Why do you think Bi-Wiring improves the sound ?

@ alexdv1: thanks for posting this link! I agree 100% on technical details for bi-wiring there. from schematics side, bi-wiring is a two independent networks connecting presumably low output impedance amp to lo/hi speakers, while single cable is shared cable impedance between lo/hi thus lesser speaker isolation https://www.qacoustics.co.uk/blog/2016/06/08/bi-wiring-speakers-exploration-benefits/

No,  but it was really obvious, no need, not at all subtle.  I'm not a tweaker or believer in fancy cables, gold plated power connectors, any of that crap.  But bi-amping is a substantially different equipment configuration that is naturally going to sound very different.  Part of it is I think the 30-year old crossovers in my Maggies probably need refreshing, and so using an active crossover is a better bet.  

^^^ Did you measure the frequency response pre / post?

I didn't see any benefit from bi-wiring.  Active bi-amping, on the other hand, with my Magnepans (built to biamp) was a huge jump in sound quality.  Literally, veil lifted off.  

FWIW, I build my own loudspeakers.  The most recent pair, a 2-way, has the woofer and wide-range driver on two separate boards, isolated from one another. To my ears,  they sound best bi-wired. 

Unless Vandersteen knows what your amplifier or wires are, there would be no way to predict the outcome, based on the rest of what you wrote. Products often incorporate designers "beliefs" which may or may not agree with reality.

I’ll trust the speaker designers’ opinions - ON THEIR OWN SPEAKERS. If Vandersteen has designed to benefit from bi-wiring, then the speakers might benefit from bi-wiring. If Dynaudio says "do not bi-wire," they probably won’t benefit from bi-wiring, no matter what Vandersteen says - after all he didn’t design the Dynaudios.

My Mission Cyrus 781 speakers were specifically designed to be bi-wired...At the time I experience a better sound when I go with the dual cabling........

Bi-wiring was required for my Mission speakers and I sense a more detailed sound when I did it...




I dont remember where I just wrote this, but I make a mistake if this is my quote....

mahgister wrote: "In my experience bi-wiring never improves the sound”

mahgister wrote: "In my experience bi-wiring never improves the sound”

more details needed to understand findings: 1) speaker: impedance/ 2Way or 3Way / speakers internal x-over design 2) length/resistance/inductance of cable 3) amplifier used

bi-wiring will “tangible” improve sound if: 1) initial cable is long (6+ft, high resistance 50+mOhm, high inductance 2) amplifier is high quality 3) speakers are 3 way

If 90% of all audio system and probably more, are not rightly embedded in their three dimensions : mechanical, electrical, and acoustical, how is it possible to perceive subtle or less subtle qualitative changes?

How to rightly qualify them positive or negative changes?

How to judge if a cable or 2 cables are always better or always detrimental for the same speakers?

It is impossible.... Why people then give judgements?

Because they dont have a clue about the rightful controls necessary for making the best of their own system...


I know that because I was like that 3 years ago …. :)



If you ask me how do we know if our system is right? I will answer that one clue is that the idea to upgrade anything appear suddenly like a total waste of money....The other clue is when you dont perceive any speakers at all in the room... The last clue is when you clearly distinguish all accurate timbre of each instrument in an orchestra....And perhaps when it is impossible to change any files or any cd just playing now because it is too much beautiful, you are right there....

In my experience bi-wiring never improves the sound, it is always horses for courses, you win something and you lose something.
The initial feeling of an improved sound is often caused by a slightly better separation, but after a while I realise that the presentation have lost some coherence.
I gave up on bi-wiring long ago, and my amplifier manufacturer (Lavardin) bluntly advises against it.
With a limited budget having a better single wire speaker cable rather than a cheaper bi-wire one works fo me.

Capacitance, inductance, reflections, phasing, and terminations are all part of the speaker wire equation. There is no way to predict how they will interact with your speakers and amp.

I’ll trust the speaker designers’ opinions - ON THEIR OWN SPEAKERS. If Vandersteen has designed to benefit from bi-wiring, then the speakers might benefit from bi-wiring. If Dynaudio says "do not bi-wire," they probably won’t benefit from bi-wiring, no matter what Vandersteen says - after all he didn’t design the Dynaudios.

Unless the bi-wire has different construction for highs and lows, it’s unlikely that you will hear the difference. Unless you bi-amp also. But then we’re back to the active crossover question. Which may improve or deteriorate the sound you hear.

How many reflection points within cables are acceptable? How many strands is too many for capacitance to bass? One? Fifty? At what frequency, for your amp/speakers, does the surface effect go internal? Can you hear it? Does it strain the amp? Does it change the speaker response to impedance variations with frequency?

Will bi-wire sound better or worse if you change components? It will probably be different. Can you predict by reading opinions? Probably not. Can you tell by listening? Probably not without A-B comparisons. Can you A-B without a duplicate system, perfectly matched? Probably not.
Can you make a valid generalization about bi-wiring? Probably not.

Short answer: There is no silver bullet answer.

(1) it depends on your bespoke system entirely , AND ,
(2) improvements from bi-amping rather than bi-wiring is another different animal entirely.

NORDOST has a brief commentary:
http://info.nordost.com/norse-biwirejumpers-instructionguide

They also highlight that a shotgunned double run of quality cables with quality jumpers instead of bi-wires may be your best bet.... But take it for a test drive yourself.

CHORD has their two-bits worth in the same vein.... CHORD no longer makes dedicated bi-wires and also suggest that quality single runs with matched jumpers may be your better performers. http://www.chord.co.uk/help-and-informa ... ngle-wire/

My own personal experiences: a shotgunned double-run with matched shotgunned jumpers of high-end cables in the diagonal speaker hookup arrangement suggested by the NORDOST article beat all bi-wires in my system.

This is what most of the prior posts have already laid out .... go get a better set of cables .

@millercarbon  I concur with your early post.  I used to bi-wire my speakers until I purchased more expensive wiring.  I had a heavy gauge woofer wire and a smaller gauge mid/tweeter wire (same manufacturer, similar design).  About 12 years ago, the manufacturer provided a superior jumper and superior speaker cable.  The overall improvement over the bi-wire was evident.  I've upgraded the speaker cable once more.  Outstanding sound, with a bass jumper.  Plus, I saved 50% on another set of cables.  I was never a fan of solid copper jumpers for bass (never for mid/tweeter) that speaker manufacturers supplied (too crude and sounds that way).  

I did biwire for my very first Yamaha amp - and I loved the biwire sound much much better with my JBL towers. $300 amp + $300 speakers - joined me into the audio world. 

I am a big fan of biwiring.

cd318

So Do You THINK bi-wiring improves sound ?

mirolab85,

"It all comes down to HOW WAS IT DESIGNED!!"


You must be one hell of a confident dude if you genuinely believe you can easily mod the 801s for better sound.

I used to be similarly ’confident’ but eventually, after only a mere 15/20 years of wasting time and money, the penny sunk.

To upgrade - buy a better product - but if funds are tight right now, wait. Throwing good money after bad never works.

Think about it, one man versus all the resources and all the know-how of the mighty Bowers & Wilkins.

https://www.bowerswilkins.com/en-gb?gclid=CjwKCAjwqdn1BRBREiwAEbZcR_Ymb9I1eJVR0AIYEJPWexOqoTOk5aMCjn...

@mirolab
I'm disappointed that your efforts didn't produce positive results .
I looked up images of the 801 S2 speakers and was able to find pictures of the crossover board and of a modded board .
How did you bi-wire your speakers or where did you seperate the 
bass from the mid/tweeter ? 
Please provide us with more information .

For my speakers it would be easy since the crossover boards are already seperated and both are connected at the speaker posts .
But I'm still not convinced or curious enough to try bi-wiring yet .

mirolab:
What amplifiers, cables, connectors, etc. for single and bi-wire?

Speakers are 'voiced' to the room and equipment the designer has.
They sound different everywhere else.

First Hand Experience: I’ve owned my B&W 801-S2’s for over 25 years, and have tried on 3 separate occasions to "improve" them with bi-wiring. It seems that about every 10 years I need to re-prove it to myself. Each time, the resulting sound was phasey and less coherent. The 801’s have great driver integration. You don’t hear woofer+mid+tweeter. They gel into single voice very nicely, and that falls apart with bi-wiring....... every time. I even lived with them bi-wired for a couple weeks to get accustomed to that sound, and I did.... until I went back to single wire, and they suddenly sounded more correct.

It all comes down to HOW WAS IT DESIGNED!! If the designer voiced the crossover with bi-wiring, then OF COURSE it’s going to sound more correct that way. But what stupid designer would do that, when only a very small percentage of users will bi-wire?

Just last year, I finally upgraded my 801’s binding posts, and converted them to using only 1 pair of higher quality terminals. I have performed many other crossover mods on them over the years that have improved these 801’s greatly, but bi-wiring is NOT one of them.

My  Mission Cyrus 781 speakers were specifically designed to be bi-wired...At the time I experience a better sound when I go with the dual cabling........

@sfischer1 

Thank You and very well presented .

@ieales

Negative retorts are not appreciated ,
you have your opinion about the subject as do others ,
respect that's R E S P E C T to quote Aretha  .

I think I'll listen to her album next .

Simple answer on question on if bi-wiring improves or not sound is - yes, it will improve sound.

The longer cable is, the better improvement will be. Alternative to bi-wiring solution to improve sound could be mono-blocks closer to speakers, and shortening cables. If speaker cable is 2ft or less, bi-wiring will not improve anything much.

Main reason to have bi-wiring option is a fact as speaker is not linearly behaving load, and therefore sharing cable connection resistance and inductance will increase intermodulation between low/mid/high. For low freq. speaker resistance of cable should be lower than mid/high, because speakers (almost) never use crossovers with additional in series resistor for lows, and also utilize lowest ESR Inductors $$. Mid/High  crossovers typically have couple of Ohms in series resistors, and therefore 100 mOhm cable resistance does not make any difference. The most important for Mid/High cable is to have lowest as possible inductance. 

Maybe getting higher quality jumpers rather than using the typically crappy factory ones would be a factor too.

Definitely for the high quality jumper vendor. He'd have your money.

I should have asked if bi-cabling or 2 seperate runs of cable sound better ?

Better to whom?
Different? Possibly.

I've since come to see that the amount of benefit of a power cord depends on the application.

What a concept: S Y S T E M    D E P E N D E N C Y
Who'da thought? <vbg>

As oft opined, any specific claim is only valid for the claimant! YMMV

The Vandersteen website discusses this well

A technically good amplifier is like an ideal voltage source with a low output series resistance and able to supply whatever current a load (wire, crossover, drivers) require. The problem is that the long wire presents a series resistance and inductive load with some shunting capacitance which causes the signal at the loudspeaker end to be different from that at the amplifier end, depending on the current being drawn. Even this is a gross simplification. Engineers model elements of a system to be good enough. Enough for what?  Enough for realization of basic function and requirements.  This doesn't mean that a power amp with a DC supply that can deliver 5A at 50V is perfect even though that supply meets its' specifications. In your computer chip, to ensure that a logic gate triggers when expected.  As those systems get smaller and faster, the models have become more and more sophisticated to satisfy basic functional needs.  
Separating the upper and lower sections of the loudspeaker crossover from each other (requires separate terminals) will allow parallel runs from the amp to the speaker. The most basic factor is that, all things being equal two sets of cables will halve the series contribution of the wire to the system signal disturbance. This can also be achieved with a shorter run of wire.
The bi-wire improvement will mostly come about because the high current woofer load distortions will no longer generate a voltage disturbance signal at the tweeter since they will not be present at the high terminals or at the amp terminals (assuming the amp is not a tube type with high output impedence). I could beat this to death but a simple circuit analysis using non-ideal elements will show this. So much for the assertion that there is no science, or more accurately, technical basis. Many people learn basic I=E/R and think they understand everything. A loudspeaker is not a simple 8 ohm resistor, a cable is not equivalent to a small resistance, and I=E/R are not frequency independent.  
Years ago, I used to argue vehemently, as an arrogant, self-assured electrical engineer, that power cords couldn't make a difference because the amp converted (rectified and filtered) AC into DC.  My model must have been too simple since after finally trying different power cords and conditioners my reaction was: "No freaking way!". I've since come to see that the amount of benefit of a power cord depends on the application. I've found the biggest improvements with high power class A amps which are always generating large current pulses, and for relatively noisy components like DACs etc. My preamp was not very sensitive to the power cord since it utilized a sophisticated DC bus followed by a 400 Hz AC system which was then reconverted to DC.

If it is easy, do it. What can it hurt to find out and know for yourself? If it were a PITA to do, then I would have the same concerns your OP had. But since it would be an easy experiment, do it and report back. You know that further contributions to this thread will continue in the same vein with those advocating one or the other side. (as usual). Have you EVER seen a subject when it comes to our hobby where there is a reliable and absolute consensus? At best these questions are an academic exercise. At worst they are contentious arguments.

I have come to realize that all the opinions, reviews, theories, experiments, discussions in the world do not trump my own experiences. I am the only person who knows what I like and want. And it is EXPENSIVE and time consuming to go through this journey. But your particular situation here is not all that expensive nor time consuming to try. In fact, it could have been done in the time it took this thread to peter out. 

And my reading reviews has done more harm than good for me in the outlay of money department.  I really have not improved the sound of my stereo since 1984, even though I have been through over a hundred components. I have circled back to a very similar system I had back in 1984 much to my satisfaction. If only I had just left it alone. 

danvignau

No I did not add speaker posts , have not modified the cross over boards .
 The question was does bi-wiring inprove the sound ?
I should have asked if bi-cabling or 2 seperate runs of cable sound better ? especially if you used one cable for the positive and the other for the negative posts  ( have any of you tried this set up ? )

My speakers have 2 crossover boards ,
one for the bass and the mid/tweeter is seperated on one board ,
sharing the speaker wire input , easy splitting for bi-wiring .

Well tabonuco  could you reword that in English please? 

Here we go again with insecurity of. The audiophile 
This remind me of the series of Tarzan and the witch doctor does the electrician are certified?does he pass
the board?come on this is the kind of person of the bunch that think his ability is unquestionable with no knowledge what is doing and the worse is trust your
gear to them to perform barbaric repair enough lets get to the point first the dedicated ac circuits from the
rest of the of your home is to cancel noise from the appliance from your house like frog air cond microwave is audible and that you could hear in your
hi end gear take an oscilloscope and test your ac outlets and detect for noise in the line of voltage and see the wave is with noises in different Fq that one 
number two copper and silver and gold are the best conductor and have their advantage in the spectrum 
I use Siemens breaker and ac outlets and solid core
copper and a separate Ground rod isolated for protection and keep safe your gear and also improve 
your sound quality of your system if you have an apéndice remove you go to the surgeon not to the witch doctor unless your electrician use trump desinfectant to clear your your ac anomalies go ahead I am a electrical eng with 50 years experience 
and also an audiophile when you hire somebody be sure is a certified profesional not a street barber

Now bi-amping is a completely different animal. I can get into that. 

I believe RVs argument is something along the lines of having separate wires for the highs and the lows helps prevent back EMF from the large magnet in the woofer from interfering as much with the high frequencies. This I learned from a biwire question at one of his seminars. I suggest asking him directly.

RE: Whip-Shaw's post quoting Vandersteen.  If you bi-wire doesn't the wire carrying the signal to the bass driver carry the FULL range of the frequency to the bass driver but the treble frequencies are filtered out by the crossover before it gets to the driver?

And doesn't the wire coming from the amp to the tweeter carry the FULL range of frequencies to the crossover and then the low frequencies get filtered out before it gets to the tweeter?    

I do not think bi-wiring or even bi-amping eliminates the crossover does it? It simply directs the signal to different sections of the crossover. One goes to the low pass filter, the other to the high pass filter.  The full frequency of the signal is delivered through EACH of the two wires only to be filtered after it gets to the crossovers.   So the bass frequencies STILL interfere with the treble frequencies in each wire, as they would if only one wire was used.  CHANGE MY MIND. 

Maybe getting higher quality jumpers rather than using the typically crappy factory ones would be a factor too. 

For those of you who state that you use both sets of speakers posts, because the speaker was designed for bi-wiring:  NO IT WAS NOT!  It was desigined for bi-amping.  Bi-amping separates the current going to the woofers, and to the mid/tweeets.  Bi-ampig does not.  However, See my post from Vandersteen for resistive effects from woofer impedence.  i would like opinions on this, because it makes sense to me, despite my Hokum Meter.

     Despite the fact that I have always thought bi-wiring is hokum, I am offering info from Vandersteen; however, the company does point out that the only advantage is from getting the magnetic field generated in the the woofer wires away from the mid/tweet wires, due to resistance differences. i.e. it can only work if you separate the wires from each other:   "The crossovers in Vandersteen bi-wirable speakers are engineered with completely separate high-pass and low-pass sections. The bass inputs pass low-frequencies to the woofers, but become more and more resistive at higher frequencies. The treble inputs pass high-frequencies to the midrange and tweeter, but become more and more resistive at low-frequencies. The output from the amplifier always takes the path of least resistance so deep bass frequencies go to the bass input (Low impedance at low-frequencies) rather than to the treble inputs (High impedance at low frequencies). For the same reason, treble frequencies go to the treble input (Low impedance at high-frequencies) rather than to the bass inputs (High impedance at high-frequencies). At the actual crossover frequency, the output from the amplifier would be divided equally between the two inputs as they would both have the same impedance at that frequency. Because of the different reflected impedances of the cables, the crossover between the woofer and midrange actually occurs at the wire ends where they connect to the amplifier."     Caveat Emptor.
  

vair68robert.  So!  You disconnected the speaker posts, modified the crossover, added more speaker posts, yet you are convinced that the difference you think you hear is the bi-wiring.  Hmmm.

I run an old pair of Acoustat 1100's which are bi-amped and bi-wired as the demands of the woofer modules and panels are quite different.  It did make a difference.

I think it will change the sound, whether or not that improves the sound is subjective.

I have Larsen 6.2s run with an Exogal power DAC, Comet and Ion. I hear absolutely no difference between bi-wire and single speaker cable, and in fact one reviewer of the speakers said his sounded better with the single wire. I did keep the bi-wires on, just in case....

I think it depends on speakers ... I have had Quad Kef, Falcon LS3, PMC and now Tannoy. 

The biggest difference is the Tannoy speakers where it was immediately clear almost like jumping up a model. On the rest it has been marginal and sometimes pretending to yourself it made a huge difference. 
So borrow some wire - try and then decide.

Out of interest my Harbeths had one terminal as it is something the designer thought worked and there was definitely a fashion for biwire speakers at one point that wasnt always sonically warranted except buyers demanded it and manufacturers supplied ....

@gasboses 
Blue and chrome go together - 'chrome to get you home!'

@bigkidz   Peter external shotgun biwire AQ Type 6 headed your way :-) I am guessing Tuesday you should have them to listen to :-))))) music is the gig - have fun

I think there are potential downsides of biwiring. The speaker designer (assuming they are competent) went to great pains to develop a crossover that effectively splits the signal between drivers, assuming the SAME SIGNAL on the inputs to the two parts of the crossover. Anything that might result in a different signal on the two input connections is going to defeat this design effort. 

Now, I suppose, if you prefer the sound from two separate connections to the speaker, then that's really all that counts. But if you are asking a theoretical question, I'd stick with a single connection to the speaker unless it was specific engineered to use an active crossover with biamping.

With one set of binding posts on the speaker end, in theory, unless you are modifying the connections to/thru the crossover, the only benefit would be thicker wire.  If the speaker has 2 sets of binding posts, and they give you a choice of paths through the crossover, then some changed response is possible.  However, dedicating copper to frequency bands leads to less than optimal use of the copper.  At some points in time the base may need a lot of energy from the amp and it cannot make use of the lower resistance that a common thicker wire would provide.

I don't know the exact model, but for the progression, it is one of the rare times I would agree with Paul McGowan, as it is the same story I have heard from truly old-time audiophiles (my dad included) and matched the stories I read. First DIY, with SS base and tube for the mid/highs, and then speaker companies started to build the capability in. It never really took off, but it was a differentiator between cheap and "good".

Which loudspeaker manufacturer first put biwire binding posts on the back of their speakers?  Anybody know?

The whole reason speakers started to have 2 sets of terminals was not for bi-wiring, but for bi-amping. Current starvation in the output devices, increased IM in the output stage from non-linear effects at higher currents, and IM from modulation of the power supply from bass frequencies is eliminated from the amplifier that only supplies the typically much lower current mids/highs. Voltage induced distortion effects at other stages in the amplifier will still occur of course, but traditionally this has been less of an issue.


There is no technical justification for "systems with properly designed passive crossovers make poor candidates for bi-amping", since the benefits are not for the speaker, they are for improvements in amplification. For amplifiers with lower THD at high power (typically because of high distortion near the 0-crossing), the high frequency amplifier will increase in IM, but will reduce in THD by riding on the high voltage bass signal. That same amp with an input passive filter for the highs can have sonically unacceptable distortion characteristics on real music.

Systems designed to be bi-amped typically do not have internal crossovers. Systems with properly designed passive crossovers make poor candidates for bi-amping.

The parallel loading of the additional drivers on the amplifier is almost always negative (see above) if your goal is accuracy and un-colored sound. Bi-Wiring only adds a very small amount of isolation, basically the impedance of one set of wires, which with competent wires is very little. Bi-Amping completely electrically (and back EMF) decouples the two driver sets.

driver response varies in combination with the driving amplifier and the parallel loads of the additional drivers.

My Reference power amps don’t have emitter resistors :-) and certainly no global feedback...

@bigkidz i am in hotel California for now..... seattle when I can travel safely, since you have the lovely 5a I will send them to you shipping gratis- just listen and enjoy :-)