Funny, after all these years, people still say things like "you wasted all that money on cables". There are still those who believe cables don't make a difference. I once did marketing for a cable line I consider to be about the best-Stealth Audio Cables. One CES, I walked the rooms with the designer/owner, Serguei Timachev. He carried a pair of his then new Indra interconnects. Going from room to room he asked the room runners to replace their source to preamp IC with the Indra. There was not one that was not completely flabbergasted and said that the Indras blew away what they were using. That was the skyrocketing of Indra and Stealth. The Indra became one of the best reviewed cables ever. Serguei now makes the Sakra-an IC that blows away the Indra! I don't understand why some still do not value cables as much as I.
You can blindtest some little change....You cannot blindtest total transformation because it is plain for anybody to see(hear)...It is no more useful for anybody ....
Blindtest is there to validate (marketting practice) or invalidate (debunkers) some small variation like with a cable...
No one blindtest the acoustic of the same room before treatment and after it.,..
No one blindtest the electrical grid of a house before or after it is controlled...
No one blindtest the audio system before and after his many resonant parts are under controls, even if it is easier to perform than for the 2 others embeddings...
My point is many changes are so evident than blindtesting them has no interest, except for those who sell some product and those who debunk some product...
You just raised pedantic to a whole new level. I have done fully controlled double blind testing in research lab environments, and more simplistic single blind testing too many times to count .... which is one times more blind than I expect most people commenting on this thread have ever done.
It's hard to put bias into a test process that involves nothing more than swapping cables. Great thing about that is you rarely even need to level balance, and not level balancing would increase the detection threshold not reduce it.
I am not a "casual observer".
For example, you’ve made it clear that you don’t think the
differences between competent cables is audible. You’ve poisoned the
well by conveying that to a test subject; you’ve given him a reason
("power of suggestion") to find no difference.
This is wishful thinking. Remember what is being tested. What is being tested is that the person making the claim of (usually) a readily apparent audible difference is able to actually perceive in a blind situation the difference. No more. No less. Your "poisoning" actually does not fit typical psychological reactions. Normally when a persons beliefs are challenged, they will work extra hard to prove those beliefs, not fold like a wet blanket.
Let me type this slowly so that it is totally clear. I have run many blind tests with other people as the listeners. If I have a bias it is meaningless as I was not the test subject.
You’ve just invalided every blind test that you have ever conducted. That’s because a properly designed and conducted blind test must also account for and negate the bias of the test designer and proctors.
For example, you’ve made it clear that you don’t think the differences between competent cables is audible. You’ve poisoned the well by conveying that to a test subject; you’ve given him a reason ("power of suggestion") to find no difference.
And this is emblematic of many who clamor for others to conduct blind tests. Not all blind tests are valid, and conducting a valid test is much more work than it might appear to the casual observer, both for the conductors of the test as well as for the subjects.
If my fault that my OP comments about company owners and others who made/make their living on being able to hear differences between components helped to devolve this otherwise civil Forum discussion into personal mud slinging, I am sorry. Surely most on the Forum can and have recognized and respected the wise words and posts of Ralph Karsten of Atma-Sphere. A true gentleman and voice of decades as a professional in Audio. I don’t wish to draw Ralph into this checkered thread. Only wish to point out that there is a significant difference between us hobbyists and the professionals. Speaking generally, professionals in the Audio Industry must have an educated and highly refined “ear”. When I spoke of Audio professionals being flabbergasted by the performance of one particular IC over another, I only wanted to point out the general professional perspective on this subject.
Look at you, dandy, boxer, you guys en-mass are making many more posts than I am. How does one develop such an incredible lack of self awareness and self reflection. As well, you seem to lack reading comprehension or only hear what you want to hear.
Let me type this slowly so that it is totally clear. I have run many blind tests with other people as the listeners. If I have a bias it is meaningless as I was not the test subject. Your argument is akin to you not being able to tell two cables apart and blaming me for the result.
Correct boxer, the whole idea of this hobby is the listening. It’s not the read whichever measurements that some one seems necessary, as even the real experts will say that listening is still needed. In the end I want to hear something I enjoy, that’s what I, and others spend their money for. Not because Robert, David, or whatever his name is, decides what I should be listening to. Anyone trying that hard to convince people of something is highly suspect by nature of their desperation to convince. Robert sometimes when it seems the world is against you, maybe it really is you. If the world is trying to tell you the earth is not flat, maybe it’s for a reason. But really I don’t think any of us care either way what you believe. The problem is that you’re trying way too hard to make us believe what you want us to believe. Why can’t you just let us have our ideas, as I don’t disagree that you don’t hear, wether it’s because you don’t have the skill, you won’t hear because you are biased, or simply truly just don’t hear the differences. I suspect one of the first two because I believe most that simply don’t hear are fine with it for those of us who do, as we are with them not hearing a difference. I won’t be trying to get them to spend money on cables that would bring no value to them, and I’ll continue to discuss different cables with those who do see the value in them, and everyone can be happy.
Please understand that many (most?) audiophiles use there ears as a guide to what sounds best in there system(s). They do that regardless of measurements telling them there shouldn’t be a difference. That is the crux of it, & it ends up as a circular argument as those that cannot tell the difference tell those that do it’s simply bias, placebo, waste of money, wishful thinking, whatever.
I can tell you wholeheartedly that cables & tweaks make my system shine. Does it sound good without them? Yes... but it sounds a lot better with them in place.
It is not an argument....
It is better, it is a complete case....
:)
i could tell the same tale for sure for the judge.....
Except i will add for example that there could or would not be a difference if someone add a piece of shungite on top of the amplifier transformer ( that will compress the sound and degrade it at this spot) or if someone add a piece of regular quartz at the same spot(that will increase too much mainly the high frequencies degrading also the sound in some opposite way); but there will be a big audible difference between these 2 .... I learned to play with these differences to reach the potential of my audio system with many other experiments in another different road also....
In relation with the kind of speakers you have, moving the chair will not change the sound in the same way, or on the same scale, that changing "some" cable or making the little experiment i just suggest...Distorting the imaging for example is very different than compressing the sound even if these may be linked....
I will add that my little experiment is more than most argument, because reproducible....Measurable? in theory yes....In practice probably,but i am in no way an engineer....And i cannot wait for them to transform my own audio system at peanuts costs for the better.... Homemade experiments are the road....Listening with the ears and the body is the way....
« Miracles are scientific fact incognito or in disguise»-A Russian clown
P.S. i will repeat here that, like roberttdid advise, it is not a good idea for a beginner to invest big money on cables, there is much false marketing ploys here, and i will add that there is way more spectacular way to imporove the system mostly linked to the 3 embeddings of any audio system...Upgrading for a better design in an electronic component will give also better improvement than just changing a cable.... But for someone with a top of the world system already, rightly embed, some cable can make big differences, for most people ,s system not so much....
Heck, maybe that is because moving your chair 1 inch will make a lot bigger difference than changing most cables .... but someone who makes a cable challenge and then does not follow through on it, or who posts a marketing blurb about feedback may not know that.
"What is hilarious is between you, whatshisname, dandy2, ISO, etc. you still can’t make a reasonable argument between all of you. All you have are personal insults."
To be fair david, you have called everyone on that list ignorant. So there is that...
Please understand that many (most?) audiophiles use there ears as a guide to what sounds best in there system(s). They do that regardless of measurements telling them there shouldn't be a difference. That is the crux of it, & it ends up as a circular argument as those that cannot tell the difference tell those that do it's simply bias, placebo, waste of money, wishful thinking, whatever.
I can tell you wholeheartedly that cables & tweaks make my system shine. Does it sound good without them? Yes... but it sounds a lot better with them in place.
You have no idea what that means. You renege on your challenges and run away when you lose. Look at the 3 of you ... trying to gang up like little school yard bullies. You make me laugh. whatshisname even sounds like a school yard bully. Excellent company you guys are keeping with each other.
Gee ... 4, 5 people dog-piling (rather ineffectively).
boxer12, your lack of self reflection is ....
What is hilarious is between you, whatshisname, dandy2, ISO, etc. you still can’t make a reasonable argument between all of you. All you have are personal insults.
Watch ...whatshisname will respond with an insult to this, likely dandy2 ...
Look how fast my point was proven. I must say boxer12, you run in good company. Don't hold it against him though, I understand he has always felt inadequate. That is why he lashes out.
thyname758 posts07-13-2020 11:54pmDid you fix the Internet yet fat boy? How is life in your mommy’s basement? 😂😂
Oh come on AtDavid. I figured out very quickly that “roberttdid” was banned “AtDavid” with a new handle. If one were to simply read a couple of posts from both “names”, would quickly know it’s one and the same person. Why did you have to change your name though?
Nope, no cats, but perhaps a chicken? @thyname, are you incapable of using the search function? I am, and I would never have searched for your interaction with other people here, but your incessant attacks, made me curious. I must say, you are rather notorious.
I am so happy that I believe what I see and hear, rather than listen to
others who try to say I should deny those things. That I must live by
their rules because they define the rules for others, and doing
otherwise is denying the truth, according to them. They must define what
truth is for us, some of them seem very desperate to make us see thus
truth, as if their truth will unravel if not. We should be the sheeple
to their temple of truth. I’m happy with just being me, not sure why
they’re so insistent we must be them
Lots of reasons, but its like with power cords, the reasons why they make a difference matter nowhere near as much to us as the fact they do make a difference. The designer on the other hand, in order to come up with better designs it does usually help to understand why these things work. So in the same way it really doesn't matter why some of these people act the way they do. Why matters more to the psychoanalyst or whoever may be trying to see if they can get them to work better. For us the only thing that matters is they do not in fact work very well.
It can reach a point where everyone has tried pretty much everything they can think of, and the choice is either learn to be a psychoanalyst or move on to putting your time and energy to where it might actually do some good. In other words if they can't be persuaded to come around, or maybe aren't even mentally capable of understanding the need, then sometimes the best thing we have left is to politely ignore and move on.
It is well known that bullies call other people bullies when people stand up to them. Given that there are at least 4 people piling on, it is pretty obvious who the bullies are now isn’t it.
You know what is really funny @thyname, I would know absolutely nothing about you if you didn’t claim I was someone else but you did, so that made me think they probably made you look bad too.
Now it all makes sense. I know exactly who you are. You are that dude that runs back to Audio Subjective every time someone dares to say cables are not as important as you believe. People have also accused you of making another forum toxic, and making that forum yet another forum that is mainly about complaining. You epitomize bullying. Aren’t you banned from ANA?
atdavid736 posts11-15-2019 1:45amGood laugh Skerdi. If only you knew how many people blocked you on FB because you weirded them out. Shouldn’t you be running to report back to Ted or something right now?
thyname432 posts11-14-2019 9:21pm“‘’ atdavid, you sure are a nosey f%@*$er. And quite creepy“”
No s@&*%t, you just realized that now? That’s what this guy does, full time. It’s his job. Every single Facebook group and audio forum. He has mastered the art of trolling. Can’t beat him I am afraid
Those crazy eastern philosophies. In yoga there are the 5 yamas the first ahimsa is non-violence the second is satya, truthfulness. Centuries ago it was the other way around but they changed it. Why would they do that? The first was always considered the most important and truthfulness held that honored position for a long time but followers of Pantanjali kept fighting over what truth meant so it was changed and placed behind non-violence. Doesn’t mean anything something that entered my mind reading your post.
Thanks very interesting post indeed...
Except eastern philosophies are no more crazy than western one, they are complementary way of being culturally....
The changes you alluded to was simply a sign in the times (Aeon) to be read like a sign and understood....
Sometimes cultures like individuals collide without understanding themselves in their deep complementarities... It is like that in many forums.... :)
Interesting that you felt I was speaking about you Robert. I have the strength of conviction to believe in myself and what I can perceive, rather than bowing down to pseudo experts who yes arrogantly claim to know more than the rest of us and if our views don’t mesh with theirs, then it is us who are the ignorant. It’s ok if you don’t have the hearing skills or technical knowledge to understand your own bias. The world is full if people who truly believe they are the center of the world rather than being open to other ideas, points of views, and enjoy discovering these in other people rather than try to make them conform to theirs
Truth is not experience, object, or opinion, or even concept, it is the emptiness where all there is is »- written on a china wall in ruins.
Those crazy eastern philosophies. In yoga there are the 5 yamas the first ahimsa is non-violence the second is satya, truthfulness. Centuries ago it was the other way around but they changed it. Why would they do that? The first was always considered the most important and truthfulness held that honored position for a long time but followers of Pantanjali kept fighting over what truth meant so it was changed and placed behind non-violence. Doesn't mean anything something that entered my mind reading your post.
I am so happy that I believe what I see and hear, rather than listen to others who try to say I should deny those things. That I must live by their rules because they define the rules for others, and doing otherwise is denying the truth, according to them. They must define what truth is for us, some of them seem very desperate to make us see thus truth, as if their truth will unravel if not. We should be the sheeple to their temple of truth. I’m happy with just being me, not sure why they’re so insistent we must be them
Roberttdid, i dont doubt a second your competence in audio....Not one second.... I know how to read between lines and not only lines...
You know way much than me in audio no doubt at all...
Is it clear?
But you dont imagine or know all that there is to know.... This is my point... And what i create homemade for my system with success would appear to you like non sense.... But....
:)
The cosmos is more vast than we think..... Audio is also a "cosmos".....
Couldn't possibly come from decades of experience and numerous tests ... and not just with my ears, but with many other ears. I am sure many of those ears were just as "qualified" as many on here.
mahgister2,826 posts07-13-2020 8:01pmSome has disdain for solutions that dont come from them or dont have a place in their frame of mind.... :) not
me, i guess i was an audiophile, because the most important was for me
to win a good hi-fi by my own means only ( i dont have the luxury of
money).
Some has disdain for solutions that dont come from them or dont have a place in their frame of mind.... :) Not me, i guess i was an audiophile, because the most important was for me to win a good hi-fi by my own means only ( i dont have the luxury of money). And i am not an engineer....
But in audio, the engineering basic design is already mature for the last 50 years, and except some new technology, the basic design is mature, then almost all product are on a quality/price ladder with 3 rungs : low, mid, high....Even dac technology begins to be good in the last decade and affordable...
Then for an audiophile, the S. Q. comes mostly from many other things than only electronical basic information or design... Pick some good E.C. (electronic component) on this ladder and the S. Q. increase will not come from basic electronical information mainly , but from the way you will embeds this audio system in your house and room....
Within 2 years of experiments each week mainly, i create my homemade low cost solutions to these 3 embeddings problem that would seem ridiculous or worst appalling in some case for a classical audio engineer... They works marvel for peanuts....My ears said so indeed....
No measuring electronic device would have made that possible...No way....
Controls of resonance, of the house electrical grid and last but not least of the acoustic with not only with passive materials but mostly active different ways can create a S. Q. "out of this world" without any unecessary upgrade...
My principal audio discovery after my own experience, is most people dont even know what the audio system they already own is able optimally to deliver....No electronic measuring device would replace the methods i had use to controls this 3 embeddings...For sure no change of cables too.... :)
For the cables problem, yes there is difference, no they are not generally big differences, and thirdly most people listen to cables in a non controlled environment then how can they be sure that their cables is the best?...
And last, most cables afficionados put their money at the wrong place, and for that i think like roberttdid and i have the same opinion .... But his measuring proof is for me unecessary and his blind testing obsession let me cold like ice.... My ears speak louder to me about cables differences so to speak.... :)
I trained my ears to transform my own system without needing any engineer, with good basic electronic component....I succeed for the cost of almost peanuts.... I dont sell nothing, my idea are free and i dont upgrade....
"Is that the real problem boxer12? ... that you only have some hobby level experience, but I have educational, research and practical experience in electronics, signal processing and acoustics? ... does it make you feel inadequate?"
Nope. I'm enjoying this hobby
Question: Do you really think people feel inadequate around you? The reason I'm asking is you've stated that a couple times now & it couldn't be farther from the truth. You seem to have disdain for audiophiles which is unusual since that's what this forum caters too.
Your lack of ability to understand what I post is not funny @andy2. Is that why you have not responded in YOUR thread with measurements of 2 cables as you said you would, and that you have not responded w.r.t. the Pass paper issue I noted?
That is because you only waste your time in threads about audio jewellery whatsyourname. Don’t blame me. Sorry another swing and a miss ISO. Good thing this is T-ball. They give out participation awards.
roberttdid471 posts07-13-2020 4:32pmIs that the real problem boxer12? ... that you only have some hobby level experience, but I have educational, research and practical experience in electronics, signal processing and acoustics? ... does it make you feel inadequate? ... it must, because you spend an awful lot of effort to attack me, but fail miserably at attacking my information and ideas. That’s probably why your posts are just hand waving at best, and mine contain clear, concise concepts.
Show me! bring it on what you have. I have only seen negative posts from you, i.e. don’t do this, don’t do that, this is snake oil, etc. etc. I have never seen anything constructive, helping people with the stuff that you proclaim to be a specialist. Under this handle and under your previous atdavid handle, and God knows what other handles.
Can you have a bit more positivity, focus on what you know, rather than simply bashing stuff you have zero interest on? Why be a Debbie Downer?
iso .. you are another one. You guys work so hard to discredit me. Not my ideas either, me personally. Sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will always stump you :-) ... cheers
Is that the real problem boxer12? ... that you only have some hobby level experience, but I have educational, research and practical experience in electronics, signal processing and acoustics? ... does it make you feel inadequate? ... it must, because you spend an awful lot of effort to attack me, but fail miserably at attacking my information and ideas. That's probably why your posts are just hand waving at best, and mine contain clear, concise concepts. I am sorry if I make you feel inadequate, but alas, we can't all have the same skill set. Have you thought about a hobby that does not make you feel inadequate?
Now you're saying it's what you "subjectively hear" if you would have started this thread with that instead of " There are still those who believe cables don't make a difference." then this thread would have died 350 posts ago.
It seems the crux of the cable issue stems from the comparisons of the likes of zip lamp chord and high fidelity cable. If zip chord works why spend a lot of money on “snake oil”?!And why not just get some silver wire and RCAs and build your own ICs for $20?A friend asked me about speaker wire for his old receiver/cheap speaker workshop system. I told him to use zip chord. That if he had a system that cost thousands I would recommend expensive cables. That it would not make much difference in his system and he would hear things fine. We obsessive audiophiles want to get the most out of our systems. Good cables do not make a system sound better, per se. They allow one to hear the most out of components. I have spent thousands on my components carefully compiled over many years and want to reap the most out of my investments. For me, by far, the bottom line is what I subjectively hear not measurements. That is, by far, the great fun of this great hobby!
And maybe one day in the future some audiophiles will realize the difference between good sound, and sound that is exactly the same but costs a whole lot more and stop trying to convince other audiophiles to make the same mistake. These same audiophiles already reject all sort of measurement but are quite happy to believe made up marketing material. I am sure if measurements improve they will reject those too.
And it is all quite silly as no one is saying that measurements indicate how an individual will perceive sound quality at least on this topic. What they are saying is that the reported changes from a cable change don’t match reality at least in a significant number of cases of what changing a cable could possibly do.
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