it is the speaker. it has a hollow presenting upper bass, lower midrange and couple that with the overly present lower treble. Makes for a bright sounding speaker.
You'd find this out if you invest in a measurement mic and use REW for sanity RTA measurements @lendivf
Also the vertical dispersion is narrow enough with flaring in the lower treble presentation with things sounding brittle and papery.
So answering you on what to tackle:
1/ room acoustic - Yes this is what to focus all your energies on
2/ change my class D amplifier for tubes or transistors - Nope, not the culprit
3/ find better cables - even less of a culprit
4/ me turning old ? - can be a factor but also low on the importance ladder.
Take the time to get the measurement mic. ge this one - miniDSP, UMIK-2 USB Reference Measurement Microphone
and get REW - Room EQ Wizard Room Acoustics Software
Use this video as guidline to set it up - Room EQ Wizard: Start to Finish Tutorial - Ep3
and follow this method to get the data needed to show you how your speakers are coupling with the room - Moving Mic Measurement | diyAudio
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Since you have the Musical Fidelity M6, I would look at the Musical Fidelity integrateds. I have the Wilson 5.1s and love the tube/solid state hybrid MF sound with them.
BUT, I also use mid-upper level MIT speaker cables, which go very well with the Wilsons (they use to show them together at various audio shows).
It is odd that you say you need 60% volume to get them going, and even then are experiencing sharp treble. Wilsons can be annoyingly detailed in some areas with bad amp pairings. Are your speakers and gear (including cables) well broken in? Definitely sounds like you have a mismatch somewhere.
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How loud are you playing music? It seems odd that you have had drivers blow on multiple occasions.
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@kofibaffour : thank you for your very detailed
answer, it seems to stick with chat gpt’s suggestion.
✅ Recommended Actions – in Order of Impact
1. 📐 Treat the Room Acoustically
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Add thick curtains, rugs, furniture, diffuser panels behind or around the speakers.
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For discreet treatments, look into GIK Acoustics, Vicoustic, or Artnovion.
2. 🧪 Try a Different Amplifier (Warmer Character)
3. 🎛️ Try a Smoother DAC
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Under 40% the sound is quite low compared to the Sonus Faber who have smaller drivers. I guess that’s exactly how a greedy loudspeaker behaves.
Sonus Faber also mentioned the fact that the amp could be responsible of the multiple driver failures I went through, but isn’t a class D 1and 0’s ?
I guess if it had a problem, no sound would come out of it.
I also feel that the Wilson Audio are much more solid and powerful than the SF’s.
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I think you're confusing things. a Class D doesn't mean digital so no. class D is still analog @lendivf
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Is any Class D amp a match with Wilsons? Seems like two different worlds.
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Your issue is synergy.
There are two main challenges with Wilsons.
1. they require very high quality amplification and upstream components including cables
2. they’re very sensitive to room acoustics and placement
when the speakers sound tipped up in the treble this usually means you lack power to drive them sufficiently. It will be more apparent with the Watt/Puppy that used the metal dome tweeter.
To solve this problem you should try
1. high quality amplifier - i.e. Pass Labs Int-250 if you like integrated amps or X250.5 or X260.8 with either Pass Labs preamp or a tube preamp such as Audio Research Ref5 or Ref6
2. Treat first reflection points (space on a side walls between listening chair and speakers)
3. Treat corners with bass traps. Contrary to the name bass traps improve bass if implemented properly
4. rug on the floor between speakers and chair
5. good interconnects and speaker cables (no silver)
I don’t know what you use for source components but garbage in garbage out with Wilsons.
I used Pass Labs separates to drive my Wilson Sabrina, as well as Coda CSiB integrated and now use Boulder 866 integrated amp. You need to keep everything on the level. Wilsons are amazing speakers. You can get a lot of enjoyment out of those Watt Puppies.
Take a look at my system page you can see the room treatments - I use GIK Acoustics.
https://www.audiogon.com/systems/12098
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Sort of an elephant in the corner..OP.. do a google search, or on youtube, for Wilson Watt Puppy 8 and GR Research. There are two videos, part 1 & part 2.
This could be a significant part of your issue.
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OP one other thing I wanted to mention is that an underpowered amplifier is more likely to damage your speakers, especially tweeters, than an amp that’s too powerful. So I’d be careful if I were you while continuing to use that amplifier.
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I agree with @audphile1
I'd address the reason for blowing drivers on multiple occasions before I'd invest in another pair of expensive speakers.
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@audphile1 That was my first thought, but I'm not familiar with his amp.
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My statement “Seems like two different worlds” is overstated. Not true. False. Bias. Not the best choice of words. It’s just you need to be more vigilant in matching the correct class D amp. There is a greater chance of not getting on or close to target of synergies. @audphile1 advise is the right path in my opinion. All makes sense.. Even if not Pass Labs or AR, there are comparable amps out there.
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I have Wilson Watt Puppy 8 and I think they sound fantastic. There are many others out there that think the same thing. They were very highly regarded speakers in their day and award winning and many people find the sound engaging and exciting. Here are some thoughts.
1. Since you are blowing speakers, the most obvious cause of this is your amp is clipping. If this is the case, then, this amp is also the wrong amp for the W/P 8. Be careful, you do not want to blow a tweeter in those W/P 8. What amp are you running ?
2. The W/P 8 require a good quality amp that can handle less than 4 ohms to really sing.
3. Try to put them at least 9 feet apart or more and toe them in. 11 to 12 feet are even better.. I found that this increased the imaging and transparancy.
4. Personally, I am currently running a pair of McIntosh Mc275 tube amps in monoblock mode with the W/P 8 and they sound great. Super sweet, detailed, and musical. Regarding Solid State amps, I also tried them with an old, refurbished Adcom GFA-585 LE and they also really came alive.
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I have been using the Concert Fidelity from Japan ZL-120. Awesome performance across entire frequency spectrum. You may pick them up very inexpensively, if found. I play fairly loud, with no issues whatsoever. I have also used 2 custom Ypsilon Electronics SET @ 45W/ch. They were driven outstandingly as well. However, you will not find those in the market. Please note I have the WP7.
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Mc 275 x 2 ! My dream. I am running with a Jeff Rowland continuum 250. It s a class D 2x250W integrated amp. It s actually a high end amp. My sources are m6 cd ft from Music fidelity and a aurender n10 streamer. The Dac is a ps audio direct stream mk1 cables are audio quest and mit.
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I think we should drill down on ehe blown speaker issue. How loud do you listen? I am familiar with Sonus Faber and Wilson speakers, I have heard them at ear splitting sound levels powered with smaller amps. I think the problem lies somewhere other than the speakers... unless you are deaf and are playing them continuously over 100db.
I would send your amps back to start with.
I don't think I have ever played any of my equipment above 40% and typically that was when I was very young.
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I heard the Watt Puppy 8's when they were released, and I thought then that the treble was kinda "hot" sounding. The bass seemed ok though.
I would think, as has been posted, you will need a more powerful amp with a softer sound, that is able to handle low impedances. Maybe Mcintosh? Tubes? Definitely use copper cabling.
Isn’t this hobby something? Never ending quest....
ozzy
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@lendivf
Yes, the Jeff Rowland continuum 250 seems to be a high end amp. It is also rated favorably at 4 ohm. On paper, it should work well with the W/P 8. However, it is quite dated, so, you need to make sure it is running properly. Any hum ? Check the DC at the amp terminals and make sure that it is less than .05 volts or 50 mv. Note: I was running my old Adcom 585 LE in my home theatre and it started sounding distorted. I checked the output terminals and the left channel was outputting 5 volts of DC at idle !!
Yes, I can vouch for the sound of a the pair of Mc275s with the W/P 8. This will definitely sound good. I like the earlier suggestion of McIntosh amps. Both Tube and Solidstate McIntosh should sound good with those speakers... Also, depending on how much those W/P 8 have been played on high volume, to make sure it is inspec, you might want to change the 3 resistors underneath the "Watt". You can buy the resistors from Wilson. It is an easy change. I recently changed all my resistors and I believe it was a good move.
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OP- since you already have the Wilson speakers, just ditch your current amp and get a Pass X250.8 and Pass Xp-22 or a Cary SLP if you want some tube sound, then, a pair of good speaker cables and start there. play around the positioning of the speakers in reference to your listening position.
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we have tested many class d amplifiers including Ice, hypex, ncore and a few others none of these amplifiers were as musically engaging as our better class a/AB amplifiers
so the first thing we would recommend is trying a new integrated amplifier
particularly a hybrid design
our owner Dave Lalin personally owned wp 3 and fives and setup dozens of pairs of wp over 20 years at sound by Singer,
so give us a call we can assist you.
Dave and Troy
Audio Intellect NJ
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Reading the above comments and other discussions, I’d say you need to whip out the checkbook. As said here, your Class D is dated. It’s time to face the music and write if off. If you’re not in position to bring out the checkbook in a big way sending it in for possible refresh/repair is your last option. My bias opinion is to go the Pass Labs route for it appears to be a good match with Wilsons based on multiple readings on this forum. It’s a safe bet but not adventurous. Tubers have a good argument to go the tube route or a combination of solid state pre amps, amps and tube. This is the fun part deciding which direction to go. You need to get a handle why you are blowing speakers. Abnormal. Usually its the ear drums that blow first.
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@lendivf good dac. You just need a good amplifier.
I’m confused about playing over 40% volume. The volume level on the control unit is not an indication of anything. How much volume range you have depends on the amplifier gain and sensitivity. In example on my boulder 866 I usually listen volume at 57 for normal slightly higher than background levels and at 70-77 when I really want to hear what it’s capable of. The 70 level is usually going to get me to around 80db. Max is 100 steps in the volume control.
My pass separates sounded about as loud with 65-70 in volume.
It’s good to have a large range.
Get good amp and room treatments you should be fine.
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@ozzy
+1 The Watt Puppy 8 does have a notably harsh... unnatural top end. It’s doesnt’ ruin the experience... otherwise it is very good sounding. I have a friend with a pair. Even with very natural sounding tube electronics this is obvious to an experienced listener. With the Puppys set up correctly in a good acoustic space the brittle top end was obvious to me inside of a minute. But if the room acoustics aren’t good, or set up not great, it could be masked by other problems. I
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I am in the camp of the need to determine why you were burning out Sonus Farber drives. If the JR is at fault, it could be causing SQ issues with the Wilson’s as well. The following are potential root causes:
1: Overloading the speaker. Possible. The SFC is rated to 250 W. The JF is 400 W into 8 ohms, double that into 4 ohms. So the amp maximum is a lot for the speakers. But the SFC has a 91dB sensitivity. So I question whether you still have eardrums if you were overdriving the SFCs.
2: Distortion related causes:
- Clipping: Based on the specs for the speakers and integrated amp mentioned above, I do not believe this is a potential root cause.
- Integrated Amp Power Supply: A faulty power supply can have a broad range of effects including introducing DC into the speaker terminals and blowing speakers or causing issues like you describe with the Wilson’s.
- Capacitor failure: Faulty capacitors can introduce DC into the speaker terminals and blow speakers and cause some of the SQ issues you describe with the Wilson’s. Did you ever have it recapped?
The JR integrated is a musical piece. It should be able to drive the Wilson’s 89dB sensitivity and nominal 4 ohm impedance (low 2 ohm) with ease but remember, it is a more difficult load than the SFC. Before you budget a significant spend on a new integrated amp, I would have the JF evaluated by a good technician, or by the JR. Also, follow the directions of all those before me on giving attention to setup, speaker placement and room acoustics.
Finally, if you are set on a new integrated amp, I have the following recommendations in order of my preference:
- Audio Note Humboldt - Clarity and powerful. Three dimensional. Musical.
- Burmester 232 or 032 - Clarity. Less power than the Humboldt and this may not be for you. Commandingly musical and dimensional. My favorite.
- Dan D'Agostino Progression Integrated Amplifier: Powerful. Darker sound than the two above.
- Mola Mola Kula: Don’t let its small size fool you. Enough Class D power for the Wilson’s. Highly musical.
Each of the above has its own sound characteristics so you need to audition and choose for yourself.
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@lendivf After you have had time to soak in all this good advice and you are thinking about a new/used amp, give us what you are thinking about for your price range so folks can update their amp suggestions.
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Hi folk’s
Wow this is my first post on audiogon and I got so many interesting answers in such a short time ! Thank’s to you all. It would take me months to get a similar thread in French. God bless America !
I actually bought my w/p on audiogon, and to answer @hjdca, they arrived fully serviced and in extraordinary condition (no scratches, new pads) from a NYC Wilson Audio official reseller. So I am confident.
I must correct something after 5 days (and nights😨) of listening.
My house is very noisy during day time (5 kids multiplied by numerous friends).
My living-room is an L form opened on the rest of the floor with no door (first thing to fix!). Walls are covered with books on one side and the floor is covered with carpets. A 50-80% volume during the day in a noisy environment turns into a 20-40% at night for a similar experience (normal/ loud) and I do get in that range a well developed bass and a cristal clear treble, which I would qualify as “ Powerfull and detailed” vs “acute and accurate” for the SF, but then I can only refer to a “non official” rebuilt pair of speakers (with original drivers from madisound, but not the ones coming from SF). The SF would start sounding very loud and distorted above 80% and burn between 90-100%. The Wilson Audio seem to be capable of holding those volumes, but I won’t risk it for the moment. I actually never listen music at those volumes, but I presume my boys have 🤔
I am very concerned about those who advised me to have the amp checked, because it might cost me the price of an amp to do so from where I am. I did have a few accidents in the past (short circuits when moving the speakers for ex) and the amplifier did turn to protection mode once or twice. If any one know’s precisely how to test the different components on a class D, I could maybe give it a try with my multimeter. I did compare a class D amp to 1 and 0’s, but it was more of an image because obviously the entering signal is analogic and not digital. Thus, the ice modules have far less transistors and more chips and filters at équivalant power than a class A/B amp, so I presume the effect on sound to be more brutal in case of defect.
My issue is first to determine if my listening disappointment comes from a technical (faulty amp) aspect or an emotional aspect (lack of warmth and roundness of my class D) who maybe was giving me more satisfaction in my small Parisian apartment with bookshelves Sf Cremona M speakers than connected today in a bigger space to bigger speakers.
I have a last issue regarding lamps : we have very fluctuant voltage on the island and sometimes electrical overpower. Of course my hi-fi is surge protected, but I was afraid to go for a McIntosh 275 in the past and having to deal with lamp problems, especially when those lamps will completely change the sound according to the brand you decide to buy ?
If I manage to sell my current amp and speakers I could go for a second hand amp and preamp (although the ps audio dac works also as a preamp) in a 5-10k range.
best regards.
ps there is a pair of pass labs XA-100 for 6k on the French market.
I cannot buy amps in the usa because of the voltage problem so I am looking at 220v units.
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XA-100 are pretty old. See if you can find XA-60.8 or X250.8 and even X350.8. You can drive the amps directly with ps audio dac. Should be ok.
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You do not need a new amp. The JR is a very capable and good sounding amp, no matter how old it is, but as you've been blowing drive units, that may be the whole cause of your 'problem'. The JR will easily drive the WP to loud levels (btw, you've been asked a few times about your hearing - do you have hearing issues?). As somone else has said - if blowing tweeters, it's usually a clipping amp issue - it DOES NOT mean the amp is too powerful - but it may mean the amp is faulty, given your house power issues. If you keep on blowing tweeters, you cannot blame SF for not wanting to continue to supply them to you if it's your own fault that they're blowing.
You also don't mention the size of your room, as a very large room will make any amp work harder, and 'L' shaped room are awful for sound stage creation.
Finally - keep your kids away from your system and get them their own.
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Lots of good advice here. You definitely should replace the integrated amp, soon if it is blowing speakers, and consider separates. Five kids, stick with solid state for now. Having separates will allow you to tune your sound a bit going forward by trying some different preamps. Look for something that offers a touch of warmth to take the edge off of the highs. Pass gear is a good and reliable place to start.
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OP,
Thank you for all of your additional information, But with that, I am still of the opinion that there is something wrong with your electronics. The volume of any of my systems in the last fifty years at 60 - 80% would have been deafening. I mean plates on the wall rattling.... glasses vibrating off the table... I am exaggerating a bit. But walking by the speakers would be a hearing hazard.
Use your iPhone and a SPL meter app, and take some measure ments from a meter in front of the speakers and from the seated position in front of the speakers. This would give us some metrics.
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I am looking @kofibaffour ’s advice who advised getting a mini dsp mic and going for tests. I will come back with that.
Regarding placements and room config, this is an extract of WA’s manual.
In many cases, L-shaped rooms (See Figure 2) offer the best environment for speaker setup. Ideally, speakers should be set up along the primary (longest) leg of the room.
They should fire from the end of the leg (short wall) toward the L, or they should be along the longest wall. In this way, both speakers are firing the same distance to the back wall. The asymmetry of the walls in L-shaped rooms resists the buildup of standing waves (see Figure 2). Wilson Audio Specialties P 18
i tried yesterday to call Jeff Rowland, and actually the man himself come’s in every day, but want yet present, so I will try to reach him today to see if I can get any advise from them.
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"i live on an island with no audiophile shops around."
Move to Des Moines.
DeKay
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Hi OP,
The harsh treble, especially when the volume goes up is often a sign of excess solid reflections.
I'd suggest you consider your room and placement before starting to swap gear.
Describe your room, amps and where in the room you put your speakers and listening location.
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OP.
I agree with GHDPrentice. I also, in 50 years of being in this hobby, never had to set gain at 60-80%. My speakers are only have 87dB sensitivity and my integrated amp only puts out 105 watts/8Ohms. Even on recordings intentionally mastered at a lower loudness like Reference Recordings, 60% gain produces 110dB crescendos in my room. The fact the you have had issues of shorting the amp a few times supports a conclusion that the most probable root cause is an amp malfunction. I disagreed with you that the spend for repair will be more than the spen for a new integrated amp. When I had big Krell separates, and suffering from OCD, I used to have them recapped every 5 years, an expensive deal since big Krells had many caps. The last time I did that it cost less than $2k at Krell. Your old and new speakers deserve a world class integrated, that preowned will be a spend at the upper range of your budget (10k). Usually a diagnosis will cost around $250. I would do that first. The JR is good enough to deserve an attempt at a cure. Respectfully, John.
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Should have pointed out, another sign of poor room acoustics is not enough bass. The reflections accentuate the mid-treble significantly. Adding mid-treble absorbers fixes the imbalance and lets the bass bloom.
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I spoke with Jeff Rowland in person over the phone. He confirmed that the amplifier cannot have a problem and would either work or won’t. The DC problem described above occurs only with class A/B, not D. He also suggested to work on the acoustics of the room. According to him, there is no reason to service the amplifier.
He also confirmed that under powered amp will “blow” drivers, not over power, which also confirms some of the above sayings. The JR Continuum 250 delivers 500w per channel at 4ohms and should be enough for the w/p’s. Listening over 85% is a source of damage to the speakers.
This brings me to the conclusion that I need to get that mic and find a way to work on my room acoustics.
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@lendivf refreshing to have a manufacturer that is pragmatic and no deal in vibes and feelings. YES, it is a learning experience but getting to know what your room/speaker synergy is like in Room EQ Wizard takes out the mystique of many issues people attribute wrongly to other things. Good luck but also man, you listen too loud. your hearing must be shot (a visit to check your auditory health is also something to look at)
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@kofibaffour thank’s for the advise. As a dentist working with a succion unit blowing in my ears 12 hours a day for the past 25 years, no doubt, I’ll end up with a hearing device one of these days. I must admit that I’ve always liked the loud listening, but moderately compared to some guys.
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My Boulder 866 comes out of mute when it’s out of standby at 33 out of 100 on volume scale. You can barely hear anything. Listening at volume 60 is absolutely normal. Pass labs gear is very similar in thar you end up listening at volume 50 and up. I used Audio research Ref6 preamp with Pass X260.8 and going beyond 15 on volume was loud and that’s due to ARC having higher gain. So as I said earlier each amp and preamp is different. You can’t say going above 40 signifies a problem. Also, when I had the PS Audio DSD MkI DAC going into preamp using balanced cables I found that it was noisy if set to 100 or preamp bypass on DAC. At 97 on DSD DAC it sounded the best.
OP - a typical starting point for speaker placement is 8-9ft apart and about 3ft ftom the wall behind them with the rear ported Wilsons. Toe in almost direct to your shoulders when you’re sitting in the chair again about 8-9ft from each speaker in a triangle. And with Wilsons as I mentioned before you need to treat side walls first reflection points and have bass traps. You just can’t have bare walls and floor. You will get the sound you’re describing.
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