I suspect it's a matter of low frequency feedback, otherwise known as rumble. Some of the low frequency rumble may be actually coming from certain discs. I have experienced both types of rumble sources in the past until I upgraded to a phono preamp with a rumble filter.
If you have a rumble filter in your preamp then the source is definitely coming from some sort of mechanical feedback that the rumble filter can't totally filter out.
Unfortunately this sort of audible issue can be tricky to troubleshoot, if the rumble filter doesn't work. Looks like most everyone agrees on a "rumble filter" |
Some really interesting information from several members. |
Subsonic frequencies have direct effect on the hormonal system, they affect the biorhythm of the internal organs, vision, balance. They are an essential part of perceiving the hall acoustics of a concert hall.
If it's part of the recording, then you hit the real deal. The ability to recreate those frequencies literally is a paradigm shift.
If it happens only on certain records (which have that frequency range recorded), you have arrived home.
In case it's on every record then there's an issue. |
Miller is right in this matter, you need better feets..I like Solid tech feets of silence ( there is plenty of other doing the same thing) isonoe is OK but spring based solutions are better . Then it is the question of the tonearm mounted on 1200gr !!! I removed it from my deck after 2 months and fitted audiomods series 6 arm , that's that ...
No need for rumble filter anymore..
This is what I did with my 1200gr , but this is your ocean to navigate ...
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Lots of helpful thoughts, but so far no-one has asked the right question.
Do the bass driver cones flap the same all the time, whatever you play, or do they flap in line with the timing and intensity of the bass in the music.
If the former then don't listen to Miller who says your home is being destroyed by invisible vibrations - stand on the floor in your room in silence - can you feel them? Probably not. Yes, you need to look at your turntable rig.
Try playing an unmodulated LP if you have one - i.e with a groove but no music. Do you get the flapping now?
You may need a rumble filter or to clean and re-oil the bearing. Or to check the bearings in your arm can move freely but do not have any jitter. Or to check the tightness of the cartridge fixings (go easy here though). Or to check the arm and cartridge are well matched and not causing resonance. Or to upgrade your turntable and arm.
But if the flapping changes in time with the music then I am inclined to say this is just your analogue system doing its job. You say you like the sound better than your digital sources, so what's to worry about?
Enjoy. |
Rumble (sub-sonic) in any system is not good unless it is designed for it. I have spent considerable time at Masterdisk in NYC. Previously owned by Bob Ludwig and currently by Scott Hull. They would always check for rumble in the master disk they cut. The turntable is in a different room and here are the speakers they use: Hartley 24" subs which will play down to 7hz. They don't flutter but you can sure feel it! https://reverb.com/item/4252846-hartley-sw-24-speakers-bob-ludwig-mastering-subwoofersThis has been a public service announcement. BTW, I own a pair of Hartley Reference which is the same cabinet and woofers along with a full complement of drivers. Regards, barts |
Get a KAB rumble filter.
Or move the turntable to a different room.
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I forgot to mention one other major factor that makes this problem worse,
the RIAA curve. When a lacquer is cut the high frequencies are boosted and the low frequencies are cut. On playback the high frequencies are cut which reduces high frequency record noise just like Dolby noise reduction. Unfortunately, low frequencies are boosted making low frequency record noise worse. Only 3 dB means the woofer cones move twice as far. At higher volumes that becomes a huge problem. IMHO subsonic filters are mandatory for people who like to play above 80 dB. |
I think dynamic and crusty have very good ideas about what might be going on. I was an early fan of transmission line woofers. Specifically I bought Irving M Fried (IMF) speakers in the early 1970s, because I thought they had unusually natural low bass response, and they were darn good above those frequencies as well. When I was once in the presence of IMF himself, he pontificated that all preamplifiers should have a subsonic filter built-in. This is because the transmission line is a ported design in which the woofer is completely free at low frequencies. And on occasion my woofers iused to pump visibly in those days. I ignored it. I still use transmission line woofers to support the low bass response of my Beveridge 2SW speaker panels. (80Hz cutoff). The TL cabinets I am using I built in something like 1971. Because I am aware of this pumping tendency, I am often staring at the KEF B139 woofers built into my transmission lines, while I am listening to music. They are pretty much static at all times, visually, from my listening seat. No pumping has been observed yet. Could be because this system is in my basement, with concrete flooring over earth, or it could be because my turntables are well isolated and quiet. And I don’t mess with warped LPs unless the warp is minuscule and I love the particular recording. |
Hello,
Do you own an old mouse pad you can cut up or bubble wrap you can put under the feet? This should tell you if it is a vibration problem from the supporting table or base you are using. I have heard this was a frequency problem. Do you have a different cart/ head shell you can try really quick. If not can you switch to another cart to see if it is a frequency problem?
If it is and you like the sound of the cart then you will need to buy the device to remove the rumble. If it were the excursion of the woofer it would happen while streaming too. I had this happen to me when I used an aftermarket head shell. If yours is removable you might try a different head shell. That should change the frequency. I hope this helped. |
I had this exact problem about which I posted a month or 2 ago.
In my case, not only did I have the wild woofer pumping, but also not enough gain from my phono stage.
I tried isolation first, no improvement.
Then I tried a much better and more expensive turntable, arm, cartridge solution. Still, the woofer pumping persisted.
Ultimately, I fixed the issue with a new photo stage, both with more gain AND a rumble filter. The latter is inaudible BTW, other than resolving the woofer dance while spinning vinyl.
Hope this helps! |
Well if the OP's tt is not broken, and if moving the tt in his listening room or improving tt isolation do not have any effect, up or down, and if his LPs are not warped, then he does need a subsonic filter, preferably a good one.
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Another word for rumble filter is subsonic filter. I have a Technics 1200G and this problem was eliminated by activating the subsonic filter on my phono stage.
It is the nature of the vinyl format to have this rumble.
Not sure it helped in any way but I kept the subsonic filter off when breaking in my Tannoys.
I also ran my Salk speakers for 10 years with the subsonic filter off. Nothing bad ever happened. Woofers were always ’excited’ during the space between LP tracks.
For me, activating the filter didn’t seem to help/hurt the sonics in any real way.
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It is the nature of the vinyl format to have this rumble. Never seen anything like that on any of my high efficient drivers using vinyl only format for over 25 years without any subsonic filers! Not sure it helped in any way but I kept the subsonic filter off when breaking in my Tannoys. Right, it’s absolutely useless with a proper drivers like Tannoy Dual Concentric (I have 15 inch and 8 inch Tannoy speakers ) or any other full range drivers like Zu and related. |
...or try a sealed box woofer
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@chakster, it helps if you have a driver that actually makes bass and have an amplifier with the power to make it happen. But, no bass is better than bad bass. This is a solution we used for decades until decent sub bass drivers can along in the early 80s. You use subwoofers for two reasons, to make real bass below 80 Hz and to take that part of the spectrum away from your main speakers because it screws them up.
It was a tough sell back in the days of analog bass management. Now it is a no brainer. |
I use professional MAIN studio monitors that is capable to reproduce bass from 38Hz - this is more than enough for me (and I don’t listen to digital) @mijostyn You can check the manual for my Tannoy "15 DMT mkII here. Lots of nice records mixed and mastered on these monitors. Those are 200w with 101 dB SPL and I drive them with 1.5w single ended Yamamoto A-08s with NOS 45 tubes from the 1940s. I could lose hearing using those Tannoy with 100w solid state amp. I also respect neighbors above and below my flat in the same building :) Sold my SUB a long time ago and never looked back. SUB is for home cinema or for bookshelf speakers, SUB is for digital source. Basically SUB can cause too many problems in a small and medium size room, the wavelength of low frequency is so long that you need a HUGE room or very special treatment. The lower you are going the more problems you create (standing waves), people just don’t understand it. I’ve come to high efficient full range drivers and low power amps a long time ago. Happy with Tannoy Dual Concentric drivers, especially 15 inch drivers. No ruble with vinyl (with my speakers), never. P.S. I'm just trying to say that vinyl is not always a rumble. |
As others already pointed out, the physically visible woofer pumping is typically seen when the woofer is mounted in a ported or vented cabinet that does not backload the woofer at extreme low frequencies. You’d never see it with acoustic suspension type speakers for example. ( I don’t know about Zu speaker designs or how your Tannoys are enclosed.)
incidentally we’re seated in the Kennedy Center, and my first live post covid concert is about to commence.
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Just how loud is your music turned up when you experience the issue with your woofers? I also have Treo’s and have never had that problem. Just to confirm I just played some bass heavy Bob Marley hitting over 95 dB that I rarely do with no movement on the bass drivers.
The speakers are on a wood floor with spikes and BDR pads as Vandersteen recommends. My turntable is on a very heavy solid walnut wall unit and a Symposium platform and the Subsonic filter is off on my phono stage. No rumble detected. |
This is what sub-sonic filters are for. |
sounds to me like there may be a very low frequency feedback loop. you may not hear it at the distance or volume you are listening. the structure may be responding and resonating 20 - 30 feet away. your mechanical pick up on the cartridge, tonearm and turntable may be picking it up and there's the loop. Streaming has no mechanical pick up so it would not be as likely to create the loop. if you see long, consistent, excursions of your woofer there's a clue. It's probably not very good for the surrounds of you woofer especially if it's long excursions. people don't hear 20hz very well. it has to be in the 70dB range for most people to even pick it up. you can almost see very low frequencies better on your woofer since the cycles are slow enough. |
Is this some kind of feedback loop causing this?
Yes. Use a sturdier furniture piece, add slab of granite under the turntable. Consider upgrading the feet on your TT to something with more effective isolation. Your problem will disappear. |
We have seen this problem hundreds of times over the decades. The problem is NOT in your speakers. We believe as many others here it is compliance problem. The simple solution is to use a rumble filter, if you really want to find out what the problem is here is what we suggest. Take just your turntable to a completely different system and play it with several different albums, if it still has a rumble problem then the problem is in your turntable, if not it could be your phono pre or interconnects. If the problem exists in your turntable, first check your tonearm for problems like loose bearing or places where it maybe hanging up along it's arch also check your setup parameters on your cartridge to make sure they are correct ( We always suggest using a test LP on any setup) If the problem persists change the cartridge to one that is more compliant to your tonearm (check your setup again) If the problem still exists then it would have to be in your tonearm. Many times we had to change the tonearm to eliminate the problem, as strange as it may seem there are times when we changed the tonearm with the exact same model tonearm and it solved the problem, we refer to those pieces of equipment as having "spooks" in them, we ship all those pieces to the X Files. Good turntable isolation cannot be understated and definitely improves the quality of vinyl playback but we have placed turntables on solid concrete platforms and they still had rumble problems, how can that be? Don't know but it happened. More X files stuff. |
Two questions for arrowhead: (1) By what mechanism do you think a phono pre or a pair of ICs can cause rumble (except in the case where the phono stage has very low bass frequency extension, enabling it to transmit rumble frequencies to the downstream components, but that's where the rumble or subsonic filter works)? And (2) why do you focus on the tonearm and not mention the platter bearing as a source of rumble? I do agree it's a nice idea to take the TT to another system and determine whether rumble follows along with it. I had suggested inserting a known good TT into the OP's system, for the same reason.
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As a MAGICO owner never had this problem. |
I purchased the KAB rumble filter. As soon as it comes in I will post my findings. Thanks all for the enlightening discussion. |
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lewm:
I don't know by what mechanism a phono pre or IC's can cause rumble problems the electronic wizards can give you dozens of explanations sometimes they can even find the reason for the problems other times it is all a mystery to them. All I can tell you is this, we have seen some weird and unexplainable things in the years we have been in audio. Once a manufacturer claimed it was a cracked IC board that caused the rumble problem. We have seen phono preamps and IC's that could pickup CB, airline and police broadcasts, electronic noise from passing vehicles and just recently we had one that was able to pickup noise from a flying drone, so picking up noises that can cause rumble is not out of the question. My job is to find the problems and fix them not explain why they happened. I can tell you from experience there have been times when replacing a phono pre or IC's solved a rumble problem. You are correct about considering a platter bearing as a source of a rumble problem many times it is, my bad for not mentioning it. I mentioned the Technics tonearm because we have had so many problems and compatibility issues with them in the past.
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Microphonics are real. I used to have a phonograph preamp that you could smack and have it ring through the speakers, but the very very first problem you face is the cartridge itself. It’s essentially a microphone with a needle and the LP acting as a diaphragm.
The microphonic pick up of modern electronics however tends to be very small to none, and much higher in frequency.
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You better fix it before they blow..... |
@limomangus I haven't been listening to my vinyl rig since I discovered the issue. Streaming only. |
Write or call Richard Vandersteen. He is very responsive and has your answer. |
OP chat w Rutan….and as I recall RV is visiting him…today ? Jim |
You won’t see the woofers dancing if they are in an enclosure that constrains motion at subsonic frequencies. You also won’t see them dancing if the preamplifier or amplifier in the upstream chain cannot pass subsonic frequencies, e.g., if you use a transformer coupled tube amplifier or if you have engaged a subsonic filter on your preamplifier. In either of those two cases, the woofers are protected from damage AND you won’t experience the audio distortion associated with the woofer dance. However, if rumble is present due to some sort of feedback (acoustic mechanical or electrical) at the source, these palliative measures do not prevent or cure it. In any system, the presence of rumble does not always cause the woofer dance. Audionoobie, if you have done the experiment of borrowing another TT to see whether the problem persists, and if the problem does persist, then I give up,... you need a rumble/subsonic filter, best inserted between your phono stage and your linestage.
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I was experiencing very noticeable noise from my Technics SP-1000R table. Mostly an echo type reverberation when walking near the table etc. Tapping on the stand or plinth was like playing a drum. Ordered the Insolation feet from this shop for it and I just screwed them in. An immediately noticeable silence. Going to listen to a few records to make sure it hasn't killed the sound completely, but as far as decoupling goes they're awesome.
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It is the nature of the vinyl format to have this rumble.
This statement is misleading. The LP itself should be quite free of rumble.
I purchased the KAB rumble filter.
@audionoobie It sounds to me as if you have a mismatch between the arm and cartridge.
My woofers at home are 15" and the speakers are flat to 20Hz. I never have problems with the woofers flopping about. But I am careful to make sure the cartridge isn’t too compliant for the mass of the arm. If it is, as the cartridge negotiates the minor ups and downs of the LP surface, the mass of the arm will take more time to catch up with the cartridge. This causes a lot of low frequency output from the cartridge and its stuff that isn’t on the LP surface.
You can either reduce the mass of the tonearm or decrease the compliance of the cartridge. The former might be done by replacing hardware holding the cartridge in place (or going with a lighter cartridge); the latter is done by replacing the cartridge.
If you have the cartridge/arm combo right, your electronics can have bandwidth down to 1 or 2Hz and you’ll have no troubles with your woofers.
The introduction of the rumble filter will have an audible consequence (depending on how well your speakers play bass); by introducing phase shift, there will be a loss of bass impact. Its better if you can get the arm/cartridge combo correct.
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My woofers at home are 15" and the speakers are flat to 20Hz. I never have problems with the woofers flopping about. But I am careful to make sure the cartridge isn’t too compliant for the mass of the arm. If it is, as the cartridge negotiates the minor ups and downs of the LP surface, the mass of the arm will take more time to catch up with the cartridge. This causes a lot of low frequency output from the cartridge and its stuff that isn’t on the LP surface.
You can either reduce the mass of the tonearm or decrease the compliance of the cartridge. The former might be done by replacing hardware holding the cartridge in place (or going with a lighter cartridge); the latter is done by replacing the cartridge.
Is this part of the logic behind the Dynavector dv507 arm having a pivot configuration which minimizes vertical moving mass?
Isolation issues can also greatly impact woofer flapping. I had occasional problems when I was using a poor Lovan rack (stackable modules, not very rigid). They completely went away with an upgrade to CMS Maxxum - still using the same kind of table, speakers, cartridge, arm, amps, same positioning, etc.
15" Tannoy drivers here so when the woofers flap at all it is VERY easy to see. Floor here is suspended wood, but old world commercial construction - not nearly as compliant as modern residential suspended floors. Still not like a concrete slab either, though.
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Hi all,
OP just checking back in. The KAB rumble filter resolved the issue.
It would be nice to establish root cause, but for now I'm happy.
Speaking of compliance, does anyone know if there would be a compliance issue with my AT VM760SLC mounted on the stock Technics SL1200GR arm?
I also may consider purchasing the after market footers KAB sells on their site.
Thanks for all the great discussion and happy holidays to all.
-Joe |
@audionoobie , That should be fine. I do not think the "footers" will add much if anything. Better to have the table on a heavy solid platform.
@atmasphere , should be and are are two separate issues. I have records the rumble from a poorly maintained lathe is obnoxious.
The woofer flapping issue is prevalent among people with small woofers that are tuned to go as low as possible. They have to move a lot farther to produce the same results as a large woofer. I have never seen the owner of a 15" woofer complain of this. It is always 10" or below and always with turntables. With many amps going clear down to DC surface irregularities in the vinyl will cause the woofers to flap. They do so in rhythm with the spinning record. This is not necessarily will loud volumes either. But if you do turn it up the problem can become obnoxious. If subwoofers are used and boosted 5 dB like mine you can easily bottom the subwoofer out. Interesting sound for sure. Once digitized it is a simple matter to program in a subsonic filter with a very steep slope sidestepping the issue altogether. If you use subwoofers and play loud using your turntable as the source a subsonic filter is virtually mandatory.
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@audionoobie If you're thinking about upgrading the feet, I recommend the feet from MNPCTECH -
They're a little pricey, but it was probably the best upgrade I have made to my SL 1200 MK2.
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"The woofer flapping issue is prevalent among people with small woofers that are tuned to go as low as possible. They have to move a lot farther to produce the same results as a large woofer." Only if the bass response is artificially boosted, as in your system. Otherwise, the smaller woofer will just roll off at a higher frequency than a bigger woofer. It’s even possible in some cases that the smaller woofer will be less likely to dance due to upstream perturbation, both because the smaller woofer can't respond and because of the enclosure damping, as in an acoustic suspension cabinet. This was mentioned earlier.
"Once digitized it is a simple matter to program in a subsonic filter with a very steep slope sidestepping the issue altogether." There is no free lunch in audio; fiddling with the signal in the digital domain will have a cost in SQ that some would not tolerate and others would find OK. Anyway, if one wants a subwoofer system, one can build an active low pass filter with a 24-db/octave slope out of discrete components that work in the analog domain, with potentially less of a sonic penalty. 24db/octave should be sufficient for cleaning up the higher frequencies.
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Dear @audionoobie : " anyone know if there would be a compliance issue with my AT VM760SLC mounted on the stock Technics SL1200GR arm? ""
No, you have not is inside the normal resonance frequency range. You can improve the quality reproduced sound with better headshell wires connectors and you can try too a different headshell build material than the stock one but you are safe about cartridge/tonearm issues.
Good that the KAB filter works for you.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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It is always 10" or below and always with turntables. With many amps going clear down to DC surface irregularities in the vinyl will cause the woofers to flap.
@mijostyn Back in the old days I used to run some Fried G2s which had a 10" IIRC and had no woofer issues. But you are correct- smaller drivers will flop about without much provocation.
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Dear @lewm : You are rigth in all your last post.
R.
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@atmasphere , I was not so fortunate. The 10" drivers in my AR 2ax's use to flop around plenty.
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You can make or buy isolation platforms for speakers, too
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Glad the OP solved the problem. I ditched my analog outfit years ago but before I did I had a hum that resisted multiple approaches to eliminate until I bought a "hum buster" or some such thing that apparently isolated the hum and turned it into light.
As a confirmed digital lover I have to say there was a. real entertainment value to reading some of the posts in this thread. I particularly liked the suggestion about putting silly putty on an expensive tonearm/cart configuration
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