why do people feel the need to buy expensive cable
I have tried expensive cables and one's moderately priced. I would say there were some differences but I can't actually say the expensive cables were better. IMHO I believe a lot of people buy expensive cables because they don't actual trust their ears and are afraid of making a mistake. They figure the expensive cables are better for the fact they cost more. If you have a difference of opinion or share the same thoughts, I would like to hear about it.
just for clarification, I don't use the $42k Tara Grandmaster speaker cables that Audiolabyrinth refers to here;
.....Mikelavigne's Grandmaster original model speaker cable's retail for 42,000.00 8ft, his system may be better for such cable's......
my speaker cables are Evolution Acoustics TRSC (Triple Run Speaker Cables) which are the best speaker cables I have heard. approximately $8-9k for an 8 foot pair. not cheap but not crazy. the one step down model of the Evolution Acoustics speaker cables (double run) replaced Transparent Audio Opus MM speaker cables ($34k) in my system. then i upgraded to the EA TRSC i now use. I'm very happy with what i hear from those speaker cables.
for me the price is not the issue. it is performance.
what I do use now is the Tara Labs Grandmaster Evolution 1.5m XLR with the HFX which does list for $31k. i bought it used and got a great deal. and what it did rocked my world enough that i ordered another set of the same cables new but in a 2 meter RCA length. it lists for approximately that same $31k. it should arrive this next week. i would never have even thought about buying those if i had not heard with they did in my system. it's astonishing and they will screw your head up if you listen to them, they are that good.
10 years ago i had Von Schweikert VR9SE speakers and vertically bi-amped them using 2 sets of Transparent Audio Opus MM speaker cables. that was 2 x $34k list price at that time. it sounded amazing.
@zephyr24069 well said I agree. It's a balancing test between equipment and cables. You should definitely get the best equipment you can first. Then get the proper cable match but your cables should cost more than your gear. My system is very niche because I have a KR audio va900 and gato fm6 with a resonessence Dsd mirus dac and a e.a.r. Acute CD player. It's a system that demands really good cabling but I don't have to have the top of top to get what I want sound wise but I would not place under performing cables and cords on it. The cables make up 20% of the cost of my system. I'm not going past that. I think that's a good place to be however sometimes it system synergy and recording quality of your music that you mainly listen to. We have to be mindful. For example for guys who have those 50k plus systems you are at a point where you are seeking maximum performance and you are willing to overpay again! We all are overpaying! But it's your money and your ears. I hate when people tell me what to do with my own money! Audio is big business now so you get the best you can can at a price you can afford and live with it. Don't point to others who can and will do more simply because you can't or choose not to
Mitch2, your observation is again another proof that most of money paid for luxury and looks just like Prada or Luxotica. The value is still somewhere in $50 range.
There is much enthusiasm over this topic and I find interesting the apparent need to pick "sides" and for one side to be right and the other wrong. My beliefs are based on my system and experience, and I don't want to prescribe what works for others. I do believe that with "luxury" items, such as boats, exotic or classic cars, swimming pools, high end homes, etc. the higher the price range, the more money there is to be made and the higher the mark-up on stuff.
Perhaps manufacturers of high-end/expensive products need a higher mark-up per item because they don't have the "mass market" buying their goods in large volumes. They also have a reputation for luxury, quality and exclusiveness to uphold since it is part of the overall marketing strategy and what makes those products desirable...not everyone can own it. We have all heard about products that "didn't make it" because they were underpriced for the targeted market. There are examples of high prices with any luxury item so if someone who can afford it, wants to spend boat-loads of money on cables, for whatever reason, I would rather hear about how those cables improved their system than to read a bunch of arguing about the percent markup and whether it was stupid or smart to purchase the cables in the first place.
Another observation, it would be nice for people posting in a thread like this to take the time to post a virtual system, so readers can understand the context of their opinions relative to the gear they listen to.
OK, so I didn't pay retail...not even close. That's why I pulled the trigger! I traded in my old cables and got 60% off from my dealer so I only paid...drum roll....$570:) Now that's sweet on my ears!!
I never felt the need to buy the most expensive cables just because they were that, quite to the contrary over the last 20 years, and still today. I've been through more than 10 brands that I can remember from entry level to the best my ears could hear and that I could afford at that point in time (not always where I am now price-wise, I can assure you...), then sell everything off, go to another brand I liked the sound of, usually laterally or a few levels down from where I was to experiment and learn while I was looking for 'the sound' I was targeting but I've never put a cable purchase in front of a move for the next/right amp, pre-amp, DAC, Transport or speaker.
MikeL, Dave_b, Melbguy1, Jmc, and others who have put objective thoughts into the thread....."thank you!"
Dave_b: Great thoughts on the 'sweet spot' in manufacturers' line up...definitely agree with you there.
20 years ago and many days since, I was and in some ways still am the ultimate skeptic regarding cable and component purchases; I don't think the most expensive is necessarily the best by any means. I also still hope for that ‘magic brand’ of cables, components, etc…that would give me what i hear today while costing far less, and give me the ability to simplify and cost-conserve/recoup on the cost side of the equation; that hope aside, I’ve not found it yet but i still read alot weekly looking for it :-)
I also think there is ridiculous mark-up in high-end audio by many, not all manufacturers and I also believe there are ridiculous levels of 'hype' regarding manufacturers who only seem to bring out more and more price threshold-breaking gear, speakers, cables, etc...versus developing that sweet spot in the line to the fullest extent for the more frequently occurring purchasers. There is also little value to the sycophantic following that often permeates certain threads regarding 'the next uber offering...' that also happens to be the most expensive option and when you read closely enough, you’ll note that price is noted far more than actual detailed facts about that component, speaker or cable’s performance.
All this may be hard to believe I know given the cost of my system as it exists today which is alot to some, and far from alot, or the highest, to others. It's all the result of a lot of hard work and experimentation, questioning and doubting, taking steps back to re-think and question, scrimping, saving, etc...over the years. It, and the cables in it are alot farther in so many ways including price, than I thought I'd ever be able to, or willing to go to, in order that I would achieve the sound I was looking for.
The most important topic is how things sound when it is all said and done and is the owner happy; that's relative for each person and in some ways it's none of anyone's damned business (;-) where they choose to spend their money . Put another way, what does it matter what somebody else spends anyway????? Last I checked, noone is going to work for someone else/me, dealing with the bullsh^&, stress, expectations, etc.. and sending them/me money for their audio, car, house/other purchases & bills…where I come from that means the first person has little/nothing to say about how that money is spent by the person who actually has worked hard to make it.
Ah…grateful for a nice calm & peaceful Sunday morning in the audio world :-) !!! :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
I think you should have cables relative to what you spend on your other parts of your system. I have about 9k worth of cables. However, my system components retail at about 32k. For me that's something that's about right. I wouldn't out put 32k worth of cables on 9k worth of equipment. To me that doesn't make sense. However, that just my opinion. If you like your system and that's what works for you go right ahead. You should do whatever sounds good to you. I used to minimize the importance of good cabling till I heard really good cabling. I never wanted to be a guy who set back and said "Wow look at what he spent on cables!" He is a grown man who made his own money. Don't get mad at another man because he drives a Mercedes and you are still driving a pacer! Then you justify driving a pacer because you don't have the drive to go get a better car or you choose to save your money to waste on something else! We want the best audio sound we can get. Everybody has their own ceilings.
One thing I forgot to mention. A few years ago I borrowed some different interconnects and speaker cables from the cable company. (They are the one's that have the lending library) the cables I borrowed were 2 and 3 times more expensive than what I currently owned. I listened to them every night for a week. My conclusion was they were different, not better than what I had. Buying them would of been a sideways move. I guess that's why I'm not sold on expensive cables. I think it makes much more sense to put the money into better components or speakers.
11-14-15: Audiolabyrinth My system has $24,000.00 8ft speaker cable's, Mikelavigne's Grandmaster original It's not bad, but they worth $99 max so you've overpaid $23,991.00
Believe me I've tried doing without MIT cables..."I can't live...if living means without you!" They are the difference between listening and being involved with the music.
11-14-15: Audiolabyrinth My system has $24,000.00 8ft speaker cable's...it was worth the price of admission for me
I'm sorry, but that is ridiculous. Keith how can you possibly expect to hear what $24k worth of speaker cables can do with your 2nd hand JBL L7 speakers?? The last pair on US Audio Mart sold for $655.00 in good condition. Any serious audiophile would rather pair $655 cables with $24k speakers. The problem with these debates is you get doofuses giving opinions and leading inexperienced members astray.
It really not a need. It's a want and if you want it and you got the money you can buy it. If you have a great system you do what sounds right to you. For some people they have not been exposed to amazing sound quality. I remember when I started this hobby it was some years before I heard amazing sound. The late David Baskin of designaudiovideo in whitehouse Texas had an amazing listening room. He had great equipment and cablesIt was expensive but outwordly amazing. Rick Schultz of high fidelity had an amazing voxativ system with great cables. When you get to a certain point sound quality is supreme. Your ear becomes trained to want steak not spam. I can never get those kind of systems but I will not put substandard cabling in my really good system. I'm not justifying my own cable expenditures but I can't go back once I have heard realism and musicality and some cables do that for the owners. I think ultimately some people can do it and others can't or don't want to. Those who don't maybe they need to! Lol. Then they will understand!
You say the cable retails at 15k. Even if I had the money to buy such expensive cables I would never do it. I could not stand the thought of someone making such a large profit margin off my hard earned money. The cables probably cost the manufacturer under 1000.00 to make.
Now with audio components it's not as bad. The mark up from manufacturer to retail is about 5 times. I can live with that.
My system has $24,000.00 8ft speaker cable's, Mikelavigne's Grandmaster original model speaker cable's retail for 42,000.00 8ft, his system may be better for such cable's, however, it was worth the price of admission for me, I bet it was for mikelavigne, ask him, chances are, he is happy with his decision,enjoy the music.
Cables can only do so much. Finding the right pairing for your speakers can be a pain. I've just come to the realization that an old pair of cables I had lying around were perfect for my speakers.
I stated something to that effect earlier on but feel the need to expand a bit on it. My newish speakers took a while to sound right. First, they needed to break in and I was impatient. So tweak away I did with new stands, footers, going through all my old cables, and buying some new ones. I should have been patient.
Not keeping a constant in place made for some maddening results. I thought I had it all dialed in. It was only on a lark when I had some spare time that I dug out some old cables and tried one and it worked like magic.
What I'm trying to say here is that it very well may be that there's not THAT much difference in some well thought out cable design and it's your speakers that you should take a close, hard look at. The potential that lay in my new speakers was dormant until I keyed in on the right cables.
if someone posts that they have an expensive Watch collection, or Wine collection, everyone has a positive reaction. it's cool. even a sailboat or toy car.
but if someone who has worked hard to assemble the best possible audio system finds that one of the only avenues left to push a little farther down the road is with an 'uber' set of cables then it's fair game to bash them.
in their minds, it's not 'cool enough' or 'accepted' so the haters come out. in their minds they cannot accept the value equation like those other indulgent uses for discretionary cash so might as well take shots.
11-13-15: Calvinj Why do others feel the need to ask why? Hmmmm? Watching another man's pockets! Oh no it's worse at Hong another man's cables!!!
There are 2 simple answers to OP question. You can ask this same question about any commodity, cars, clothing ... Either the purchase is a status symbol or superior performance.
This thread is more a reflection of the OP and members that criticize how others spend their money. They lack the resources sitting outside the fence so will criticize others to justify their own situation.
"IMPORTANT: Use the best available speaker wires and interconnects. Audio Research cannot emphasize this enough. As better components and systems are developed, it becomes increasingly important to avoid the limitations of inferior system interconnections."
From the owner's manual for Model Reference 210, among others in their line. If your cables are performing underneath your system's capability, then you are not hearing your system. Build them or buy them--you cannot scrimp on cords and cables. Don't listen to the Home Depot, zip wire, lamp cord, power strip adherents--unless you want their mid-fi sound.
11-13-15: Czarivey Thanks, I'd rather listen to $5m Strad of Joshua Bell Wires should not sound by any possible means and if they do than something is wrong.
Oh well i'll put my Jorma Statements up for sale & place an order on Joshua Bell wire without delay..
It really makes me laugh HAAARD folks. I read the story of Joshua Bell who spent his last penny to become an owner of Stradivarius just because he loved playing it and loved this sound and he couldn't let it to some dumb billioneaire... PURE RESPECT to maestro!!! Keep going with your good sounding wires LMFAO!
Zd I really feel the pain of your personal experience. No child should have to endure such a personal humiliation. An example of the basis for temperance of those who would question or worse, perhaps judge? Oh the trials of audiophiles, what a most challenging journey we subject ourselves to endure.
They usually sound better. How much better ? It depends. Maybe not what most people would pay. But it's up to you. If it's worth it to your ears. If you got great equipment feed it the best you can. If you can afford it do it. If you can't don't get mad at the people who can afford it and choose to do it. Don't count another man's pockets.
"Also you need to be naive enough to spend substantially more than actually needed. Scenic statement "This is how much $$$$$ I can spend on wires" is completely foolish."
I disagree, although I understand your point. But once you get used to a certain level of income, its extremely hard to do with any less. Here's just one tragic example from my youth. There were a couple of years when my dad couldn't afford a pilot and had to fly himself. Sure, it was our own private jet. But do you have any idea how ashamed we all were to see our father fly his own plane?
As you can see, there's just a little more to all this than being naive. I'm scarred to this day just from that one incident. There's more, but I just don't have the stomach for it right now.
Julian Hirsch changed his name and faked his death, to escape Stereo Review. He pops up, on these audio websites often, with various aliases, and still can't hear any differences in ANYTHING! Just imagine, if everything actually sounded alike, how much those of us with good auditory acuity could save.
Tara Labs. ps: Don't ever listen to Jorma Statement sc's...you might need a diaper because of how good they sound ;) Melbguy1... Thanks, I'd rather listen to $5m Strad of Joshua Bell Wires should not sound by any possible means and if they do than something is wrong.
Czarivey, I wouldn't say all high end cables are way over-priced, though yes there are many companies which make huge profits. I'll avoid naming names as that has ended up in more than one major dust up before. Suffice to say, Jorma Design imho is one of the better value high end cable manufacturers, especially when compared to Nordost and Captain Cobalt's favourite wire, Tara Labs. ps: Don't ever listen to Jorma Statement sc's...you might need a diaper because of how good they sound ;)
10-29-15: Ebm Some people have money to buy the best. Ebm (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
10-29-15: Zd542 "10-29-15: Ebm Some people have money to buy the best."
And everyone hates us for it, don't they? I say, there's plenty of money out there and if you don't have any its your own fault. Stop crying like a bunch of babies. Zd542 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)
Also you need to be naive enough to spend substantially more than actually needed. Scenic statement "This is how much $$$$$ I can spend on wires" is completely foolish.
Why would anyone HATE naive and foolish seriously? They give away money for nothing or for someone who sells. I believe that any business owner or seller must LOVE and respect them indeed! They give a great opportunity to invest $20...30 in parts and sell that wire for thousand$ if not more... There are moms who buy diapers $125 each and I don't see why anyone have to hate them too.
Jmcgrogan2 and Kijanki, if it's on the radio now I don't blame you for not liking it. I'll bet I could play you some current Country music you would like, stuff that doesn't get played. There is a substantial and thriving "alternative" Country music community that produces a lot of great stuff. Check out the No Depression website. ND covers "Americana" artists like Buddy Miller, Jim Lauderdale, Marty Stuart, and hundreds of others.
I agree Dave. In the Jorma range, the Unity cables to me represent the sweet spot in their range, though I would go for the Origo pc's as they are quite a bit better than the Unity model.
The older I get and the more cables I try, the middle of the pack for a manufacturer is usually the sweet spot. That said, I also have found that the only significant improvements I have heard in my systems have been with MIT and Transparent. I favor MIT overall.
The "I just can't stand country music, and that's about all she wants to listen to" blues.....
My wife and I like a lot of teh same kinds of music best, but she is not as adventurous as me. Whenever I play King Crimson, it makes her want to climb the wall. And most modern day Flaming Lips, Motorhead, etc. is right out.
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