recommended) that tame the high end. Rock also seems mixed in mono, but all is in the hands of the soundboard. That day Noname and Earl Sweatshirt, however, both sounded sublime. One live and one DJ mix but I think they just had the right soundboard people. I also experienced a real Jamaican Soundsystem in Porto, that was the greatest sound ever (look it up, a mountain of speakers all specially tuned). Sheer power, but not really loud. You could stand right next to the speakers and they would suck the air in and out of your lungs. Sheer bliss, but rarely went over 88db. I measured it. Lots of bass though and super tight bass which is likely why big venues suck for way too much bass cancellation. This was outdoors btw which probably helped. Also a clue. If anyone came near, they started dancing. Couldn’t help it. In big concerts, watch. No dancing, normally the sound just isn’t groovy. |
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I recently went to see Echo and the Bunnymen at the Fox theater in Oakland CA. What a disastrous experience. I knew I was in trouble the moment the opening act started playing. My seat vibrated along with my chest. I had to step out for a while. Echo and the Bunnymen sounded the same. Music?? NO.It was nothing more than loud noise. Ear plugs are in no way a solution. I walked out after the 4th song. If I thought I could be reimbursed for the ticket price and for pain and suffering I'd sue. I was both very disappointed and pissed off. |
In the last 30 years the trend for sound men /engineers think loudness and extreme bottom end are more important than clarity and quality of sound. The large venues are the worst and we’re paying premium price for tickets to this sonic wreck. I too am very picky about the venue for future live performances Good luck Willy-T |
