Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?
I recently ordered high end speaker, power amp, and preamp to be installed in couple more weeks. So the next search are interconnect and speaker cable. After challenging the dealer and 3 of my so called audiophile friends, I think the only reason I would buy expensive cable is for its appearance to match with the high end gears but not for sound performance. I personally found out that $5K cable vs $10 cable are no difference, at least not to our ears. Prior to this, I was totally believe that cable makes a difference but not after this and reading few articles online.
Here is how I found out.
After the purchase of my system, I went to another dealer to ask for cable opinion (because the original dealer doesn't carry the brand I want) and once I told him my gears, he suggested me the high end expensive cable ranging from $5 - 10K pair, depending on length. He also suggested the minimum length must be 8-12ft. If longer than 12ft, I should upgrade to even more expensive series. So I challenged him that if he can show me the difference, I would purchase all 7 AQ Redwood cables from him.
It's a blind test and I would connect 3 different cables - 1 is the Audioquest Redwood, 1 is Cardas Audio Clear, and 1 my own generic 14AWG about 7ft. Same gears, same source, same song..... he started saying the first cable sound much better, wide, deep, bla...bla...bla......and second is decently good...bla...bla...bla.. and the last one sounded crappy and bla...bla...bla... BUT THE REALITY, I NEVER CHANGED THE CABLE, its the same 14AWG cable. I didn't disclosed and move on to second test. I told him I connected audioquest redwood but actually 14AWG and he started to praise the sound quality and next one I am connected the 14awg but actually is Redwood and he started to give negative comment. WOW!!!! Just blew me right off.
I did the same test with 3 of my audiophile friends and they all have difference inputs but no one really got it right. Especially the part where I use same generic 14awg cable and they all start to give different feedback!!!
SO WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? OR I AM THE LAST PERSON TO FIND OUT THAT EXPENSIVE CABLE JUST A RIP OFF?
The number of times this same theme of anti-audiophile cables/prices has appeared over the last 1-2 years alone is staggering. There is some expensive cable that is way overpriced and a rip-off but there are legitimate entries in the high-end cable world at respectable prices that bring a personality/performance/improvement coefficient to a system that cannot be beat, or at least not with cheap wire from a commodity source. Deaf men can hear the effects of the legitimate products out there over cheap wire for systems that truly deserve that type of investment.
Regarding the statements and implications that attempt to paint a broad stroke characterization of all audiophiles who spend on higher cost cables as weak-minded, pliable, easily fooled, etc...and somehow enforce your view of the world and your agenda as a truth that must apply to all is simply not true. From my side I can personally recount 3 times in the last 11 years alone where (1) I ripped out an entire loom of a highly-thought of brand of expensive power cords, went back to stock cords and determined the stock cords were more natural sounding and that as the loom of pcs had grown, a mistake had been made that resulted in accumulated house sound. Same with 2 different iterations of a combination of speaker cables and interconnects from 2 different high-end cable manufacturers at various points. Each time I either returned to stock PCs or to very low-cost power cords, interconnects and speaker cables. There were things the low cost approach cables did not give me that I determined to live without and many that I did hear that I liked.
I've also cut into or unwrapped more than a few cables in my time to see what's inside and realize there are a few brands out there that are simply "F-O-S!!!" and pulling one over on many of us music lovers.
I only 'went back to spend more ' because I happened to be given an interconnect, a speaker cable and a power cord from one manufacturer that are not inexpensive, but not amongst the strata of audio cables that simply cannot explain their prices in terms of any reasonable markup on cost of goods plus cost of manufacture (and R&D). I stayed with the brand in question as they survived real A/B testing (double-blind) and truly deliver what they say with a high-end, resolving system and a good pair of ears on the receiving end.
I'm not here to give examples of the "B.S." cable choices I've experienced, nor am I going to give the names of the brands that I ripped out of the system or the higher end brand I wound up going moving to in order to promote them.
In short, if you like the sound of commodity wire in your systems, more power to you and I am truly happy for you. Also, all this debate and all the ones like it aside, Happy New Year to everyone!
The cables I have span a small amount from around $100 to just over $500, including the discounts for discontinued lines. I have solid core copper, solid core silver, silver plated copper, stranded and tinned stranded, Litz, most with terminations and a few with bare ends.
Just with that motley assortment I can tell the differences and from that I can tell that spending more can get you more. They all have great bang for the buck so I'm satisfied, even content not to spend more. That's a pittance to what others have spent so I guess there's value in that. :-)
What matters most in speaker cable is that you have the proper gauge for the type of power you are delivering to your speakers. The greater distance and power deliver will demand a higher gauge. P / IE What the expensive speaker wire companies claim is that the capacitive and inductive reactance along the conductor is figured to give minimal degradation of the sound and also have a lower resistance. Alos the Purity of the conductor. (Which lowers resistance) That is the claim. I reality, the human ear is sensitive to a point. Everyone has an opinion on what great sound is. Some people like a velvet mid-range to their music and the next guy might not care as long as the highs are crisp. Some like resounding bass. I have been an audio enthusiast for over 45 years. During that time I have heard many high end systems ranging from $1,000 for a pre amp and power amp to the $10,000 Levensen mono blocks which are cheap in this forum. I have to say I have never heard anything better than the levenson. I have heard Conrad Johnson, Krell, MacIntosh, and the old Crown amps / pre amps. The Crowns were the poor mans MacIntosh, close but not quite. To get better than a $1,000 power amp pre-amp, it would take about 4 times the cost. One you reach the Levenson Quality, then it is opinion and taste. The Speaker wire as long as it was 12 gauge no longer than 15 ft was good. I use 10 gauge at 15ft and it does great! Go by what you hear, that is what matters, not the hype!
Cats can easily be herded, NoNoise. Just show them shiney, bouncy, visually appealing things that cost way more than barn mice...and smell like they might taste better, and they will jump toward them. Not knowing (or caring) that the decrepid ole barn mouse was, in all meaningful ways, a better deal.
Also, "doing things on the cheap" as you say, sometimes makes you the smartest guy in the room. It is always a measure of value.
Maybe the conversation (debate?) should lessen the price delta between beer pocket magnet wire and champagne filigree cables to something more sensible.
There will always be an argument for doing things on the cheap and those who are advocates of that argument will never see the advantages of better cabling and their inherent costs. Yes, there is a limit to what is reasonable but that too, is in the eyes (ears and pocketbook) of the beholder.
Do whatever you like and stop trying to herd cats.
Lots of variables, as Randy-11 and others have pointed out.
How does one quantify "better" give that some speaker wires will sound merely different than others? For example, you run Monoprice wire and are pleased, but decide to go ahead, for one reason or another, and purchase much more expensive brand "X" wires. You then discover that they sound different, (hopefully better) how do you measure your return on investment?
In other words, if Monoprice wire costs $50 and brand X super-duper wire costs $5000, is brand X worth $4950 more? Are you happier? Do you enjoy listening to your stereo system that much more? Would you have been ultimately better of if you'd invested the $4950 into T-Bills or some other conservative financial growth vehicle?
Do you even care, given this hobby can be so whacky?
Interesting discussion. I have heard others dispute the differences between high and mid level cables, but never $5k vs $10 wire. There are only three variables here: ears, equipment and cables. I agree with some of the earlier comments in this thread: there are folks who don't have the ears for this hobby. I also know from experience that some equipement is not that transparent/neutral. Some manufacturers intentionally "voice" their gear to produce a certain sound that distinquishes and sells their brand. I found such equipment is relatively insensitve to both cabling as well as source material since the "signature sound" of the components dominate the signal path.
Truly neutral gear, which is tranparent to source and devoid of a particular sonic signature, is very revealling of everything that is in or otherwise influences the signal path.
In terms of cables, I had Acoustic Zen speaker cables and auditioned several brands, including Synergistic Research CTS, before settling on SR Atmosphere Level 4. Admittedly, the differences between some SC's were less noticable than others. However, the elevation in each of the sonic elements of sound that the Level 4 provided was very noticable. Even the audio sceptic in our family (my wife) was quick to notice and she didn't even know I had replaced the Zen's.
So many wasted keystrokes by the Stereo Review/Julian Hirsch/Dunning-Kruger effect crew. Any wise man should understand that human senses vary greatly in acuity, recognize their own limitations, but- NOT assume everyone else is thus limited.
there is a number of issues to be considered when talking about cables. yes, 14AWG can be used but is it transporting all frequencies properly or is it acting as a cheap 'tone control' for an expensive system? how 'fast' are the cables as high transmission (or propagation) speed results in fast transients and high level of details. transmission speed depends on dielectric used and geometry of cables and differences can be quite significant. does your environment needs shielding - how 'noisy' it is and are there issues with static electricity, etc. some people spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on 'cable lifters' and similar gadgets instead of getting shielded cables to start with. these are just some of the issues 'good' cable manufacturers have to deal with, and this is not to say there aren't inflated prices and gimmicks in this industry. look for good science and good reviews on manufacturer's sites.
I replaced Tara labs Rsc air one speaker cables on my bass amps, MSRP was $1,700. Replaced with Tara Labs The One, MSRP $5,000 - they blew the crap out of the prior cables. A deaf man could hear it.
dynaquest410 posts12-31-2016 7:59amAs an aside, Note that if you HAVE spent mega-bucks on interconnects or speaker cables, there is not a chance in hell that you (on this forum) would EVER change you mind that THAT purchase must have made your system sound better - even if you cannot hear it. It is called the audio placebo effect. If you put out the big-bucks on cables, a better sub a DAC or just about any component, once you get it installed your system WILL sound better.
Crazy-expensive cabeling is proof positive that, on some products, if you overcharge you will sell more to the duped masses.
Some time ago, I replaced the Kimber (speaker) cables that came with a slightly used pair of B&W 803's with a 20 dollar set of Monoprice cables. I had no way to do a "blind" A/B test but after I switched them out those 803's continued to sweetly sing...no difference that I could tell.
(1) THEY WORK, BUT THEY ARE NOT FOR EVERYBODY AND THE REST OF THE SYSTEM IS PRESUMED TO BE IN LINE WITH THE ULTRA-HIGH-END STRATA OF THE CABLE .
You could easily spend six figures to connect all your gear with these cables, so the big question is how much improvement do they realistically provide? They've garnered glowing reviews in the audiophile press, but I contend that any improvements are most noticeable when the rest of the system is similarly ultra-high-end—anything less will drown the effect of the cables in other problems. But if you've got the audiophile itch—and the scratch to match—I'm willing to bet you can't do better than Odin.
(2) THEIR HISTORY IS UNIQUE.
Nordost came to the field of audio cabling in a rather odd way. The company was founded in hard science -- developing and manufacturing cabling for ultra-high-precision aerospace, aviation and medical applications. Somewhere along the line a clever Jack decided that the same technology just might be the proverbial cat’s meow when applied to high-end audio. Whoever he was, he was right, and the company now makes cables for every wallet -- from the bargain-basement Best Buy shopper to the enthusiast who owns a penthouse overlooking Central Park or Malibu Beach.
(3) YES THEY ARE EXPENSIVE.
There are reasons for Odin's extreme cost. There is a lot of very high-purity metal in these surprisingly heavy wires, and a lot of it is silver.
-- Odin is also VERY hard to make.
-- The micron-level precision tolerances necessitated by the design result in a crazy-high scrap rate.
-- There are also nearly ten years of research and development in this product, and that investment of man hours has to be recouped.
So Spenrock are you saying that two 24 guage conductors combined for the + and two 24 guage conductors combined for the - have the same power handling capabilities as14 guage wire? I'm calling bull$#!@ on that comparison
I like that you recommend using a good quality drum recording. I have a recording of Tony Manaisian's that's an extremely well done 16 bit demo using no equalization that does exactly what you describe. It's a jazz combo with lots of percussion techniques. It's now one of my go to recordings to evaluate my system.
Here is a simple experiment for those who don't believe speaker cables make a difference (or those who are unsure how much). 1) Find a telephone or cat cable that you are not using and willing to destroy. Take it apart so that you have two sets of twisted pairs (i.e. 4 single wires). 2) Connect them to replace your speaker cables using a single wire for each connection. Best to use the coloured wires as positive and the white wires as negative so you don't mix them up. 3) Play music. 4) Now remove your new telephone wire speaker cables and replace them with what you think are the best speaker cables you have in the house. 5) Play music.
The difference should be dramatic and very clearly demonstrate that "cables" do make a difference. If you cannot easily hear a difference, you need to either change your system (or the weak link in your system) or replace your ears. I would expect that somewhere over 90% of the people on this forum would find the difference between cables stark and obvious. It is simple physics, the telephone wire will be unable to properly carry the audio signal, particularly the low frequencies.
Now that we have established that cables absolutely DO make a difference, the next question is how much difference is there between proper basic cables and the "expensive" stuff. It is the real question that we are asking.
From my experience, one of the easiest ways to compare is to use a well recorded drum track. Perhaps use a Japanese Taiko drum album or similar Chinese drums. Make sure they include the big, deep sounding drums with plenty of chance to listen to the drum harmonics between beats. Its easy to listen for the following:
A) After a drum strike, those big drums should have harmonics that last several seconds, depending on recording and drums, at least 4-5 seconds. B) Listen to the big drums in particular. Do they sound like flabby farts, or can you visualize how tight the drum skins are. With a good system (especially full-range), the difference between cables will be clearly evident.
With cables that are a good match for your system, you will instantly see the drums as much as hear them. It will be very engaging, you will be eagerly anticipating the next strike. If the cables do not perform well, the drums will sound sloppy and you will quickly get bored. It's like they forgot to tighten the drum skins.
It is actually quite amazing how much difference the cables can make. It can really transform a good, but non musical system into a magical sounding system.
As many others here have said, the price of the cables has only some influence on the quality. The most important aspect is system matching. As a one time cable agnostic, I wasted much time and money on components, when my speaker cables were the weak link all along. Until I replaced them with something better, I was only spinning my wheels. When I first discovered the difference it was revelatory!
Happy New Year All, I really wish 14AWG alone could get you there. If thats what sounds good to you then stick with it. It would definately would have made my life alot easier and less expensive. It took me a while to wrap my mind about spending $$$ for cables. These companies I have found to be worth the squeeze - investment. www.hb-cable-design.com/ www.stage3concepts.com/ www.tonarm.ch/
Put things in perspective Sautan a ounce of silver is just shy of $16.00 per ounce.Nordost's flagship wires start at $19,999 for a one meter pair and they are silver plated with the most plating than the mere $5k line.
Having expensive equipment is not a guarantee of better sound for an individual. I have replaced expensive cables with less expensive cables because of interaction between components once the new cabling was in the system. Recently, I was going to replace my DAC but tried the AntiCables Level 5 speaker cables. Those cables gave me the sound which I was seeking and saved me 50% of the cost for replacing my present DAC. Judging the sound of audio equipment is a very personal choice. I have heard a $300k system that had no "wow" factor for me, but for someone else, it was probably a mind-blower. Many manufacturers offer a 30 day trial period so I highly recommend that sautan904 use that method to compare various cabling options to find what appeals to his ears based upon his system components.
Having expensive equipment is not a guarantee of better sound for an individual. I have replaced expensive cables with less expensive cables because of interaction between components once the new cabling was in the system. Recently, I was going to replace my DAC but tried the AntiCables Level 5 speaker cables. Those cables gave me the sound which I was seeking and saved me 50% of the cost for replacing my present DAC. Judging the sound of audio equipment is a very personal choice. I have heard a $300k system that had no "wow" factor for me, but for someone else, it was probably a mind-blower. Many manufacturers offer a 30 day trial period so I highly recommend that sautan904 use that method to compare various cabling options to find what appeals to his ears.
Hello all, I’m recusing myself from this discussion. I actually use no cables, interconnects or power cords, a solution that neatly avoids the myriad pitfalls associated with ANY cables and power cords. So, I’m leaving this particular thread to those with dogs in this fight. My battery based solution also neatly avoids the myriad issues related to house AC power, AC ground, fuses, big ol capacitors and toxic transformers, etc. Best of luck to all.
Jafant, It will be a good year indeed if Audiolatrine continues to stick to his shameless shilling ’blog’ as Taralabs describe it & stay out of intelligent discussions like this ;)
Even at the level of my old Jorma Prime sc’s ($18k, 2.0mtrs pair) I immediately noticed a substantial improvement upgrading to Jorma Statement sc’s ($28k, 2.0mtrs pair). So yes I think to a certain extent you get what you pay for.
...late feedback to dlcockrum's comment 12/29 "What drugs are you on?"...
None, frankly....quite sober, perhaps unfortunately. Anyone who can't tolerate some humour with regard to the subject's extremism does get my apologies for my admittedly extreme response and attempt at poking the 'funnybone'. If I missed and you felt poked in the eyes, well gee whiz.
Speaking of drugs, it all seems to edge into the 'placebo effect'. "If I do this, it's bound to make it better." Magnets? Propping the cables off the floor with stands? Exotic materials, combined in esoteric ways? Really?!
There's similar products that come and go out there. Ultrasonic insect repellers....products that promise amazing mileage if attached to your car....copper infused socks that'll make you feel light on your feet...
I just watch it all come 'n go, and remember P.T. Barnum's dictum. And Robin William's reprise of it....
If you think it makes it better, well, OK. Just not in my experience. I can hear the difference between speakers....cables, no. Maybe I'm just tone deaf or have some serious defect in my hearing. Or maybe I just haven't had enough of the Kool-Aid yet....
What ever makes you happy is cool. Have at it.... I'm happy with my basic 'junk'. I thought that was the point...being happy, listening to the music as opposed to the equipment. I guess I'm just a simpleton in the midst of the anointed.
Ignorance is bliss. The last election cycle just proved that. And it seems to be epidemic as to how divided we're becoming, and the lamentable lack of tolerance on differences in one's opinions vs. another's is becoming the new standard. "My way or the highway." You want a friend? Get a pet.
I'm in the pro audio concert END of things... you can bet your bones speaker cables make a difference. Esp in the LFs. Of course runs are longer and power amp ratings are much higher.
In home hi-fi/audiophile-land, I've definitely noticed and have made upgrade differences mainly with interconnects and AC power quality. Speaker cables not so much -- especially w short runs.
Years ago I tried the 'blind test' with some interconnects with my wife, who knew my system, but by no means has a golden ear. I chose her as the average listener (and because women generally have more sensitive ears esp in the HF range). I was given these 1M $1200 balanced XLR Transparent Audio interconnect cables to try from a hi-fi dealer w time correction lumps on them. So I put them to the test vs my custom-made relatively inexpensive 1M $150 Monster M1000i cables. We spend about an hour swapping back and forth. We both DEFINITLY noticed a difference (SACD head end/Emm Labs/Speakers Genelec). Lo and behold (without knowing which was which) she liked the Monster cable at a fraction of the price. I too preferred the Monster across all classical, rock n roll, electronic and acoustic tracks.
The discovery was was quite an eye-opener. First that we COULD definitely tell the difference. Second that the more expen$ive cables didn't necessarily translate to better quality -- at least for us. Lasty, you can imagine she (and I) were both pleasantly relieved that the high priced cables didn't sound better. Especially since I have a 6-channel (spec) hi-res system! Whew.
I'd say if your're looking for ways to improve your system, look first to your room and your speaker placement/treatment, etc. In my professional studio experience (as a mix engineer) this will yield the highest level of improvement per dollar spent. Lots of great DIY sound trap articles out there including one by Ethan Wiener's 'Build a Better Bass Trap" I highly recommend.
The other way to improve you system sound is proper AC to your gear. I made a SIGNIFICANT improvement by running dedicated 10-Guage AC power (220 in my case) directly from my home breaker panel. The most noticeable difference was in the low frequency transients. The biggest shocker of all however was the investment in a pro-grade conditioner. And by pro-grade, I don't mean Moster or Furman. I'm talking recording/mastering studio grade. Equitech is the finest in my experience. It was downright scary what a difference this made! The soundstage opened up big time and the detail in the music was glaringing improved (Model 5Q).
Finally I'd say the best thing to do is to trust your ears. Use familiar content and isolate as much as you can the gear you're elaluating. Simply put. Listen for yourself!
islandsound 1 posts IMO you are correct it's a ripoff. Really the only way I could see it making a difference is if you had a ridiculous sound system to go with the expensive cables, but really even then I highly doubt you'd hear a difference. The human ear just isn't capable and everyones ears are different. Now I would argue that test equipment might be able to decent the sonic differences. This topic has been discussed to length so many times but I always like to see people talk about it.
I bet Mr. Spock could hear the difference.
There are many perfectly good reasons why some people can't hear differences between cables. Shall we explore them?
IMO you are correct it's a ripoff. Really the only way I could see it making a difference is if you had a ridiculous sound system to go with the expensive cables, but really even then I highly doubt you'd hear a difference. The human ear just isn't capable and everyones ears are different. Now I would argue that test equipment might be able to decent the sonic differences. This topic has been discussed to length so many times but I always like to see people talk about it.
Okay, dill. Just want to clear up that I never offered any property at any time. In fact, just the opposite: "Fire Bad." I detest those types of posts.
One needs to read or reread the OP post and think about it. Do you really think that chain of events actually happened? If you do, contact Dave about his property. Also, notice the original poster has been silent since his 4th or last post, 3 1/2 hours after his first, FIVE days ago. This is classic troll behavior and has worked as designed. Maybe 200 posts will be reached before the next year on this fascinating topic!
@213runnin "Another thread where a cable hater tricks somebody and then goes online to brag about it."
The OP has tricked everyone that responded to take a position for either side, believers and non-believers. It’s obvious that the OP and his responses are bogus. I still find it hard to believe so many fell into his trap.
@dlcockrum Dave, I find it quite ironic that grubbs joined the forum the next day after this thread started and this is his first response. Coming up out of the earth seems to cause an unusual odor.
@dlcockrum So Dave, about that ocean front property in Arizona, can you PM me some pics, and name your price? I'm interested for sure, but am curious as to the average summer snow levels. Will a shovel suffice, or will I need a plow truck?? Will you toss in some of that awesome Radio Shack 12 ga. if we close the deal?
Ah yes. Another thread where a cable hater tricks somebody and then goes online to brag about it. Threads like this are a waste of time. Nobody on either side is going to change their minds.
The actual test conducted is unclear, but it seems that the OP wanted the salesperson to listen and compare the cables, and if he could detect differences, then the OP would spend another 10 grand on cables. Meanwhile, he lied to the person and tricked him.
If one really wants to test speaker cables, etc., all you have to do is connect the right channel with your cheapo cables and the left with the expensive stuff, then hear for yourself.
Other issues may prevent performance levels, as mentioned above, but generally speaking the differences will present themselves. Whether one can hear them is another thing, not all people hear or process sound waves the same. People who can't even sing a not on key may not be trustworthy judges of sound quality.
Since it's too late to edit my post, I'd like to correct the gauge of the Tempo Electric speaker wire. It's actually 14 gauge wire in a 9 gauge jacket.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
