Which is the most important part of a stereo system?
My system consists of a pair of B&W 630's, an old Denon 50 watt reciever (DRA-550) from the mid 80's, a Marantz CD5004 cd player, and now a Pro-ject Debut Carbon DC Turntable. I'm pleased with the speakers and the cd player and while the Denon sounds good it has some issues and I want to upgrade.
I'm planning on returning the Pro-ject TT and getting a higher end TT. I'm also looking into getting a new amp pre amp with a internal DAC.
Which is the most important part of a stereo system?
I wish someone had clearly told me the answer at the start of my trip in audio...That would had spare me money and time...
The most important part of a stereo system is not any of the electronic components, turntable, dac, computer, amplifier, speakers....( For sure choose them with care but after that forget them, dont upgrade, and begins the thinking process with what you owns)
The most important part of a stereo system is invisible to the eyes but very audible to the ears...
The most important part of a stereo system is these 3 embeddings for any stereo system whatsoever :
1-The mechanical environment of each electronic component (vibrations-resonances controls)
2-The electrical grid of the room and of the house
3a-the "passive" room treatment with materials absorbant and reflective ones 3b-the "active" acoustical space modifications with reflectors, Helmholtz resonators, Schumann generators,etc
(An important remark: Room treatment with absorbant or reflective materials and non conventional acoustical space modifications with Schumann modified generators and controls with Helmholtz resonators or different resonators and reflectors are not the same thing. We must not confuse room treatment with acoustical space modifications.)
This is what I learned, a good electronic component will work like any other good electronic component, and the upgrading of one will never rival with these three embeddings right implementation; absolutely no comparison in increasing S.Q. with an upgrade of any electronic component...
Embedding a system is the way....The Tao of audio....
Dont buy anything before thinking about that and experimenting....
The good news is that it is possible to afford Hi-Fi at low cost, buying used, vintage or simply low cost good components... I know I did that...It is also possible to create homemade low cost solutions for all of these 3 embeddings...I know I did precisely that...
The most important is the embeddings not the brand name of the electronic components at all ( for sure we all have our likings but it is only anecdotal interest, because they are plenty of very good electronic components)...
In simple word, your ear is the only true guru in audio and you must seriously listen to him ...
02-08-2020 3:39pmI’d say speakers then source then pre then amps
I think once you nail the speaker sound you love - then source can always be upgraded to match. I think my current system the speakers are 45-50% of overall budget. (at RRP)
@mahgister, I enjoyed reading your post but it doesn’t seem to be entirely logical. I agree that a good sound reproduction does not have to cost the earth but your ideas about importance seem just a little ’left field’.
You seem to be implying that the gap between different systems is smaller than the gap between different rooms.
I might not have great memories of my time with my Linn LP12 but I can’t believe that it would have ever sounded worse than my Rega Planar 1 - whatever the room or treatment. They were just on different levels altogether.
I suppose we all also have different ideas as to what makes a good room. Some might prefer a relatively dead room and others like me preferring a little bit more life in the room.
You seem to be implying that the gap between different systems is smaller than the gap between different rooms.
First thanks cd318 for your kind observation and attention to myself and posts...
But you underestimated what I say, and unvoluntarily misrepresented it...
You underestimated my argument because it is not about room treatment but about 3 simultaneous embeddings...And room treatment is only the point 3a, there are other 3 points: 3b,1, and 2.
These 4 points grouped in 3 parts define what I called the embeddings of any audio system...
You misrepresented my argument because, it will need a fool or someone who delude himself, to negate differences, great ones most of the times, between a low cost system and a highly costly one...
My argument is simply this: the difference between most audio systems is big, but not big enough most of the times to compared with an audio system rightly embedded according to the rules pertaining to these 4 points in 3 part embeddings...
If there is 3 rungs in the scale going to low, mid, and high, any electronic component pertaining to a rung of this scale is different with another on the same rung...But rightly embedded anyone of this element go from a rung to a higher rung entirely if it is rightly embedded with the 3 implementation protocols and parts pertaining to each one of these 4 methods :
1-The mechanical environment of each electronic component (vibrations-resonances controls)
2-The electrical grid of the room and of the house
3a-the "passive" room treatment with materials absorbant and reflective ones
3b-the "active" acoustical space modifications with reflectors, Helmholtz resonators, Schumann generators,etc (We must not confuse room treatment 3a with acoustical space modifications 3b.)
In the universal race to upgrade and buy the ultimate high electronic components, people forget or ignore the right way to implement an audio system... The proof of that is simple: most people think that a better dac or amplifier or speakers will give to them the better sound magically by itself...The entire marketing industry promote that....Marginally someone speaks, generally to sell something, about vibrations or room treatment...Rarely about these 2 on the same page or article...And this 2 points are only half of my argument (4 points in 3 parts).. Then most people are unconscious of this fact: the real experience of an audiophile musical event is not the results of the electronics components only and "per se" but by far the results of a rightful implementation of them... The proof of that is easy to make....Which do you want: a mid system in an ideal room and house controlled environment ? Or a high cost system in a bad house room environment?
My most important point is that it is possible by homemade methods and materials or with very low cost products to create a complete relatively good implementation that will transform any audio system into his ideal peak potential working function...At least then projecting it on another rung of the scale quality ratio/ price...This is my experience and good news...Interpreting that like a negation of the difference in quality between for example an amplifier like my Sansui versus a Top high end ZOTL Berning amplifier( I dream to buy one) is simplistic...There is differences between electronic components...But it is not the important half of the story...This is my point...I live happy now with my Sansui...Guess why?
My best wishes to you....
" My car is bigger than your male organ" Groucho Marx
It is the SPEAKERS it's an oversimplification this is where the sound comes from. Paul at PS Audio states the same thing. If you upgrade your speakers you will hear an improvement that should be significant.
If you take a $300 streamer and $3000 streamer most people cannot hear a difference even with a revealing system but with poor speakers, you will not discern the difference.
I think it's like the old SLR cameras the body of the camera just controls the shutter so the money you put into the body of the camera didn't make that much difference a Nikon or pin hole. But it was the Lens that actually captured the image great lens great image.
Great speakers great sound. It's like what Kevin at Upscale Audio says $40,000 turntable with a $400 cart is a $400 turntable that might be the exception to the rule
Terry9, and anyone else who thinks cables are least important:
you couldn’t be more wrong, however, it is true that much of what is being sold as hi-end cables can often hurt the sound. Believe me I know, but when cables are designed by people who actually understand the inherent obstacles to producing quality cables the music benefits. If/when there are diminishing returns it is at the very top of a cable line (when they typically cost as much as a car)
My preference is WireWorld, who offers several series to fit your budget. Also, about a year ago, they introduced Series 8. I have seen a good amount of used Series 7 as some people feel compelled to upgrade
OP 2 that I am familiar with (either their integrates or as separates include; Parasound (A23 + P5) and Elac (I own the Audio Alchemy DDP-1 + PS 5 : Parasound include dac/phono, but Elac includes Streaming and their amp can be turned into mono with a flip of a switch, should you want more power with their matching amp. The Elac is true balanced!
Underwood HiFi sells the Elac among it’s many products, all with very good discounts hth
Room. The room is usually the hardest to change. The room will dictate speaker and listener placement. Once that is determined, a savvy buyer will consider speakers (including subwoofers) that will perform optimally in the chosen room. Sound dispersion, wall, floor and ceiling reflections and absorption treatments, bass traps, subwoofer system and room loading, digital room correction will all be considered. Once the speaker selection is pared down to those that will complement the room, the buyer will select speakers that sound "good" to him/her (or maybe look good). Once that is settled, a good audio dealer will be able to hook you up with appropriate amplification for the chosen speakers. Source should be considered last, as it is the easiest to change. Note: it is amazing how even inexpensive speakers can sound fantastic when pulled away from the walls and reflective surfaces and into the middle of the room. I have a couple of Harbeth P3 speakers that are easy to move (I can't leave them in the middle of the room, so I put them back when I am done listening). In that nearfield position, with me on a chair away from the back wall, It is very hard to imagine anything that could sound much better (well, actually I can, but tube amplified horn-loaded compression drivers with a custom crossover or Wilson Chronosonics driven by D'Agostino M-400s is fairly out of my budget - and wouldn't fit in my room anyhow)!
What's wrong with you Denon and your Turntable? Have you heard another system that you liked? Personally, I think a stereo system is really just a decoding mechanism. The more information you can retrieve from your source the more information you will hear. Do you live in an apartment, condo or home? The reason I ask is, unless you have neighbors that love your music you'll find listening with headphones doesn't break leases. With speakers, then its a matter of the kind of music you like, how loud you'll play the music and how much bass you want. Some amps and speakers do work better together than others, ie - low powered tube amps with efficient horn speakers, high power amps with less efficient speakers like Magnapans. Also with speakers, consider how big is your room and how close will you be to the speakers. But mainly it's the type of music you like that determines which components work for you. Having the most reveling system doesn't guarantee nirvana. Try playing 70's commercial rock records on a reveling system and see what it sounds like. Simple answer to your question - an integrated amp like the Outlaw Audio RR-2160 sounds great and has a DAC, internet radio and a FM tuner. With your turntable, try using a felt mat and check out the videos on You Tube regarding the removal of the shipping screws near the motor. (I did on my ProJect and it cut down on the motor noise and the felt mat reduced the static clicks. Also, clean your records and try plugging all your components directly into the AC outlets (replacing your ac outlets with hospital grade outlets helps increase the apparent bass). Have fun and enjoy the ride.
For many years I believed it to be the speakers, but after experiencing a hi-end system in a room before it was (properly) treated acoustically, then after the room was properly treated, the difference was nothing short of stunning. Again, the system did not change, only the room. I think anyone who is serious about hifi and wants the best from the space that their system resides in should correct the space before trying to correct the system to their ears liking.
@tweak1 Terry9, and anyone else who thinks cables are least important: you couldn’t be more wrong"
So you think that cables are more important than the speakers? Amplifiers? Preamp? Phono? Turntable? Tonearm? Or cartridge?
And what is your evidence? I mean a real test, not a gut feeling.
I did the test. I built a special cabinet to be a Faraday cage, then used theoretically optimal 99.99% pure silver conductors inside teflon tubular insulators which barely contacted the conductors, which were separated by 50mm for near-zero capacitance. ETI connectors. Compared to premium microphone cable with ETI connectors. Difference negligible.
The specific model of epitaxial output transistors, from the same manufacturer, same technology, and same family, made far more difference. As did the resistance of the amp's circuit breaker. Lots of things make a difference, and even cabling does to some extent. But nothing compared to an entire component. And next to nothing in terms of benefit related to cost.
I did the test. I built a special cabinet to be a Faraday cage, then used theoretically optimal 99.99% pure silver conductors inside teflon tubular insulators which barely contacted the conductors, which were separated by 50mm for near-zero capacitance. ETI connectors. Compared to premium microphone cable with ETI connectors. Difference negligible.
>>>>>Strictly speaking, that is not a scientifically valid test. That’s the problem generally with cable tests and cable comparisons. There are variables that are not accounted for in the test. Examples:cables not sufficient broken in; cables not cryod; cables’’ directionality not accounted for; the possibility of errors in the test system. Therefore I am inclined to throw your test out.
For me there is no singular most "important" component. Rather, there are important choices in the development of a system.
In no special order, type of speaker, i.e. planar, box speaker, K-horn, etc. The choice here will often lead to amplifier choice for a variety of well documented reasons.
Then there are source choices to be made. Are you a vinyl person, or do you stream, perhaps SACD / CDs acquired over tume.
Are you a tube enthusiast, either amplifier or pre amplifier?
Any of these choices could be the most important to you, but perhaps not me. Thus, the fragmented nature of the discourse here.
So I will share my most important choice(s). I am a Maggie fan and that has driven my amplifier choice as well as pre amp. Others will have different first choices, there is mo right or wrong, just individual preference IMHO.
Your room, room, and more room impact the sound more than you know. A system is a whole, they work together, power cords impact gear more than any other cable, the wrong power cords and can make a good piece of gear sound like crap. So don’t look at if I change one piece of gear as the only thing to improve your system, start with the room your using 1st and in most cases that will cost far less than a new piece of gear. Speakers interact with the room, how does a speaker sound only as good as your room allows. I see so many speakers on Youtube that are big $$$$ ones and they are in a room that kills the sound of all their gear and money they spent, it is a waste of money in a reverb hard space. Audio is like cooking what spices do you like? To each his own, tubes or Solid State or Class D, H, all have their followers, its what you like for your ear and enjoyment, no reviewer can get your system right for you, learn from experience what you enjoy the kind of sound you like then build towards that goal. We are only 0.5% of the consumer market, so we are a rare breed. Which is why what format we like makes no impact in the big picture of electronic sales. SACD, MQA are good formats but the 99.5% of the buying public doesn’t care, that why they all slowly die out, not that they are no good but most people don’t care, they want portable so a pair of earbuds and a cell phone and they are good to go, along with digital radio streaming. Audiophiles are a hobbyist group who enjoy the art of reproduction and will sit and listen, Boomers are the market when they go the market goes with them. I know of none of all my family and their family nor their friends have as much wrapped up in their home system as the cost of my power cords. They got other priorities, like kids, education, gaming, etc.
YOU are the most important part, because if you don't like it, no matter what the accessories cost, basically you wasted your money. Those that criticize what you like are not paying for the system nor having to listen to it . . . you are; therefore, listen to opinions, salespeople and do your homework . . . and if someone is ungracious in listening to your system (not talking about constructive criticisms or sincere help), then invite them to go home and listen to what they choose.
The single most influential component for playback sound quality is universally accepted as the loudspeakers. It’s been this way for decades, perhaps even from the days of the birth of audio.
No two pairs sound the quite the same, sometimes nothing like it.
That in no way is to deny that individual mood at the time of listening is not absolutely crucial to the received perception.
We all know just how good the human imagination can be. In the right mood (and company) I can easily imagine that my Sony television set sounds better than most of the systems I have heard.
Same thing can happen with the playback system in a club or a party, but only if I’m having a really good time.
Later on it sometimes becomes a puzzle as to how I could have believed such obvious nonsense.
The mind and all it’s tricks seem to be geared towards promoting survival and seeking pleasure, and not always towards discerning any form of truth.
Just in case nobody mentioned it already which they probably didn’t - the fuse, be it ever so humble. Another one nobody probably mentioned is electrical connections of all non-audio outlets. And one more nobody mentioned - how many CDs are in the room.
Well, as often, valuable points of view. I'll go counter-culture. Without excellent power amp nothing will sound right with any source, preamp, speakers or cables. After that turntable itself, not tonearm or cartridge, and speakers - any order. Modest but basically good speakers will sing with great power amp, the other way around won't get you anywhere.
Another vote for the room. It IS the most important single component affecting the sound by at least half or more of what you will hear. It's also the most overlooked/disregarded. The majority of us just keep focusing on the gear. There's a reason someone came up with "audiofool"...
The room is the most important part. I’ve had a nice setup in a bad room and it sounded really bad. I would rather listen to a mediocre system in a great room over the highest of high end systems in a terrible room any day. The only exception I can think of might be dipole speakers which do a good job of “removing” the room from the equation.
I think Millercarbon has a strong point. If you change one part of your system it can change everything. If you believe there’s a gap or weak spot that’s probably the best place to start I recently upgraded my integrated amp - the preamp and amp combo added a DAC snd upgraded my phono stage improving the sound of my streamer, turntable and tape deck. And a friend‘s first comment was ‘I can hear why you like your Sonus Farbers...previous experience was they were analytical and lacking in mid-bass with poor details. Any improvement can improve everything.
You hear people say the source? But you also hear people say the speakers. I was a press photographer in College and it's the lens that captures the image on film talking 35mm here. The better the lens the better the image. The body of the camera is essentially a box to hold the film. I would see students in the ’80s and 90s buy the top of the line Nikon for thousands of dollars and shoot with the standard lens it came with. Eddie Adams the famous Time-Life photographer told me buy a $500 camera and a $2000 lens if you want to capture a good image. I think it's the same with the speakers being the lens and the source being the camera body. Also read that someone was suggested, Marantz I had terrible trouble getting my top of the line $6000 unit serviced after it crashed and burned in the first 12 mo. Has anyone else expended this? I know it's a separate question
I get where you’re coming from but personally I think the camera and recording studio analogy works a bit better. Wouldn’t you agree that it’s the microphones and lenses that do the vital capturing work?
Maybe a loudspeaker is more like the monitor you might use to later view the captured image.
Couldn't a poor loudspeaker be likened to a poorly calibrated monitor, introducing far more serious distortions than anything else in the chain?
Come to think of it, even a good loudspeaker will do that, just far less obviously.
Unfortunately recorded audio, existing in a circle of confusion without any established standards or reference points, does not yet have the equivalent of an international colour chart as used in photography (or film/TV).
So loudspeaker playback can only be an approximated guess at what was put down on tape, unlike a well calibrated monitor which can accurately reproduce what was captured on film.
Going further, maybe the captured image should be likened to the finished recording. Once it’s finished, very little can be done to improve it. For sure scratches and dropouts can be repaired the same way Photoshop etc can repair damaged prints but nothing can improve the captured resolution.
You know when you mentioned a $2000 lens I recalled a glossy black and white photograph taken of my sister at school back in the mid 1970s.
We still have this photo and to this day it remains amazingly sharp. None of the many many photographs since have come as close to that one for sheer image precision. It’s almost uncannily detailed and sharp.
Unless I ask her, and unless she remembers, I’m going to assume that it must have been an excellent camera placed on a tripod!
Or maybe the photographer just got lucky. Could happen!?
I can’t help you with the Marantz issue except to say that my experiences with Marantz (1 amp and 2 CD players) has shown them to be unusually reliable products. The only fault was with the CD remote control which needed cleaning and reassembly after many many years.
Rbyington I get your analogy perfectly and just recently improving my source improved everything else down the line especially my enjoyment of listening to my favourite music however all source components are not created equal . A new and improved dac didn’t do it , neither did new speakers or wires or anything else to the extent that I got from improving source components IE Innuos Zenith 3 server and the all in one box Innuos Phoenix USB regenerator, power supplies and data clock.
Of course like a quality camera lens and choice of fine grain slide film back in the day the quality of the recording itself is equally important.
7 years ago this answer would make me cold.....Now it seems the most clear revelation from my last years journey in audio with the experiments about embeddings an audio system...
Your subconscious largely composed of memories also happens to be the most unreliable part of the sonic equation.
Yet it is the one most targetted by advertising and marketing. You will see these attempts everywhere.
There are even some here on AG who seem do little other than constantly attempt to slyly divert some of the available revenue stream towards their own direction.
Nothing can beat real time listening and comparison. Everyone knows this and anybody who has done so will also know that loudspeakers make the greatest sonic difference.
No two sound alike or even close.
Not even when tested under controlled blind listening conditions.
Your subconscious. Final answer. The one variable you can’t control. 😳
Too deep to be attented and controlled in my first 7 years of audio experiments for sure...This is the information field.....But I think that you know that.... :)
I think that this variable cannot be controlled the way the others embedding's variables can be, but it is possible to create bridges that will open more the mind toward a better reception of the information... I will attempt it someday....
Your subconscious. Final answer. The one variable you can’t control. 😳
Too deep to be attented and controlled in my first 7 years of audio experiments for sure...This is the information field.....But I think that you know that.... :)
I think that this variable cannot be controlled the way the others embedding’s variables can be, but it is possible to create bridges that will open more the mind toward a better reception of the information... I will attempt it someday....
>>>>>May your path take you to the promised land one day. Meanwhile rejoice in what you have. 🤗 As for myself I am always moving beyond. Good luck in your quest for the Unified Field Theorry. 😀
cd318 Your subconscious largely composed of memories also happens to be the most unreliable part of the sonic equation.
>>>>Yet memories are what allows you to hear music. You can remember words and music, no? You like a certain song because you can remember it. That’s how you can sing along in church, because you remember the words and the music. You can probably remember entire movies if you work on it a little bit. 😬 If your memory is unreliable eat more fish. 🐟 🐟 🐟 And if you’re going to pretend to be an expert on the subconscious or psychology at least provide links to support your statements. The sonic equation? 😬
If you're actually interested in self education I suggest you start with the work of Sigmund Freud and then move on to that of his nephew Edward Bernays.
I don't approve of psychological shenanigans, but you as a 'businessman' might owe it to yourself.
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