Now taters. We are good with each other. I'm just speaking my mind and you are speaking yours. I think from your limited viewpoint all you see is your tv and media stuff of rap. I'm not a fan much of the current state of tge rap genre. It just makes my long for the days when the lyricists ran the genre. Not the sing a long "E mail fake Thugs" lol. Did I say thugs oh me oh my. Great idea for a thread it has been very interesting |
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I used the quote of Chazelle's not to support my opinion, but to illustrate an example of a thoughtful take on rap. Before I challenged you, you said: "It NEVER was any good and 30 years from now ...no 5 years from now, do you think that you will be listening to any of the, for a lack of any better words ; songs that are being played now ???? I think not...I am amazed that crap is still around" Now, you say: "I have listened to 2Pac and Jay-z and they are good and actually had a message......a message that unfortunately I could not be part of nor will I ever understand or know and much less, ever experience..... the life of inner city blacks. Instead of being combative - that viewpoint should have been expressed as I would have least understood more of what you were trying to say - and not use someone else's '' paper'' to support your opinion.......So, then I guess I never will understand that music or it's message, however, I will continue to listen to possibly gain a little more insight. But I will never condone the violence it promotes, the objectivity of women or lack morals that seems to promote - along with a very distorted value system." That's some serious dissonance, though I'm glad that you have changed and softened your stance. Look, I'm a 58yo white guy, so I can't directly relate to the inner-city black experience, either. But I can empathize, in the same way that I can empathize with Palestinians, etc. So, simply understanding that the best examples of the genre contain important insights into the struggles of a large underclass should be sufficient to have some respect for the music, even if you don't care for the sound. Your final line in the quote above, though, is another example of you painting with far too broad a brush, as there are many examples of rap that contain messages that are the opposite of what you describe. To answer your other question, yes, I have listened to the artists that you mentioned. My tastes are eclectic, and my preferences are jazz, soul, funk, and world music. I actually listen to relatively little rap. |
Thank you Mr. Whipsaw - and I really don't quote understand your attitude here as I am trying to learn something and share some thoughts. You seem to be a very opinionated individual and assume a lot about me and my musical tastes and interest. Yes, it does seem I happened to miss in one of you diatribes on the artist(s) you had mentioned that I might want to listen to....so you can relax a little as well as lose the combative position as I am trying to learn a little something here in which you seem to be very uncomfortable with. You pointed out on what I should listen to, but you never mentioned if you have ever listened to the artists that I have mentioned here in my thread or maybe you ; '' I guess ; '' You either didn’t read my post(s) carefully, or ignored them '' to quote you. So Mr. Whipsaw - have you ever listened to them in order to expand your tastes as I am trying to do or has your myopic view clouded your research on them ??? Now .... I have seen Lames Brown and BB King ( to name a few more ) many times - and they have what the others do not have - CLASS ! |
Condescending? No, a statement a fact, which I have supported clearly. It is also disappointing that while you have expressed your sweeping and strong opinions on this thread, you haven’t even bothered to read it carefully (if at all). On the first page I posted this essay from 2009, from Bernard Chazelle, Professor of Computer Science at Princeton: Bring the Noise Now that is a serious look at the genre. Some may disagree with his specific views, but he has undoubtedly given the subject thought. Furthermore, I have twice mentioned an important, early rap artist, Gil Scott-Heron, who will undoubtedly endure, and I suggested a specific song of his. You either didn’t read my post(s) carefully, or ignored them. Heavy D., Run DMC, Public Enemy, NWO, The Sugarhill Gang, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five (try "The Message"), are a few that are worth listening to. Their music and messages are important reflections of the world of inner city blacks. |
Then Mr Whipsaw - you seem to want to carry the cross to promote the idea / concept that rap music does have a ; '' political as well as a sociological importance '' in today's society. Okay, then please do enlighten me as well as maybe some of the other members here on what artists you think have that significance. I am sure that in some circles these particular artists that you speak of, may be discussed as often as say : Bob Dylan , Peter Seger, Woody Guthrie as well as a Sam Cooke on promoting a specific cause or enlightening us on the promotion of individual rights and liberties. I just named a few who came to my mind right away ......as I will listen to them as a student of different musical approaches and not because I was called ignorant - because I won't listen to that medium. That was very a condescending comment - so prove me wrong that there are artists who are relevant in todays; society and who actually have talent .......and please do not tell me Kayne West !!!!! |
I appreciate that you are willing to engage further. While it is good to see you acknowledge that there is subjectivity involved in the appreciation of various types of music, that is only the most obvious point. I have already made another important one, which is that you (and other strident critics of rap) lump all artists together. It’s as if you heard some loud, pounding tracks, emanating from beat-up cars populated by "thugs", saw a few videos, and your mind was made up. Now, I understand that you have a visceral dislike of the genre, and that’s fine. I wouldn’t expect you to do careful research in an effort to root out some rappers who are actually talented musicians, and have something to say. But on this very thread, just a few posts up, I suggested that critics listen to Gil Scott-Heron’s "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised". Scott-Heron was an excellent musician whose lyrics were politically powerful and important. His work was highly inspirational to early many rappers, whose work was in some ways quite different than what you typically hear today. These are the reasons that I used the word "ignorant". I was not using it in the typical, contemporary sense. I meant that your ignorance of the nuances of the genre preclude any possibility of you arriving at a thoughtful conclusion. What you are essentially saying is that you can’t stand the music, which again, is fine. But dismissing it without understanding either its political and sociological importance, or without even gaining an understanding of the many different types and quality of artists, is ignorant. |
In my area rap don't dominate any population or ethnic group. Black population mostly listens to jazz, soul and classical. Hispanic population mostly listens to heavy metal and white population listens mostly to classic rock. Rap is rarely heard from any private homes or car stereos. To my taste, I can't even call most of classic rock music or I can't even pronounce "Rock Music". Rock is rock, Pop is pop, Heavy Metal is heavy metal Rap is rap and Music is I guess something else but rock, pop, rap or heavy metal. |
".....no problem anytime ''....... I get the point as well as understand that music is unique and appreciated differently by all people .........I personally happen to enjoy all classical, jazz, rock...and especially the old '' Delta '' and Chicago Blues artists ......although rap has unfortunately been around longer hat it should have ever been, in my opinion has essentially ; '' dummied down '' America with the thug mentality along with the degradation of woman as objects and songs that really - what is the point of them ?? Have you actually watched the video's of some of these, really .......if have you have seen one you have seen them all ......that's musical , artistic creativity ? I think not ......'' But dismissing it with a disdainful wave of the hand is simply ignorant ''......... I took offense to that comment because as music lover, student of music as well as a so -so musician, I took the rime to try and understand that medium ....... I do NOT se any substance with it. I will add that according to you ......that anyone who does not appreciate say ; Monet, Degas or Picasso as painters would also be considered '' ignorant '' by your comment and also probably not provide you with a ; '' clear, unvarnished confirmation ''......... |
I have made this comment a few times in this thread. Rap, whether you like it or not is irrelevant. The biggest problem I have with it is the way it contributes to the dumbing down of America. It's bad enough we have shows like Jerry Springer and the Kardashians. For being an Industrialized country we are ranked around #37 in education. It would be bad enough if the music was the whole problem. But it is not. The rap-hip hop culture dominates fashion now. It is also the sound track in a lot of movies. I notice a lot of young people speak street slang nowadays. It is an accepted way of communicating. ( Am I am not just talking inner city youth) The bottom line here is that the rap culture has done very little good in this society. Since it has been around our country's English skills have fallen. Our respect for woman is the lowest I have ever seen in my lifetime. The respect for people in general is down. Sure it has helped some people get rich and kept some others from going to prison. But the negative effects definitely out weigh the positive. |
The common denominator that ties the vast majority of the harsh critics – like garebear above – is that they lump all rap artists together. That alone underscores that their opinions stem from ignorance. Don’t misunderstand: everyone is of course free to express their opinions, and it is perfectly reasonable to dislike the genre. But dismissing it with a disdainful wave of the hand is simply ignorant. |
" it is now just real crap / by thugs .....with one step in and out of prison '' It NEVER was any good and 30 years from now ...no 5 years from now, do you think that you will be listening to any of the, for a lack of any better words ; songs that are being played now ???? I think not - can't say that about ' Miles Davis, Frank Sinatra , Louis Armstrong, Ray Charles, The Allman Brothers, The Band, The Beatles ...that list goes on. I am amazed that crap is still around |
I'm quite surprised that no one has mentioned Gil Scott-Heron, as he was clearly a very powerful, early influence on the genre. And if you think that rap is all about "thugs", or that rap artists aren't musicians, then you haven't listened to Scott-Heron. For those who are interested, try "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" and "In the Bottle". |
PS's comments are totally appropriate in light of what others have posted in this thread. Tostadosunidos, if music is organized patterns of rhythm, harmony and melody (well a minimum of two out of three), is it at least a possibility that you simply might not have the knowledge to understand how the musicians are using these elements? With all due respect, while you are engaging in a discourse you seem to have closed your mind on the subject. Still interested in how you define rock and roll. BTW, didn't western civilization start to decline during the heavy metal years? |
Hey, ps, how about you quit taking cheap shops and actually address the points that have been made? Show us some rap songs that are musical (I know a few are out there--I've heard some Snoop Dogg and Kanye tracks that have interesting things going in the background). Make a case. Don't just call us old and out of touch. I've been hearing rap since it hit the airwaves and am certainly entitled to an opinion. Most of it sounds to me like rope-jumping rhymes with an ultra-simplistic percussion track. Stick your neck out, show us where we're wrong. Otherwise you're standing by the side of the road throwing rocks at cars and then running for cover. |
onhwy61, what I was saying is that in my opinion rap is not music. I said several times that it is in the ear of the beholder and that there is no absolute definition. There are, apparently, people who think "Variations on a Door and a Sigh" is interesting and that it is music. Or some of the works of John Cage. There are those who think Andy Warhol's soup cans are brilliant art. I don't. The fact that someone will pay 100 million for a Warhol piece doesn't convince me that it's art. The fact that rap has sold well for 30 years doesn't convince me that it's music. "I trust my ears" is appropriate in this case. The beatnik with bongos is not music to my ears and neither is the man with the electronic drum. Performance art, yes; music, no. Again, in my opinion. YMMV. |
Tostadosunidos, thanks for the well written and reasoned response. It gives great insight into your previous statements. You make the point that music has to be interesting, which I can see as necessary for music to be likable, but not for it (the sounds) to be music. The question then becomes "interesting to who?" Based upon record sales and 30+ years of staying power rap/hip hop is clearly interesting to a large part of the populace. I just think it would be more intellectually honest for you to avoid statements where you declare "rap is not music" and simply say you don't find it interesting. I too don't find most rap (or modern pop music) that interesting, but I do recognize it as music. |
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@tostadosunidos well spoken. You make some great points. Great. I love jazz the most. I listen everyday. It's absolutely stunning the way some of them can play. To each his own. We all have our preferences. I love the original ROOTS crew as they originally called themselves. They are a great band of musicians. They can do it all well. To everyone else. Enjoy your kind of or music. Lol. Don't talk just listen. @taters Rock on! Lol. |
onhwy61, I don’t think there’s a single, absolute definition of either that we can all agree on. Some academics define music as "the art of sound." I find that broad. In school I heard a lot of post WWII classical compositions that I found to be bad and some which I would not call "music" because they lacked the presence of intelligent or organized elements of melody, harmony and/or rhythm. I think a man sitting at a drum kit or a pair of tablas is totally capable of creating music without melody or harmony--but it’s incumbent upon him to do something interesting. A guy sitting at a drum kit and playing a polka accompaniment with no melody, to me, is not making music. He’s giving you one piece of a puzzle that could be music if successfully fitted together. Whereas Roy Haynes or Tony Williams could play a drum solo which would amaze and delight with its imagination, taste and technical prowess. There’s also the question of emphasis--in a poetry recitation or a rap performance the emphasis is on the spoken voice. Any music present is secondary to the voice, more so than if the person were singing and had an accompaniment based on some notion of harmonic interaction with the changing pitches of the voice. If David Byrne were to rap "Psycho Killer" with only the recorded electronic drum track behind him it might be great "performance art," but it’s hardly musical--just boring, repetitive rhythms with a boring, droning voice speaking. When he sings a melody and has a guitar playing chords behind him on the same piece it is music, to me. When the Red Hot Chili Peppers have a pure rap vocal over a funky music bed that’s a hybrid of music and rap IMO. And I do like that one tune ("give it away, give away, give it away now..."). I think its success lies in the fact that the the music is very good and the rap is very good (and they go together well in this case). I can’t think of another example of a pure rap that grabs me like that. For those who think "everything we do is music," including all speech, industrial sounds, squeaking doors, barking dogs, etc., that’s all well and good, but then the word has no special meaning--it then is synonymous with "sound," so why even have the word "music" at all? Just say "sound." Thanks for your time. Let’s do "rock and roll" a bit later, if you don’t mind. |
Yup. See how trump leads this race to run our country. This is what the world has come too. Thug this thug that. Arguments that are clearly "dumbed down" lol. Musical genre painted with a broad brush. I could say heavy metal or Rock is for the dopers. Or blues and country is for the drinkers. But I won't do that. Yup I see a hip hop band for if not for them being on jimmy Fallon you wouldn't even know who they were. Then say they are not a hip hop band. Hysterical! Lol. Y'all win on this one. Lol. |
@taters good job. Lol. Yup probably a little too much for you to understand. I should expect that from someone who just doesn't like it and paints with the broad brush. I get it enjoy your rock and roll. Honestly, certain kinds of music is not made for certain people. Not made for you. Guess why some of these artists perform all over the world. Yup the the 30 year fad continues on without you. Lol. Long live Rock and Roll. Oh I'm sorry I meant Hip Hop. Lol. |
When I was growing up it was typical for comedians and comic writers to make fun of the beatniks. One tried-and-true method was to do a parody of the beat poet accompanied by a bongo player. I ask all of you: is such a performance (the real thing, not the parody) "music" or is it "performance art?" For me, it’s definitely the latter. I didn’t consider it a musical performance when my age was in the single digits and did not at any age, so it has nothing to do with being an "old fart." I can’t think of anything closer to rap than the beat poet with bongos, can you? It is performance art--it is not music of any kind, much less rock and roll. However, if it’s music to you that should be all that matters to you, your opinion is as good as mine or anyone else’s. Till someone makes a better case than I’ve seen or heard (and no one on this thread has addressed it yet, just pointing fingers and calling names) I’ll continue to believe as I do. Please, show me where I’m wrong on this. |
If you ask the roots themselves they have the completely opposite opinion. The are the intelligent side of hip hop.I can see that. My comments about the Roots pertain to their influences and musicianship. But Rappers today don't need or have any musical ability and wouldn't even know the names of the music legends that came before them. I guess the Roots would label themselves a Hip-Hop group. Sometimes the rapping is very musical as in the following clip; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojC0mg2hJCc sometimes it is just bad Rap with a very good musical accompaniment. |
Exactly, onhwy61! Sophisticated music listeners said the same about Elvis and the other Rock n' Rollers in the 50's (Frank Sinatra calling them "cretins"). It appears each generation feels the same way about the one that follows. I don't find that surprising, nor correct or incorrect. Pop music reflects the culture of it's time, and this time belongs, as it always does, to the young. |
Disco was a fad, rap/hip-hop is here to stay. Orchestral music, opera, jazz...they ain't dead, either. Weird Al Yankovic is still around, too, and I've never found him amusing in the least BUT...some people still do. I'm sitting here ripping music into my music server, culling recordings that make me think, "what was I thinking?" Here goes Public Enemy immediately after Paul Simon... (I don't have that many "P" artists, hmmmm) |
