I am pretty sure whether you use pure silver wire or cheap copper wire for the CAN bus in a Ferrari, the performance will be the same.
Who says cables don't make a difference?
Funny, after all these years, people still say things like "you wasted all that money on cables".
There are still those who believe cables don't make a difference.
I once did marketing for a cable line I consider to be about the best-Stealth Audio Cables.
One CES, I walked the rooms with the designer/owner, Serguei Timachev. He carried a pair of his then new Indra interconnects. Going from room to room he asked the room runners to replace their source to preamp IC with the Indra. There was not one that was not completely flabbergasted and said that the Indras blew away what they were using. That was the skyrocketing of Indra and Stealth. The Indra became one of the best reviewed cables ever.
Serguei now makes the Sakra-an IC that blows away the Indra!
I don't understand why some still do not value cables as much as I.
There are still those who believe cables don't make a difference.
I once did marketing for a cable line I consider to be about the best-Stealth Audio Cables.
One CES, I walked the rooms with the designer/owner, Serguei Timachev. He carried a pair of his then new Indra interconnects. Going from room to room he asked the room runners to replace their source to preamp IC with the Indra. There was not one that was not completely flabbergasted and said that the Indras blew away what they were using. That was the skyrocketing of Indra and Stealth. The Indra became one of the best reviewed cables ever.
Serguei now makes the Sakra-an IC that blows away the Indra!
I don't understand why some still do not value cables as much as I.
584 responses Add your response
These debates about cables are generally without interest..... Defenders and opponents are like 2 cats reading the other's grin with a replicating grin, and the 2 cats disapearence at the end let only their 2 grins mimicking one another, without any cats anymore like the Cheshire cat in Lewis Carroll.... :) |
Pretty much mahgister. One side will never admit the potential for a sonic difference, even when from a technical standpoint, there can be in some circumstances, and the other side will always make wild claims that they will refuse to submit to anything approaching scrutiny. It's a lost cause, but why so many insist on creating threads that add absolutely 0 to the argument? That I have no idea. mahgister2,669 posts07-02-2020 11:14amThese debates about cables are generally without interest..... |
I think that any component in a system is dedicated and focused on doing the least damage to the signal from the front end. And even the front end is dedicated to capturing the signal and transmitting it as uncolored as possible. The proverbial “straight wire with gain”. Certainly, there are characteristics of value to some but, certainly with cables, it is the most pure example of the “straight wire” part of the equation. And even the “with gain” part comes in when factoring in any resistance. The ultimate conclusion is that most very expensive cables are, truly, worth every penny. Strange that most pros only care about whether a cable can come undone and handle long runs by being balanced. However many of the world’s top recording studios put a lot into their playback systems. Skywalker Sound uses top line MIT cabling who make the world’s most expensive speaker cable at $80k! |
When I say that cables can’t add anything, they can only subtract, I’m pointing out the passive nature of wire. It is not an active component; ie, it has no gain over any part of it’s pass bandwidth. Therefore cable is what we call lossy. This general description applies equally to the cheapest and the most expensive of so-called “boutique” cables. Of course, I hook-up my system with interconnects. I buy quality made cables, purchased exclusively from mycablemart.com. These interconnects have gold plated hardware, good quality molding on the strain reliefs, and most importantly, the wire used is RG59. The cables have the added advantage of being extremely inexpensive while being almost identical in construction to the much more expensive “Blue Jeans” brand interconnects. Of course, I have no idea what these cables “sound like” vis-a-vis other cables, but since I don’t ever compare cables, it really doesn’t matter, does it? All interconnects sound subtly different, and since none are 100% neutral, whether the cables cost $thousands or pennies, there’s no way to tell which is the most neutral (total neutrality is what I believe the goal of cables to be. Otherwise we are compromising the aim of high-fidelity; i.e. a high degree of faithfulness to the original performance or recording). Hope this answers Oldhvymec’s question. |
georgemgraves Of course, I have no idea what these cables “sound like” vis-a-vis other cables, but since I don’t ever compare cables, it really doesn’t matter, does it? >>>>>>Not to you it doesn’t. But it probably does to many others. From each according to his abilities to each according to his needs. 😬 |
When I say that cables can’t add anything, they can only subtract, I’m pointing out the passive nature of wire. It is not an active component;Take a piece of shungite and put it on the amplifier cover over the transformer.... Shungite is a "passive" piece of minerals....And observe the compression of the sound.... Now take a big chunk of quartz and put it on the same location and observe the clearing of the sound, a decompression but with too much accent in the higher frequencies now.... Third experiment put them together and report here your experience... You will forget after that about ready made "scientific fact" about "passive" wire that are only engineering prejudice... You will discover why copper cable and silver one differ and can ADD something indeed.... :) « "Science is history of science" said Goethe, i will add science is, at the beginning like at the end, nothing else» -Groucho Marx |
I believe that cables definitely make a difference because all the people spending 10k-70k are not stupid to do so without hearing any difference I’m only using stock power cord and SVS speakers cables and interconnects because they looks gorgeous to me Also have Audioquest NRG4 power cord I got from eBay I bought them just for the looks i believe 20amp lines speakers cables and power cord make a difference But I can’t afford it We still don’t have a proper to way to measure them I know measurements and performance is different it doesn’t always translate good or bad watch this video from audioholics https://youtu.be/Rgun97VK7y8 |
Mahgister- It’s not that silver cables “add something” over their copper equivalents, it’s that silver subtracts less because it’s a better conductor and has less resistance and possibly less capacitive and inductive reactance. And in my considerable experience, things like shungite, quartz, myrtlewood, and the like placed on top of electrical components such as amplifier transformers achieve their results through a pair of phenomena called confirmation bias and expectational bias. But if you think these things make your system sound better, then that’s all that matters, isn’t it? Me, I think taking the money that others spend on improvements of dubious scientific worth, And buying more music improves my system immensely. :) |
" And in my considerable experience, things like shungite, quartz, myrtlewood, and the like placed on top of electrical components such as amplifier transformers achieve their results through a pair of phenomena called confirmation bias and expectational bias." Great, this again... Or, maybe they do shield the system from electromagnetic interference. In regard to your statement about cheap IC’s not "adding anything" to the signal... If only. They add a level of harshness & haze to the signal that CAN BE eliminated with a cable of proper design. |
imo cables matter but it is also the easiest area to go overboard with lowest cost / benefit lots of snake oil in the cable market, moreso than in components i wd say cables prices vs production costs leads to highest margins in the industry, thus the greed/exploitation factor is the most extreme (in an industry where the average level of marketing bs is already fairly high) |
And in my considerable experience, things like shungite, quartz, myrtlewood, and the like placed on top of electrical components such as amplifier transformers achieve their results through a pair of phenomena called confirmation bias and expectational bias. But if you think these things make your system sound better, then that’s all that matters, isn’t it? Me, I think taking the money that others spend on improvements of dubious scientific worth, And buying more music improves my system immensely. :)I respect your experience, but mine is different... Do you think that my unconscious was inventing a specific bias to the compressive effect of sound by shungite, the very different decompressive effect of quartz? the audible effect on the imaging by kambaba jasper, the cleaning powerful effect on all frequencies of herkimer diamond and all other very specific effects of all stones, negative effects and positives effects also of lava beads, amethysts, Tourmaline ? For the money question, all my tweaks are homemade and low costs, all comes from my own experiments... All my idea are free and i sell nothing... The results are powerful and cost peanuts, there is limit to what your imagination can create without your consent except among few total lunatics in asylum unfit to walk... Your answer remind me of the explanation about UFO by military intelligence 60 years ago....Awake yourself....Dont trust others and experiment yourself .... :) |
Boxer12; I have ever made a comment about ICs, cheap or expensive. You have me confused with someone else, I’m afraid. About your electromagnetic radiation comment. You are assuming that it is always present in all systems in enough quantity to audibly affect the signal being conducted. There is no evidence that I know of that supports that assumption. While possible, it should certainly be easy enough to test that hypothesis. If there was anything to it, I would suspect that cable manufacturers of interconnects whose designs yielded the lowest interference measurements would use those in their advertising to increase sales and making choosing interconnects easier for customers. But no such tests or measurements seem to exist. If “boutique” cable manufacturers actually try to technically explain their product’s superiority, they usually do it with technological nonsense. Most companies don’t bother to explain what even they don’t understand. |
Mocassin2, When one thinks about what comes before and after The “boutique” power cord: miles of cable before the mains plug including the house wiring and circuit breakers, and a tiny fuse filament and 18 - 20 gauge wire before and after the fuse to the primary of the power transformer through the power switch, it’s difficult to understand what a 1.5 - 2 meter length of cable, the thickness of a baby’s arm (or, perhaps, leg) is supposed to be doing. But I am a firm believer in isolating one’s audio system from the mains supply. I use a hospital 30 Ampere isolation transformer with LRC filters on both the primary and the secondary windings. Looking at the mains coming out the wall with one channel of a dual channel oscilloscope, and the secondary of the transformer with the other channel, the difference in the interference noise before and after the transformer has to be seen to be believed. The difference in sound with and without the hospital supply is anything but subtle. |
Cables, Capacitors, Diodes, Solder ... it all has a sound. Can we hear it in our room? Can we justify the expense? Maybe, maybe not. It's no matter ... the main listening tool is ME. Upgrade yourself first and always. There are a lot of people who don’t trust their ears, and they will preach the gospel of their ways to make you believe their faith. They call themselves scientists. Science is how sound moves on a wire, it’s not how we judge that wire for sound. |
6k ic's ? I could be a millonair and wouldn't spend that kind of money on a piece of wire . Not that I don't believe a I c could make a difference . They can and they do , in some instances a dramatic difference . But to spend that amount on a wire ? Especially knowing that some testing and shopping around could get me close or even surpass the sound . Even if it were the best...no way . XLO , JPS Labs , Nordost , Purist , Transparent , MIT...they all.make excellent wires that comunicate the essence of the music without spending so much . |
georgemgraves boxer12; I have ever made a comment about ICs, cheap or expensive. You have me confused with someone else, I’m afraid. About your electromagnetic radiation comment. You are assuming that it is always present in all systems in enough quantity to audibly affect the signal being conducted. There is no evidence that I know of that supports that assumption. While possible, it should certainly be easy enough to test that hypothesis. If there was anything to it, I would suspect that cable manufacturers of interconnects whose designs yielded the lowest interference measurements would use those in their advertising to increase sales and making choosing interconnects easier for customers. But no such tests or measurements seem to exist. If “boutique” cable manufacturers actually try to technically explain their product’s superiority, they usually do it with technological nonsense. Most companies don’t bother to explain what even they don’t understand. >>>I suspect this might be a case of I haven’t found any evidence so it must not exist. It sounds like you have an ax to grind but if you can provide any what you believe to be “technological nonsense” from high end cable manufacturers please be my guest. Share, share! |
Many years ago I had a very modest system with Carver amplification and Platinum Audio's $800 entry floor standing speakers. I bought them from my local Platinum dealer who often let me take used equipment home on a Saturday afternoon to have a weekend audition. I took some XLO $1200 IC home one weekend. One of my friends was into car audio and was a judge for competitions in Toronto. We did A-B to my $40 MIT IC over and over and neither could ever tell a difference. I don't recall the publication but the article was titled, To Tweak or Not To Tweak. It was an extreme comparison of two systems where the only common piece was the speakers and everything behind the curtain was uber cheap on one and nice on the other. He had a panel of 10 that ranged from the typical house wife who couldn't care less to audiophiles and had them guess which system they were hearing. It was a complete toss-up where audiophiles would swear it was the upgraded system and was his homemade amp with 50 feet of radioshack zipcord for wire. Back to my Platinum dealer. I told him I couldn't hear anything and he asked me with sincerity....do you want to hear the difference?? He said it is a learned skill and that if I did....we would spend a couple hours in his store and he could teach me. The problem he said was once I learned and truly heard I could never go back and would forever want to add cabling to my list of upgrades. I passed on the lesson. Today I hear obvious improvements when I change amps, preamps, speakers and cartridges. I simply don't ever try different cables. I use stock power cords. I bought a bulk used lot of Audioquest speaker wire many years ago and have added the DiamondBack line of IC and have simply just left it alone. I trust people that swear by this as they crossed over that bridge and now know. Maybe one day I will experiment, but I am not there yet. |
There's never been any doubt in my mind that they make a difference, but I've always felt they were pretty subtle differences and I have focused more on the quality of the cable and connections and whether it was good for the application I used it in. More than anything, my main goal was to do no harm. I've used some cables that degraded the quality of the sound, but haven't heard any in my system that made a big improvement. That was until the other day when I bought some fairly expensive interconnects (used at a good price) and inserted them between my phono stage and preamp. It made a pretty noticeable improvement in sound quality and I have been playing a number of records I'm very familiar with and it's like hearing some of them for the first time. If it's all in my mind, well... whatever. I'll keep enjoying that placebo effect I guess. |
The same cables dont create the same difference in different audio system and embeddings.... Their impact results is not also related to their price.... These are the reasons behind all these debates....And at the end cables makes most of the times way less impact than the rightful controls of the 3 embeddings of the audio system.... Then people speaking about cables often dont owns an audio system rightly embedded; because if their system would be rightfully embedded they will not speak so much about trivial matters and evident perceptible effects of cables in any refine and minimally rightly embedded audio system.... |
jjss49Knowledge and skill building cables usually neglected in calculating final production cost. Like EVERYTHING in the market, Caveat Emptor! |
To my ears, speaker cables make an audible difference. Notice that I said "audible." Has changing cables around taken my system from good to great? No. But each incremental improvement adds up. As far as the "pseudoscience" of cables goes, it seems to me that every manufacturer has to have a gimmick or sizzle to sell their cables. I have a pair of MIT S1.3 cables. I like them. I think that the marketing, i.e., the "poles of articulation" is probably just nonsense, but I like the cables. I have Morrow MA7 cables now and I like them slightly better than the MIT's. Do I think that Morrow's "SSI" sizzle makes more sense that "poles of articulation?" Not really, but I like the way they sound. So the sizzle is irrelevant. Soun in your system counts. Probably the higher end you go, the more cables make a difference, I suppose. But it seems to me that at some point you are limited by the source material, and the best cables will not change a bootleg of Led Zeppelin into a well-recorded masterpiece. My 2 cents. |
Limomangus I must be crazier than you I use canare 4s11 speaker wire on speakers that cost 3x yours. By my estimation you're sane. The speaker cable elf could swap out my cheapo cables for uber $$$ silver magic cables and I would never hear a difference. The speakers themselves and room acoustics affect what you hear way more than some wire. |
Well said joecasey.The skeptics (deaf luddites) that can’t hear cables have only one argument now: price! They immediately cite two choices--$4 Radio Shack interconnects or $10000 MIT’s. Or worse. If these disabled folks would spend ANYTHING ($100) on a decent set of used cables they’d settle down and enjoy their system. Maybe they’re just cheap, skinflint wierdos who wouldn’t spend a dime to prove whether their stubborn attitude means anything.They’ve never used anything they couldn’t find at Home Depot.How many people hook up a new set of cables and immediately criticize the sound? It's important to know how they sound out of the box--but only to evaluate the impending stages of break-in. If you can't listen to new cables for a week or two to judge, you probably bought them from the wrong source.You wouldn't do that with a new pair of hearing aids! That's all cables are: hearing aids! |
Moto_man; you hit the nail squarely on the head. No cable, irrespective of price sounds the same in any two systems (unless they are identical, of course). So the consumer is always buying a pig in a poke. “Interconnects are like a box of chocolates; you never know what you’re gonna get.” I look on them as fixed tone controls that work randomly and unpredictably. IOW, when you go down that road, you are opening a Pandora’s box that probably can’t be closed again. Is there a rehab center for that? |
Just a careful note, but the prevalence of mental disabilities is much higher than the prevalence of physical disabilities .... Not that I am implying anything. denverfred32 posts07-03-2020 1:14pmWell said joecasey.The skeptics (deaf luddites) that can’t hear cables have only one argument now: price! They immediately cite two choices--$4 Radio Shack interconnects or $10000 MIT’s. Or worse. If these disabled folks would spend ANYTHING ($100) on a decent set of used cables they’d settle down and enjoy their system. Maybe they’re just cheap, skinflint wierdos who wouldn’t spend a dime to prove whether their stubborn attitude means anything. |
My biggest mistake in hi-fi after 30+ years was to underestimate the importance of a speaker cable. There were times when I was using $7,000 speakers with a cheap cable which, as I realised much later, was suffocating the excellent speakers. But I am a scrooge and I need 7 meter runs. Now I am using an inexpensive but good Zu Libtec and what a difference it makes. |
EVERYTHING is equally important in my system. I neglect NOTHING!I understand you perfectly.... Same thing for me.... But we must decide if we will invest thousand of dollars for example in mechanical resonance controls? Or in the house electrical grid controls? Or in the acoustic of the room? If our ressources are limited or scarce what will be the most important thing to invest in and in what proportion compared to the others problems? I only think that cables comes last after these 3..... :) |
Thought I might open up a can of worms. One interesting element is the prejudice factor. When so called audiophiles say things like “smoke and mirrors”, “pseudoscience”, “my $50 cable sounds the same”, they are doing nothing more than professing their ignorance. They tend to be set in their attitude regardless of enormous objective proof. The true and educated audiophile well understands and knows just how complex and critical cables are to the ultimate performance of any system.It has been wisely pointed out that so many medium to very expensive cables are sold to many intelligent and attuned people. And many companies are very established and successful selling these cables. Even if I were a very rich man, I would never buy an $80k speaker cable. No, but only because I am an experienced audiophile and know that I can get as good or better for much less. Would I use zip cord lamp wire for my speakers? Yes, for my garage system with an old receiver, etc. Surely, the nature and quality of you system is a critical factor. |
Keep your 50 dollars cables.... But treat your room and prepare yourself for a big surprize.... Really??? Oh, and 2x2=4, you forgot to add. (Please forgive my irony if you are a complete beginner and just recently discovered the room importance). |
