Are you trying humor now? IME, engineering humor tends to be a bit dry. Nice try though.
Who says cables don't make a difference?
Funny, after all these years, people still say things like "you wasted all that money on cables".
There are still those who believe cables don't make a difference.
I once did marketing for a cable line I consider to be about the best-Stealth Audio Cables.
One CES, I walked the rooms with the designer/owner, Serguei Timachev. He carried a pair of his then new Indra interconnects. Going from room to room he asked the room runners to replace their source to preamp IC with the Indra. There was not one that was not completely flabbergasted and said that the Indras blew away what they were using. That was the skyrocketing of Indra and Stealth. The Indra became one of the best reviewed cables ever.
Serguei now makes the Sakra-an IC that blows away the Indra!
I don't understand why some still do not value cables as much as I.
There are still those who believe cables don't make a difference.
I once did marketing for a cable line I consider to be about the best-Stealth Audio Cables.
One CES, I walked the rooms with the designer/owner, Serguei Timachev. He carried a pair of his then new Indra interconnects. Going from room to room he asked the room runners to replace their source to preamp IC with the Indra. There was not one that was not completely flabbergasted and said that the Indras blew away what they were using. That was the skyrocketing of Indra and Stealth. The Indra became one of the best reviewed cables ever.
Serguei now makes the Sakra-an IC that blows away the Indra!
I don't understand why some still do not value cables as much as I.
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Nope, you totally feel inadequate and whatshisname ...totally inadequate. Ditto for speedbump. Can't resist jumping en-mass onto my posts in some weird need for street cred or something, but alas, same tired arguments, or really lack thereof ... my ears! my ears! my ears! ... you guys make me laugh. You really are a hoot. |
speedbump6, "He could and would never settle for a true blind test don’t by independent researchers who could care less about what the results show. No matter how it was done, even if he initially agreed the process was sound, he would find the faults in the methods if the results didn’t turn out as he wished. He’s mad that point abundantly clear." Not to take sides, but it seems that you are very familiar with roberttdid's inner workings. Could it be that you are slightly biased and incorrect in your strong affirmative statements? No matter how provoked you may feel, do not fall into a trap of disregarding your own statement... "I’m not arrogant enough to to believe that I know everything..." |
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Thyname, I just researched some things you mentioned and the timing of Roberts supposed earlier alter ego, and the posts of his current one, and I have some to the same conclusions. The Robert account was started beginning of June. Since then you are correct, it’s been non stop attacking and belittling people. Claims to be the foremost audio/engineer expert on the forum apparently, as he doesn’t seem to have found anyone to be his equal, and most everyone have been shown as being deficient in their thinking and or hearing. Also a lot seem to be just generally poor human beings to boot along the way. The world must be a lonely place when you’re the only one who can see the real truth. Maybe it’s a good thing the rest of us are so much less enlightened . At least we have company |
I have given a simple test to try and will wait for a feedback.... Arguments only are mainly for marketers or debunkers... Experiments are more interesting and in audio the crux of the matter.... Here it is: take a bag of micro herkimer diamonds (40 or more around 10gram) and a piece of shungite (100 gram) put them on an amplifier near the transformer, one after the other and anyone will be able to pass the blindtest and guess which each one is .... The shungite will compress the sound, the herkimer diamonds will expand it.... After the blindtest i will give a recipe for other experiments.... |
Robert if the description of your swampland is as accurate as your ideas on audio theory, I’m not intrested. I prefer a certain type of swamp land, and I have little faith in your ability or skil to properly identify or describe the type of swampland you have for sale. Now if I can have my own third party certified expert examine your swamp land and give a proper description, then it’s possible I might be interested. But it seems you’re never open to independent third party, actual experts in their fields, when it involves the possibility of the results conflicting with your own opinions. |
roberttdid, take a bag of herkimer diamond and a piece of shungite put them on an amplifier one after the other and anyone will be able to pass the blindtest and guess which each one is .... Try it yourself....Instead of loosing time to debunk open doors.... Are you not curious? Is it not a simple experiment? You always ask for argument.... this is better than an argument.... After that i will give to you a simple cable recipe.... :) You answered swiftly those who has disrespected you.... I respect your knowledge...But you dont know everything even about cables.... By the way i create my own sound heaven with experiments not arguments....Who need arguments? :) |
We are the ones spending our money for our personal enjoyment. Not sure why some feel the need to try to convince us it’s bogus. You’re not spending their money, nor asking them to either. Bingo! One reason I hate this double-blind debate so much is its so unbelievably misguided. There's a time and a place for everything. Some guy like Ted Denney or Keith Herron, both of whom do use double-blind testing, they have a reason and they use it correctly. The idea, which I know for sure in the case of Keith who I talked to about this, is to test and see if there is any preference at all, and if so which way. These test subjects do not even know what is being compared or tested all they do is indicate whether they prefer one or the other or no difference. In this case testing is justified and valid because the goal is to develop a result a wide range of people will like. So it only makes sense to test a wide range of people. The situation with cables is completely different. Its one person buying one cable for themselves. What does that person care for the opinion of some random interboob? |
Not many scientist inhabit an audio thread....Their time is very short and very full already by other finality than arguing... Debunking is not a scientific activity "per se" nor marketing a product is either ... Experience in audio even for 40 years is not proof that you know all there is to know.... If i want to know about electrical compatibility between some electronic components i will ask some engineer here that are very competent.... We all know already some... But who among them will know how to use an herkimer diamond (H.D.) to improve very much an audio system for peanuts? Or will they smile at my "irrational" and "illusory" idea, even if experimenting that is easy, will they perform it? One thing is sure, a true scientist will try my idea, he will not propose a blind test instead.... But the answer is no for most, most will not experiment with the H. D. .... Dogmas kill science....Simple.... Happily i am an undogmatic free spirit, i listen to no one, except some competent one for basic information, and there is good fellows for that here, but i takes all that in my hand for the rest.... I am very proud.of my low cost audio system... :) |
Many people have done something g similar David, I know the naysayers, and Robert in particular will try to tell you why your test was invalid and you are really just assuming attributes being associated with particular cables because of what you’ve read about them. trust your ears, and as you saw, different people prefer different sounds, so one is t always better than another, but more like one may be better to you, and in the end, that’s all that matters. We are the ones spending our money for our personal enjoyment. Not sure why some feel the need to try to convince us it’s bogus. You’re not spending their money, nor asking them to either. |
I'll add, I have a DAP that I bought an inexpensive 3.5 to RCA (Y) I was using. I also incorrectly used a balanced higher end set from same DAP to same amp. The balanced sounded so much better. I thought balanced was why. Reading more, that was a no-no. Anyway, that Y was left in another location. I pulled out another Y and was surprised it sounded as good as the balanced. Both were pretty inexpensive - I'd guess from memory ~$30 and both sounded very different. So now I am looking for a good Y cable. |
I tried 3 Interconnects direct from my DAC to amps. Two amps were integrated, one was not and volume was used with the Audirvana player on my PC. 1 Moon Audio Black Dragon 3 ft. 2 Moon Audio Silver Dragon 1.5ft. 3 Better Cables Silver Serpent 1.5 ft. A few weeks ago we compared #1 to some Amazon Interconnects and 3 out of 3 of us, two were blind noticed quite a big difference. This time, 1 and 3 sounded about the same. Then we tested 1 vs 2 on 3 different amps. In every cars we could hear the difference. 3 - silver was brighter. It is what I would choose for detailed listing, but it would become fatiguing much sooner. My buddy liked the 1 set better in all situations. I thought 2 were better on one system. For the money - #3 was a great way to go. My net is they absolutely matter on a clean system vs the very low cost cables. $20 vs $300 mattered. $100 vs $300 not so much. And silver (bought used on eBay) near double the price were different. But different like how you might tune an EQ. I have not compared to anything higher priced. I expect I might discern a difference. I was surprised that there is a difference, but there is. |
Anyone with an agenda, pro cables or anti cables, audiophile marketer or audiophile debunker has nothing to do with science....And technology is a servant of science, a slave of scientific endeavour not science by itself...It is truer with the passing centuries.... The more advanced species quit physical technology long time ago.... :) Dont ask me how i know that.... |
Outscienced? You guys are literally anti-science. You don't even know what the question is, so how could you design an experiment. Call me what you want Cleeds, but the experiment is very clear, and the thing being tested is not the cable, it's the audiophile. My assertions are not rigid, they are accurate and informed, that is why in another thread I am arguing against someone who I know is blindly based on a very limited knowledge set claiming essentially you can't get noise via USB from a computer .... |
speedbump cleeds, Robert doesn’t even realize when he’s been out scienced on his blind testing theories, he never will ...@speedbump6, I’m not sure you’re right. I think Robert is a pretty smart guy. He’s a sophist who’s sometimes here to argue for argument’s sake, but I think he also recognizes that some of his rigid assertions just aren’t supportable. His content would be a lot more useful if he’d acknowledge that a little more clearly. |
cleeds, Robert doesn’t even realize when he’s been out scienced on his blind testing theories, he never will. He could and would never settle for a true blind test don’t by independent researchers who could care less about what the results show. No matter how it was done, even if he initially agreed the process was sound, he would find the faults in the methods if the results didn’t turn out as he wished. He’s mad that point abundantly clear. Robert, scientific testing isn’t done to prove a personal theory, it’s done to prove the facts, wherever that leads. I’m sure if such a test were ever conducted, you would be trying to get your hands into it, telling them the “ proper” way to conduct it ( to hopefully get the results you want) me, I’d let real experts decide the most unbiased way to perform said tests. Because in the end, it wouldn’t bother me in the least whatever the result might be. I know what I did was not quite that level, but more then close enough for skeptic in me to be convinced.as I’ve said before, that’s not the idea I went in with, or the result that I expected. I am absolutely convinced that the testing method was such that hat I heard was not altered in any way, and if I did have a bias before the testing, it was towards expecting not being able to hear any differences. The difference is, I’m open to being shown something new. I’m not arrogant enough to to believe that I know everything, or that I’ve heard everything, or that I can pre determine a product completely by measurements. |
He already did, when posting under atdavid account. In a conversation with Mike Powell: atdavid736 posts11-18-2019 11:23amI am there for work every 8 weeks approximately, but no guarantees on a Friday. I am certainly in. I don't think it matters if me or Dimora is a believer or not, as long as you are. If you can pick your cables out blind (or between a basic shielded cable and yours) then you have proved they make a difference. I don't know whether this ever materialized. Mike ? |
I am sorry you don't understand the most fundamental thing here Cleeds, which is --it is not the cable that is being tested--, it is the audiophile. You went on a rant telling me I don't know how to do testing, but you don't even know what is being tested. Don't now play the victim game. However, one can make the statistical conclusion after testing many audiophiles with many cables, that most of the claims they make w.r.t. cables making a significant difference in the sound To Them, are just that, claims. I don't need them to be biased or unbiased, because again, I am not testing cables, I am testing whether audiophiles can detect the changes in cables that they report absent visual clues. |
Ethan: WE ARE testing whether an individual can reliably detect which of two cables is which. BUT .... I am not testing the cable, I am testing the audiophiles claim w.r.t. cablesHmmmm.... so you are testing people, not audio gear / cables ? And why? What is your end result? it sounds like your test subjects (people) are this disgraced species, the audiophiles. |
roberttdid You are being needlessly pedantic yet illustrating you have not actually done double blind testing and don’t understand design of experiments ... And again, you are wrong ... Wow, it’s like you really don’t understand design of experiments at all ... Testing a large group of people would be meaningless, as it would only provide a statistical answer ...@Roberttdid, I’d respond to your remarks, but it would be hopeless, because you could trot out another gem such as this: roberttdid Let me type this slowly so that it is totally clear. I have run many blind tests ...Yes, clearly, "testing a large group of people would be meaningless." Worthless. Inconsequential. Of no value. Waste of time. Useless. Proves nothing. Bogus. Yields no data. Please let us know if you actually plan to conduct such testing, rather than just insisting that others here do your work for them. |
Cleeds, You are being needlessly pedantic yet illustrating you have not actually done double blind testing and don't understand design of experiments. If you want to test something, ideally you don't tell the people at all what they are even testing, and in some cases that can be controlled. Rarely it can. We are having a drug trial for a cancer drug but we are not going to tell the cancer patient its a cancer drug as they may be biased toward it working .... see how silly it sounds. We should also include people who don't have cancer :-) And again, you are wrong. WE ARE testing whether an individual can reliably detect which of two cables is which. That is all. No more, no less. We are not testing two things at the same time. Wow, it's like you really don't understand design of experiments at all. The individual is making the claim They can detect it. They are not making the claim someone somewhere can detect it, they are making the claim They can detect it. Testing a large group of people would be meaningless, as it would only provide a statistical answer, not an exact answer for that person. If I wanted to test in general whether a cable could possibly introduce an audible change, then yes, I would have to have a large number of test subject and it would only take one person within that group to reliably detect a change for the conclusion to be that it can be done, but if only one person did, I could claim on average most can't. BUT .... I am not testing the cable, I am testing the audiophiles claim w.r.t. cables. |
roberttdid You just raised pedantic to a whole new level.If you think the presentation of facts is pedantry, then you’re confused. Here’s an example of pedantry: roberttdid Let me type this slowly so that it is totally clear. I have run many blind tests ...Do you see the difference? It’s hard to put bias into a test process that involves nothing more than swapping cables ...Actually, it’s very easy to introduce bias into a test itself. There are mountains of information on this and I’m surprised that you don’t understand that. (I suspect that you do understand the nature of biased testing, and that you just prefer to not have to address it.) Remember what is being tested. What is being tested is that the person making the claim of (usually) a readily apparent audible difference is able to actually perceive in a blind situation the difference.Again, you are confused. A proper double-blind listening test does not test the listener, it tests the device under test (DUT). You cannot scientifically test for two things at the same time. If you want to test a listener, engage an audiologist. That’s what they do. If you want to make your blind cable test even more meaningful, you’ll want subjects that think cables make a difference as well as those who don’t think cables make a difference. And if you’re really ambitious, you’ll also include some listeners who don’t care - or have no opinion - one way or the other. The last blind test that I participated in years ago did just that, and it made the results even more interesting. @roberttdid if you are really serious about conducting some blind tests, please provide us with some details about your plan. |
I am sorry I just ran over the speedbump, but the topic of this thread is, "Who says cables don’t make a difference?" After 9 pages, that still seems to be lost on you. Who says? I say (and others), but most don’t have the experience and hence the confidence to back that statement up, and qualify it as required. Cleeds was just attempting to invent a psychological theory (where the opposite is usually true), as opposed to considering that perhaps, just perhaps, expectation bias is a bigger issue than most want to believe. Who says cables don't make a difference? ..... is this not a call out to challenge the notion that cables do make a difference. Otherwise just make a post called, "Love fest for cable differences", and be honest. |
Cleeds, it wouldn’t matter what you say, he’s done it better. He’s obviously the only true expert. He’s another kenjit. In his world at least, his word is final. For the rest of us though, we could actually have a meaningful convo if he would stay away from a subject he’s made very clear about his bais towards and let stop trying to destroy ever thread on the subject as he has blatantly tried to do. No wonder an older account t he had was banned. Brings nothing of value to the discussion, only goal is to tear down others thoughts. |
