Having just made several upgrades to my system, it's now time for the amp. Given the number of amps in the 15-30k range, I'm guessing many of you have experiences with them. To get started, I'll tell you my (1) my guidance (2) my current list of options (3) My current setup. Looking forward to getting more options on my list, as I'd like to pull the trigger in about 2 months and need to start listening.
My Guidance - Under $30k - I need to be able to hear the amp before purchase, preferably at a local shop (SF Bay Area) - New or used ok - Large sound stage - Bass - More Bass... all the bass - Very much prefer stereo to fit in my rack. I have small children and not enough room for monos. - Prefer not tubes (already have a tube line stage - too hot for small children and don't fit in rack) - I'm ok with a colored sound. Prefer musicality and realism over "accuracy" or "neutrality" - Needs an absolute minimum of 150W based on how loud I listen - 15/20A or something I can plug into a regular wall outlet
My Current List of options - Luxman M900u (current top of list) - Ayre VX-R Twenty - Pass Labs XA160.8 (doesn't meet all of my guidance) - Boulder 2160 (a little above budget) - Audio Research 160S (doesn't meet all of my guidance)
My Current Setup - AMG Viella Turbo Turntable w/ Koetsu Onyx Platinum Cartridge - Boulder 508 Phono Stage - Mytek Manhattan II DAC (next upgrade after the amp - maybe a dCS Bartok?) - Audio Research Reference 6 line stage - McIntosh MC452 power amplifier - B&W 802D3 speakers - AudioQuest and Nordost cabling or a Symposium Osiris rack
What I listen to: Anything from the 60s on vinyl, some things from the 70s on vinyl. A lot of large orchestral and jazz, also a fair amount of pop, from any decade, on vinyl and digital. Thanks for reading my long post! I'll keep this thread updated with amps I hear. Lots of great shops in the area. My two favorites are The Analog Room in Campbell and Music Lovers Audio in Oakland and SF.
I will throw my .02 here. I sold Hi end audio for about 15 yrs, swimming in this dollar pond for an amp, there is only one thing to do. One MUST hear the prospective amp in their house, in their system.
Going to a shop to "hear an amp" that has 20+ variables....room...other equipment, cables etc is MOOT and will tell you NOTHING.
You have nice gear and speakers certainly worthy of a top amp. Just gotta hear it.....at home.
Totally agree with the last post by superhonestben. How in the heck are you supposed to tell what a particular piece of gear is doing in a totally different system? How do you not know it's the DAC or the preamp or cables that are creating the magic? I've really never understood this at all.
The right amplifier in a system is so specific to the particular system matching and personal taste that it is almost impossible to make meaningful recommendations except for the purpose of establishing a list of candidates. It would not make that much sense to go to a shop to listen to a candidate either. To me, the best approach is to work with a small number of dealers who are willing to let you audition amps in your own system. That might mean a large deposit or "buying" the amp with a return allowed (perhaps with a re-stocking fee). Of course this would limit your auditions to only a few models, but, at least you are assured of liking what you purchase.
I may try to stretch my budget for the Boulder 2160. Seems like it has everything I am looking for. Speed, bass weight, accuracy while still being musical, solid state, fits in a rack, and loads of Class A power.
You'll never come close to hearing the full potential of the 2160 unless you pair it with one of Boulder's best preamps, and then, because your system will be so ruthlessly revealing, you'll likely have significant synergistic issues, particularly with your cables.
Hi @majoradamwest. Looking forward to hearing about your findings and comparisons. +2 on the 860a v2. and perhaps you could stretch for a mono pair. As you may know, audiovisionsf has their demo now broken-in. They also recently started carrying gryphon and mac so may be able to cobble together an interesting A/B. That said, would be great to test it at home...
Cables are Transparent Reference, specifically chosen to match the Boulder setup. I could get the Boulder pre-amp, but it's 55k and I quite like the little bit of character I get from the ARC Ref 6. The Boulder Phono is wonderfully neutral as well, and now have a Lyra Etna SL (just totally blows away the Koetsu Onyx Platinum).
I’ll try to get up there to hear the 860v2 but don’t love the idea that it’s only Class A up to 5W. The Boulder 1160 is 17W of Class A and the 2160 is 600! (1200W into 4ohm)
Tracking a car will give you a new appreciation for the cost of consumables. $700 for new tubes doesn’t seem so bad when brake pads are the same price and last just a half dozen days.
And racing a car makes tracking look like sanity, unless you mix it up with the Armco.... but in a sense you understand the Lyra you run is about $6 an LP at the low end. seriously give the a Ayre a shot and don’t worry so much about class A enjoy the music and the car
I suspect the Lyra is closer to $3 per LP but the point is valid. No turbo in the RS. 520 naturally aspirated horses that rev to 9000. I do plan on trying the Ayre as well. From what I read, the Boulder 2160 might be tough to beat. That said, I don’t think it meets one of the major requirements. I just happened to look at the dimensions. It’s freaking gigantic. No way that thing is fitting in a rack.
I need to hop on-board with Tom_Hankins here. I recently replaced my pair of ARC 750SE's (70k) with a pair of Audionet MAX's (30.5k). System is ARC REF 10 pre/REF 3 Phono, YG Sonja 2.2 speaks, MBL N31 cdp, TW Raven 3 table/Raven arm, Air Tight Opus tied up with Shunyata PC's and Crystal Clear IC's. Amazing how the MAX's teamed up with the REF 10 (also occasionally swap out with a VTL 7.5 v3 pre with same results). Brought the entire system into focus with insane transparency and detail!! Initial reaction was a shortfall in bass/mid-bass, but after extended listening the entire rig is simply more clearly balanced in every way. Tighter, cleaner bass without a ton of "wooliness" from the massive tube amps.Once again, proves the point of system synergy vs. MSRP. Best of Luck and Listening!
@jackaro that’s a really great data point, thanks. I was eyeing a used set of 750 SE I had seen for a great price but I had this feeling in a back to back test, SS would really crush the tubes on clarity. It seems like I probably made the right choice with the tube preamp. Will definitely look in to the options you mentioned. Thanks!
@douglas_schroeder I have not considered it for a couple reasons. First, is that the Mytek seems to have this tendency to jump the volume around based on my computer’s settings and I just know I am going to blow out a speaker if I trust it. Second, when I do replace the Mytek with the Rossini, I’ll probably try it, but need a preamp regardless for the phono side which is, if anything, more important to me. I do appreciate the suggestion and will definitely try it with the dCS.
PS posed: The eternal question: "When is good enough good enough?"
Joe Casey says Never!!! *************************************** Ah, Mr. Casey, "Never!!!" you say? - therein lies a path to eternal dissatisfaction. Or worse.
You should check out Marks review of Rossini 2.0 on The Audio Beat and his sidebar on analog preamp functionality and at least four possible solutions. I have both the excellent sounding WADIA 17 and 4000 along with Ayre A2D and the 2.0 might be next for me IF it can displace the Pandora Sig and Ref5se yes I am very aware the RS has no turbos, my point was more along the lines of the relationship between tracking and the relative insanity of racing..,Porsche treat turbos as consumables under CPO ref 650 and 750 are midrange magic machines and tube salesman dream system synergy is everything have fun
@tomic601 thanks for pointing me towards that review. It confirms what I was hoping, that the Rossini is a DAC with nearly no peers. As for using it as a preamp, I’m not sold. I like the sound of the Ref 6 and can’t really picture myself going through the trouble of doing a pointless A2D and D2A for my TT, which is the thing I listen to the most, by a wide margin.
To reiterate what others have asked: what is it you feel you’re missing and what is it that you’re hoping to find? Furthermore, why is $30K, for an amplifier, your "magic number?" Can you articulate how the level of your existing system relates to the level of musical enjoyment you derive when you sit down and simply listen to that system? Do you wonder how much more enjoyable it would, could, might be, how much better it would sound, if only you had the perfect amp?
I mean no disrespect, and I ask out of curiosity. And I do wish you luck on your journey.
Like everyone else, improvement in sound. Musicality, clarity, bass speed, and sound stage. With the Boulder phono and Amp with Transparent Reference cables, I think I will be set up pretty neutral for any other changes I would want to make in the future like cartridges and speakers. That said, I want to make sure I hear lots of options.
FWIW, I just completed an all day audition of seven different top flight integrated amps using the same exact speakers I own and at matched volume levels. The amps I auditioned included the Luxman 905x, Simaudio 340ix, Hegel H390, NAIM Supernait 3, Pass Labs int 60, Gryphon Diablo 300, and VAC 170i. ALL sounded superb. And I would be ecstatic to own any of them. They all had their respective sonic personalities. However, there was one amp that I kept coming back to, over and over and over again...the D300...hands down. The amp produced the exact sound and characteristics my ears wanted to hear. It sounded absolutely sublime and the craftsmanship was flawless. My amp hunt is over.
@mayoradamwest, have to considered Vitus? Oz, their US distributor is based out LA area and is a great guy. I am sure he can figure out a way for you to do an in home demo.
Another possibility would be to keep your system as is and spend a few thousand dollars or maybe even more, on the finest recordings you can find, of your favorite artists. Sit back and enjoy with the beverage of your choice.
I just remembered an astonishing audio experience that I was fortunate enough to have a couple of years ago. Someone I know, who happens to review for one of the major audiophile publications, invited me to hear his All-Gamut system. At the risk of being hyperbolic, it was truly mind-blowing. I mean the musicians were not only in the room but you felt as if you could almost touch them! One downside for you is that, apparently, the Gamut gear sounded by far, the best, with Shunyata cables. The price meets your budget, too!
I've heard several of the amps so far, but none in my system. That's going to be challenging, as no store is going to do a home trial for a new customer. Having listening to halo options from Air Tight, Plinius, Chord, Linn, SimAudio Moon 880M, Mac monos, and a few others, not sure I could make any judgement as they were in different systems.
That said, near the very top of my list was the Gryphon Antileon Evo Stereo. It splits the price difference between the Boulder 1160 and 2160 and provides a full 150W of Class A power.
So, I called a shop I had been meaning to check out for some time, Audio Vision SF. Wow. The person on the phone (name intentionally omitted) was dismissive from the very beginning, seemingly assumed I had no real interest in the amp, and couldn't afford it, even after telling him what else was already in my system. He was as unfriendly as I could have imagined - like a really bad used car salesman. Then, he topped it off with saying I need to pay HIM $250 for the honor of listening to the amp. Yes, you read that right. He wants me to pay $250 to shop in his store. LOL!
Anyway, back to Music Lovers. They have been the nicest, most welcoming audio shop I have ever been in, and really have gone above and beyond to help me out, from the very first phone call. I'd rather settle for not having tried every amp to get the sort of service I get with this shop. Highly recommended. (I have been going to the Berkeley location).
Sadly working with local dealers is a hit or miss I have realized as well. Sometimes reaching out to distributors help as well. The good ones will help you figure out a way to try them at home.
If you like the the Gryphon, as mentioned before, I would see if you could try out Vitus as well (if you haven't already). Their higher end Class A amps are very well regarded. Not as well known yet in the US but has a big following internationally. They have a new distributor and opened up a service center in CA.
I have been speaking to the distributor to arrange for a in-home demo of the RI-101 integrated.
Agree a dealer’s attitude can totally change things. Was it $250 to have them bring the amp down to your home for a demo or for in store? If the latter, that would be quite strange...
@zprrI I was quoted $250 by local dealer for him to send a tech to my home with the amplifier I was interested in at the time, set it up, and give me a couple of days to audition. It seemed quite reasonable to me.
No dealer in his/her right mind would charge for an in-store!
I maybe would have understood for an in-home trial, yes! But this was literally for what he said was “an hour of their time in a dedicated room in their shop”. I was blown away. Why does anyone shop there? I read the Yelp reviews and it seems like I’m not the only one with this experience. Avoid! Not sure how else I would try out the Gryphon. Will stick to Luxman and Boulder for in-home.(less interested in the Ayre)
That's appalling for local dealer. Especially since you can reach out to dealers out of state, to potentially a better deal and save the 10%+ CA taxes (if the brand isn't geographically controlled). Only reason to buy locally is trust and customer service.
FWIW, I love the Luxman m900u with and without c900u. It's a special amp.
@eziggy I am sure Music Lovers will take care of me on price and support. At the moment leaning towards the Boulder 1160 with the option to get the 1110 preamp down the road. Need to hear it in my system first to make sure it sounds good in my room.
Is there anyone here who believes that the more a component costs, the "better" it will sound? It seems to me that the variables are great and are always relative.
One more somewhat rhetorical question, what constitutes musical satisfaction for those seeking the nth degree, and how do you know when "you're there?"
If this is off-topic, mods, please delete. Thanks and cheers to all.
I’ve not personally auditioned anything substantially more expensive than another item and found it to be inferior. I’ve auditioned a lot of stuff, but not everything, so I’m sure it happens, especially with the more obscure stuff out there. I think it’s a safe to infer that substantially more money will get better performance.
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